Question for the testers - Wizard / Warlock

[cairnsb]

<DIV>Been reading about the combat changes and how it effects the caster classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems like Wizard and Warlock are being put very close to each other in terms of DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizard - High DPS on single target, lower on multiple</DIV> <DIV>Warlock - High DPS on multiple targets, lower on single</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My question is really in terms of "end game" / raids / high level encounters in groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Should I make a Warlock and use him specifically for raiding or will wizards finally be beefed up a bit (resist on encounters and such).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just seems like every high end fight I am in, I end up being a mana battery for healers...when I really want to blow thing up :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Asterra]

Hi there.  Unless you two-box and put your Wizard on auto-follow, or you have a perma-group with playtimes 100% identical to yours, I would probably skip this class.  We have had our ability to do anything but DPS removed, including any realistic ability to solo for experience, and our DPS has not been upgraded to the levels promised months and months ago in any event.  Granted, things may change between now and the expansion - sorry, did I say expansion?  I meant combat changes; those things that will be going live months before the expansion.

[blynchehaun]

Cairnsb: We don't know yet, there's been no reporting of resist rates as of yet. Which makes Asterra's whinge an uninformed yawn-a-thon. <div></div>

[goboy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Asterra wrote:<BR>Hi there.  Unless you two-box and put your Wizard on auto-follow, or you have a perma-group with playtimes 100% identical to yours, I would probably skip this class.  We have had our ability to do anything but DPS removed, including any realistic ability to solo for experience, and our DPS has not been upgraded to the levels promised months and months ago in any event.  Granted, things may change between now and the expansion - sorry, did I say expansion?  I meant combat changes; those things that will be going live months before the expansion.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Our ability to solo is no different then any other class.  Right now, at level 49, I plow through blue-white solo mobs.  Can we solo heroic mobs?  No, but neither can anyone else (and if they can, it will be changed). </P> <P>Where is everyone hearing we cannot solo?  I have zero problem soloing except on a few white/yellow bats in SP.  Their stuns are a bit too much atm.  Can we solo the same as pre-changes?  Hell no, heroics are not an option.</P> <P> </P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> goboy wrote:<BR> <P>heroics are not an option.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>kiting is your friend.  learn it use it love it.</P> <P>its much more risky now but it can still be done <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>goboy wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Asterra wrote:<BR>Hi there.  Unless you two-box and put your Wizard on auto-follow, or you have a perma-group with playtimes 100% identical to yours, I would probably skip this class.  We have had our ability to do anything but DPS removed, including any realistic ability to solo for experience, and our DPS has not been upgraded to the levels promised months and months ago in any event.  Granted, things may change between now and the expansion - sorry, did I say expansion?  I meant combat changes; those things that will be going live months before the expansion.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Our ability to solo is no different then any other class.  Right now, at level 49, I plow through blue-white solo mobs.  Can we solo heroic mobs?  No, but neither can anyone else (and if they can, it will be changed). </P> <P>Where is everyone hearing we cannot solo?  I have zero problem soloing except on a few white/yellow bats in SP.  Their stuns are a bit too much atm.  Can we solo the same as pre-changes?  Hell no, heroics are not an option.</P> <P> </P> <hr></blockquote>You have to consider what people say vs what they want.It's generally known that solo mobs don't offer good XP. It's generally known that heroic mobs offer the best XP. Apply the same to loot. Most likely, when people say they can't solo like they used to, I take it to mean that they can't solo the mobs that give the best XP/loot. Kill 50 mobs or ten mobs for the same XP. Add in the factor that the ten mobs have a better chance of better loot, and of course you want the ten mobs over the 50 mobs. You can get 5 times as much XP killing those 10 mobs in the time it would take to kill those 50 mobs (or roughly).So that gets translated into, "We can' solo" The fact that the Heroic mobs aren't meant to be taken on by one person, doesn't really matter.All it takes is one person to do it once, and it's assumed that everyone should beable to the do the same.I once read in this section about a level 50 wizard soloing the bastion of flames. He said, that he used potions for power regen and nothing special save the standard power regen items, Robe, Boots and Nightblood ring (This was pre-power adjustment to those items). So to him 54 power regen was "standard", then add a potion, giving about another 29 power regen per tick. So how he's up to 83 regen per tick. Those are not "standard". If they were standard, merchants would sell them. Everything is colored by a persons personal point of view. To some, soloing=the ability to take down yellow heroic mobs. When in fact, soloing doesn't mean this at all.

[Keegant]

<DIV>Short sitedness is a bad thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some people are seeing that their roots are getting nerfed and they stop thinking. The point is that you dont NEED the roots to solo anymore. You cant use the roots to kill group mobs anymore so now the world is ending??? Ya, there are some things that still need twiking, like debuffs. I don't think they need to put debuffs back in, I just think they need to up base damage on spells a bit more to compesate.</DIV>

[goboy]

<P>Stavenham,</P> <P>I agree with what you said wholeheartedly.  Where I get prickly is when people say that all the wizards will reroll as other classes.  My question would be why?  If SOE does this the way they are trying, no class will be soloing heroic mobs.  Can some classes still do it - probably, but I expect the nerf bat to come swinging.</P> <P> </P>

[Asterra]

Well, Stevenham, you said it.  If there is any class that can solo "heroic" mobs, then all should be able to.  The problem is that it is _inevitable_ that many classes - probably the same ones who can do it now, Sorcerers notwithstanding - will be soloing heroic mobs all the way to level 60, long, long before SOE does anything at all about the imbalance.  That is why this is a very, very poor time to start nerfing people left and right.  Of course, SOE has a history of very willingly nerfing Wizards, particularly when it comes to soloing.

[Marvolo62442]

<P>Meh, forget heroic mobs, not worth the time and effort. Look for twinned solo mobs, a white twinned solo mob pays 1.0% xp. (as in 2 no arrow solo mobs, example, weakened wasps in EL)</P> <P>Took me 2 hours and 10 minutes to earn 52% xp last night killing them, and the odd agro mob that got in the way. That was @ lvl 34, not 35. And I was killing blue & white versions. I'm more than capable of taking down yellows (which are like 1.4% xp). I just can't find any at the moment.</P> <P>If figure these mobs were meant for duos, hence the bonus xp, but most classes can rip through em atm. Hopefully there are enough of them around at the higher levels, and I can still solo them after Sept 12th <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Splatterpunk28]

<DIV>I wish I knew the answers posed by the original poster, as no one has addressed them directly. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is an assumption that warlocks have higher AoE dps than wizards and that wizards are higher than warlocks on single target dps, but no one has tested it and said this is true (or I'm not finding the post). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as solo'ing ability, yeah it's a bummer we can't solo heroic mobs as easy as before...maybe it's not possible at all.  But we can still solo, and to be honest, solo'ing tons of solo mobs was usually superior xp for me anyway if you found the right camp (and it wasn't taken.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to get a little more off the OP's intention, there are other classes that can solo heroics just as efficiently as before.  I know  summoners can.  Actually, they can do it even better after changes with their slight dps increase and upgraded pets (and they have always been able to solo anything we could, just took them longer).  But as long as we aren't in the minority for not being able to solo heroics, I personally, won't be complaining.</DIV>

[adamflanagan]

<span><blockquote><hr>Marvolo62442 wrote:<div></div> <p>Meh, forget heroic mobs, not worth the time and effort. Look for twinned solo mobs, a white twinned solo mob pays 1.0% xp. (as in 2 no arrow solo mobs, example, weakened wasps in EL)</p> <p>Took me 2 hours and 10 minutes to earn 52% xp last night killing them, and the odd agro mob that got in the way. That was @ lvl 34, not 35. And I was killing blue & white versions. I'm more than capable of taking down yellows (which are like 1.4% xp). I just can't find any at the moment.</p> <p>If figure these mobs were meant for duos, hence the bonus xp, but most classes can rip through em atm. Hopefully there are enough of them around at the higher levels, and I can still solo them after Sept 12th <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>remember that there is a 50% xp bonus on test <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Stavenh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Asterra wrote:<BR>Well, Stevenham, you said it.  If there is any class that can solo "heroic" mobs, then all should be able to.  The problem is that it is _inevitable_ that many classes - probably the same ones who can do it now, Sorcerers notwithstanding - will be soloing heroic mobs all the way to level 60, long, long before SOE does anything at all about the imbalance.  That is why this is a very, very poor time to start nerfing people left and right.  Of course, SOE has a history of very willingly nerfing Wizards, particularly when it comes to soloing.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I don't think you understood what I was saying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A player comes along and does something like solo a tough mob, like Tundra Jack. They have some great gear, which makes it possible. Gear is what really makes our characters do better, not the level. Skill is learning when to take the right action.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So long as your usable resources (power) can't be easily depleted, you can keep trying. Fill up your car, drive till you have no gas, and the car stops. Imagine if every hour your car could create X amount of gas. You are certainly going to go farther then when your car couldn't create it's own gas. In fact, you can go no stop for ever and ever in your car.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The people that are soloing Tundra Jack and other heroic mobs aren't doing it with crappy gear. They have the right gear for the right job.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Two things seperate what everyone can do in this game. Gear and skill. Not all people have the same gear, and not all people have the same skill. While everyone has the oppurtunity to get the same gear, skill can not be bought.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But in a game where gear makes the bigger impact, skill isn't always a needed factor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've seen plenty of tanks with great gear, and average or low skill do fine. They can rush in and start prodding buttock, without a care in the world, because thier gear used to make them near or invunerable to any damage (those days are gone). This made tanking easy for them. Not taking any damage, you don't have to worry about being healed, the healers don't have to worry about aggro. Not having to worry about the time it takes to kill a mob, don't need a damage dealer, it's a matter of time till the mob dies. Got a damage dealer anyways? Just spam any Combat art to keep aggro, don't worry about doing damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've saw that enough months ago. Have the best armor you can as a tank, and mobs would never land a hit. That got changed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gear, it's what fuels this game more then anything in how good you do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, back to what I was saying. Some one comes along with the tools to do things you normally can't, and everyone thinks "Hey if they can do it, I should be able to do it as well." But they never consider what tools the person had, in terms of gear first, and skills second to do the job.</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>The people that are soloing Tundra Jack and other heroic mobs aren't doing it with crappy gear. They have the right gear for the right job.</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>i've soloed him.  my gear is average gear obtained from normal adventuring/broker.  anyone can get my gear. </P> <P>ball of flames adp3 immolation adp3, all others adp1.  ice comet is only adp1.  power pool is at 3303 self buffed with 233 int.</P> <P> </P> <P>It just takes long long time, once I kill tundra jack i have to spend about 3-4 minutes rooting/harvesting power to get back up to full to kill iceberg.<BR></P> <DIV>here's link to my gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=232188205" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=232188205</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it's super easy to duo him with a lvl 45+ warlock.  takes about 5-7 min depending on resists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>or for the cheaters, you can kill tundra jack break the encounter run from iceberg, and regen much quicker, once iceberg gets back to where you fought him t-jack doesn't repop, and you can kill iceberg with full hp/power.</DIV><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>08-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:30 AM</span>

[Stavenh]

Your profile says 154 int. That is a 79 point difference. How much can we self buff our INT? Your power is listed as 2,476, which is around 900 difference. 79 more int in this case + 263 more powers. How much power do we get from our buffs? I don't think it's 600. Are you sure your profile is correct?

[adamflanagan]

i can self buff my int by at lease 90: dazzling seal - 33 hand of the tyrant - 26 descry - 25 clicky ring - 12 and i can get my power to overf 3k and <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=35443303" target=_blank>my profile</a> shows 2.5k <div></div>

[goboy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> adamflanagan wrote:<BR>i can self buff my int by at lease 90:<BR><BR>dazzling seal - 33<BR>hand of the tyrant - 26<BR>descry - 25<BR>clicky ring - 12<BR><BR>and i can get my power to overf 3k and <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=35443303" target=_blank>my profile</A> shows 2.5k<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>With the combat changes, descry and dazzling seal no longer have intelligence modifiers on them.  Hand of the tyrant does (30 or 36).  In addition, hand of the tyrant and dazzling seal are on the same timer. </P> <P>Clicky ring, dunno - don't have one.</P> <P> </P>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>adamflanagan wrote:i can self buff my int by at lease 90: dazzling seal - 33 hand of the tyrant - 26 descry - 25 clicky ring - 12 and i can get my power to overf 3k and <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=35443303" target=_blank>my profile</a> shows 2.5k <div></div><hr></blockquote>Hand of tyrant and dazzling seal don't stack. The higher of the two is applied. So the hand of tyrant INT is over written by DS INT. That takes it down by 26, giving you 64 int from self buffs, if he isn't using a ring, that's down to 52 int from self buffs.My power is roughly 2800, but with buffs 3200.

[Asterra]

<span><blockquote><hr>So, back to what I was saying. Some one comes along with the tools to do things you normally can't, and everyone thinks "Hey if they can do it, I should be able to do it as well." But they never consider what tools the person had, in terms of gear first, and skills second to do the job.<hr></blockquote>Well that's certainly not what I'm talking about.  I'm discussing the basic lack of feasibility for class A to successfully, consistently and efficiently solo heroic mobs, while class B has no difficulties whatsoever doing so.  All things being equal, equipment and skill are factors outside of this consideration.  To apply the discussion to this forum, it's obvious that Wizards will have no capacity for soloing the aforementioned encounters.  It is also, in my opinion, aloofly predictable that there will be many classes who retain or even gain the ability to grind on such encounters as their primary source of experience.  I am (so far) 100% correct about the outcome of Protoflame and I expect to be correct in this.  It isn't my desire to use pessimism as a guide for anticipating what direction SOE will take things, but nonetheless doing so serves me well. </span><div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR>Your profile says 154 int. That is a 79 point difference. How much can we self buff our INT? Your power is listed as 2,476, which is around 900 difference. 79 more int in this case + 263 more powers. How much power do we get from our buffs? I don't think it's 600. <BR><BR>Are you sure your profile is correct?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>profile is fine</P> <P> </P> <P>for some reason they stopped including self buffs and active buffs in the stat calculations in profiles</P> <P>My gear was not the debate nor should it be.  however, clicky ring (12 int) descry (20-25 int) one of the seals gives like 34 int i believe, I have another 11 int hex doll, thats 82 int. right there if my math serves me right.</P> <P>augmentation ap4 gives like 240 ish power </P> <P>int at lvl 50 is like 4.5 power per int to 200, then like 1.5 power per int after 200.</P> <P>like i said self buffed im at 3303 with 233 ( i think its actually 238 depending on descry) it ranges from 3294 to 3303.  </P> <P>any lvl 50 erudite wizard can have this much power if they took all the +power and +int traits & have the same gear I do.  I do not have any fabled gear either, which is rather nice having a larger power pool than those with fabled, nor do I have any in-combat regen gear. I've seen a few nice fabled items for my left & right side, and with a full compliment of them I could easily attain 3400 + power.  Problem is I dont raid, and have only seen 2 master chests drop in my play time from 0-50.  I'm also not rich and cant afford 8-10plat for a fabled piece.  I solo'd nearly all the way to 50, any quests I can solo I do, any questing that requires a group, I tend to not do.</P> <P> </P> <P>also with the upcomming revamp I have another 40 or so int i can stack on my char from +int modifying items, so my buffed int should stay the same(or a lil bit higher) with the loss of descry's +int modifier, let the hunt for +int begin.</P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>08-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:37 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>08-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:43 PM</span>

[adamflanagan]

<span><blockquote><hr>Stavenham wrote:<blockquote><hr>adamflanagan wrote:i can self buff my int by at lease 90: dazzling seal - 33 hand of the tyrant - 26 descry - 25 clicky ring - 12 and i can get my power to overf 3k and <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=35443303" target="_blank">my profile</a> shows 2.5k <div></div><hr></blockquote>Hand of tyrant and dazzling seal don't stack. The higher of the two is applied. So the hand of tyrant INT is over written by DS INT. That takes it down by 26, giving you 64 int from self buffs, if he isn't using a ring, that's down to 52 int from self buffs.My power is roughly 2800, but with buffs 3200.<hr></blockquote>good point, id forgotten the int didnt stack. i just read the descriptions of all the buffs i use.</span><div></div>