ok so I'm scared now ..

[Chinchil]

<DIV> <DIV>Ok .. I'm a level 20 wizard .. and dont know about end content at all. All this information Ive read makes me worry that I choose the wrong class. I always play the caster(dps) classes in mmos and rpgs in general. I have a 60 undead mage in WoW .. a maxed out fire mage with all the goodies in daoc .. etc etc ..</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After reading all these posts .. I'm scared of what the end game content will be like fore me as a wizard. There are a lot of "wait to see for the combat revamp" type attitudes(which is understandable), but it still doesnt change the fact, by what people are saying, there is no definitive evidince that wizards will actually be fixed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess there will be the same type of responses to this as other threads .. I just dont want to go futher into a class that is broken with nothing in sight of it getting fixed. I went through SWGs revamps and adjustments/nerfs etc .. and never thought I'd play another Soe game again.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anyway , .. this post is really just about being worried about playing a class type I want to play. Should have I rolled anothe class? ranger?</DIV>

[Nacoa]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Chinchilla wrote:<div>there is no definitive evidince that wizards will actually be fixed.</div><div> <hr></div></blockquote><div>That's because in general, wizards are not broken.Depending on what level 50 you talk to, wizards are either about equal or slightly lower dps than Warlocks.  So we're either tied for #1 or we're #2....no big deal either way since wizards/warlocks outdamage every other class on "normal" mobs.  Epic mobs do need their resists adjusted.Those complaining about wizard being 'broken' became wizards with the false assumption that they would be gods.  If you accept that you're mortal, wizard works well.</div><blockquote></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>Chinchilla wrote:<DIV> <DIV>Ok .. I'm a level 20 wizard .. and dont know about end content at all. All this information Ive read makes me worry that I choose the wrong class. I always play the caster(dps) classes in mmos and rpgs in general. I have a 60 undead mage in WoW .. a maxed out fire mage with all the goodies in daoc .. etc etc ..</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After reading all these posts .. I'm scared of what the end game content will be like fore me as a wizard. There are a lot of "wait to see for the combat revamp" type attitudes(which is understandable), but it still doesnt change the fact, by what people are saying, there is no definitive evidince that wizards will actually be fixed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess there will be the same type of responses to this as other threads .. I just dont want to go futher into a class that is broken with nothing in sight of it getting fixed. I went through SWGs revamps and adjustments/nerfs etc .. and never thought I'd play another Soe game again.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>anyway , .. this post is really just about being worried about playing a class type I want to play. Should have I rolled anothe class? ranger?</DIV><hr></blockquote>If all you want to do at level 50 is raid, you will have issues. You could have master ice comet 1, which does up to 4.7k damage and that won't matter on a mob that is immune to cold damage. There are some minor issues, but not class breaking. Like it would be nice to have a better mixure of cold and heat spells. Most of our debuffs work against cold, most of nukes work against heat. So mobs that are immune to cold, we can't really debuff.For day to day, solo group play, we aren't as bad as some say. Ring of cold is awesome, since it doesn't break with damage. If your good, you can truss/tether before it breaks, click off the dot effect and wait till it cycles again and then reapply. This is how I beat the Pit Champion in the Very difficult solo arena in splitpaw. If your main goal is to be the #1 DPS class, start over and make a warlock. I like the ability to pump mana. My main focus in the game is winning at whatever we are doing, group or raid. If I can make a raid or group win by spending some time pumping mana, good. If I make us win by nuking, good. The more times I'm on a winning encounter, the more items I win, the better gear I get, the more money my character makes the more successful I feel I am.And if having to be a manapump on a raid takes that, then I will happily do that. You have to ask yourself, what do you want out of the game, and how I can use the tools I have to get that.

[Chinchil]

I guess ultimately I want to raid in the future .. I'm still a very active raider in WoW and would eventually be a very active raider in this game too. I dont mind at all doing what it takes to help the raid be successfull(mana pump ) but I want to be able to dps too. I like mages so I guess I will hang with wizzy .. just hope soe makes some adjustments .. I want to be able to hit the boss too! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kamuj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chinchilla wrote:<BR>I guess ultimately I want to raid in the future .. I'm still a very active raider in WoW and would eventually be a very active raider in this game too. I dont mind at all doing what it takes to help the raid be successfull(mana pump ) but I want to be able to dps too. I like mages so I guess I will hang with wizzy .. just hope soe makes some adjustments .. I want to be able to hit the boss too! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><EM>Wizard - Wizards are masters of the arane arts who tap into the elemental powers of fire and ice. Wielding these powerful forces, wizards can inflict startling devastation upon their enemies. (From the SOE class decription)</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your not crazy to expect to do damage. The game mechanics are very weak compared to WoW right now, but I seriously think the CU will correct many of the flaws with solutions copied from games such as WoW.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aside from the few who would believe they were roleplaying a wizard even if it required them to stand at the back of the raid and shout "Go Team GO!", many players have expressed the same concerns are you. </DIV>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>Kamujin wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chinchilla wrote:<BR>I guess ultimately I want to raid in the future .. I'm still a very active raider in WoW and would eventually be a very active raider in this game too. I dont mind at all doing what it takes to help the raid be successfull(mana pump ) but I want to be able to dps too. I like mages so I guess I will hang with wizzy .. just hope soe makes some adjustments .. I want to be able to hit the boss too! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><EM>Wizard - Wizards are masters of the arane arts who tap into the elemental powers of fire and ice. Wielding these powerful forces, wizards can inflict startling devastation upon their enemies. (From the SOE class decription)</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your not crazy to expect to do damage. The game mechanics are very weak compared to WoW right now, but I seriously think the CU will correct many of the flaws with solutions copied from games such as WoW.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aside from the few who would believe they were roleplaying a wizard even if it required them to stand at the back of the raid and shout "Go Team GO!", many players have expressed the same concerns are you. </DIV><hr></blockquote>So, you consider a heat spell that does 2k damage at level 50, Immolation, and a cold based spell that does 3.6k damage at 50, ice comet, as weak? Ok, that's your opinion. How does this stack up to other classes? Can you please explain the comment, weak game mechanics? How is WoW game mechanics better? How is their combat better?

[Kamuj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kamujin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chinchilla wrote:<BR>I guess ultimately I want to raid in the future .. I'm still a very active raider in WoW and would eventually be a very active raider in this game too. I dont mind at all doing what it takes to help the raid be successfull(mana pump ) but I want to be able to dps too. I like mages so I guess I will hang with wizzy .. just hope soe makes some adjustments .. I want to be able to hit the boss too! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><EM>Wizard - Wizards are masters of the arane arts who tap into the elemental powers of fire and ice. Wielding these powerful forces, wizards can inflict startling devastation upon their enemies. (From the SOE class decription)</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your not crazy to expect to do damage. The game mechanics are very weak compared to WoW right now, but I seriously think the CU will correct many of the flaws with solutions copied from games such as WoW.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aside from the few who would believe they were roleplaying a wizard even if it required them to stand at the back of the raid and shout "Go Team GO!", many players have expressed the same concerns are you. </DIV><BR> <HR> <BR><BR>So, you consider a heat spell that does 2k damage at level 50, Immolation, and a cold based spell that does 3.6k damage at 50, ice comet, as weak? Ok, that's your opinion. How does this stack up to other classes? <BR><BR>Can you please explain the comment, weak game mechanics? How is WoW game mechanics better? How is their combat better?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I played EQ as wizard to 65 with with roughly 200aa's</P> <P>I played EQ2 in Beta. I played a wiz and templar in release to 50.</P> <P>I played WoW in Beta. I played a mage in release to 50.</P> <P>I played SWG in Beta. I play a Full Template Jedi/Master Pilot, Doc, and MBH in release.</P> <P>I've played AC2, Lineage II, Shadowbane, NWN, blah blah blah.</P> <P> </P> <P>I've played ALOT of MMORPG's. IMO, the cost/benfit of the wizard in EQ2 is not balanced. Wizards are a class with light armour and no heals. They normally enjoy strong DD's, AE, Crowd Control, Travel, Invisibility, Etc.</P> <P>In EQ2, the strengths in the spell line of the wizard is the worst that I have seen in any MMORPG that I have played.</P> <P> </P> <P>I was very biased against WoW due to its cartoony graphics, but after playing it, I constantly found myself saying to myself "yeah, thats how it should work". The beauty of the WoW game mechanics are hard to describe because the the interaction of all the game mechanics that make it work so well.</P> <P>Some quick examples. I don't want to write a 5 page essay on WoW vs EQ2.</P> <P>Look at the kind of buffs a Mage gets. Early on they get a buf that snares a target when it hits the mage. This really works well. You take a whack from a mob, but the buf can snare the mob and give you a chance to get away. </P> <P>WoW mages get some ports. I miss ports.</P> <P>Wow mages get an short term instant-PBAE root with a decent cool down timer. Again, help you get out of melle range.</P> <P>Mobs cast ALOT more spells in WoW. EQ2 leveling largely amounts to killing melle class mobs MOST of the time. I know there are exception, but WoW mobs are more varied from low to high end.</P> <P>WoW counterspells are usefull and fun. They require skill to use well and have a real impact when you do.</P> <P>Its alot of little things that just pile up after a while. There is a reason 2 million people play it right now. Its not because they are "stupid noobs"</P> <P> </P> <P>EQ2 is a BEAUTIFUL game. I LOVE the graphics in this game. I am glad to see that SOE has realized its mistake. I really think they have a chance to make this a much better game. <BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Kamujin on <span class=date_text>07-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:31 PM</span>

[Conequis]

<span><blockquote><hr>Stavenham wrote:<blockquote><hr> </blockquote>So, you consider a heat spell that does 2k damage at level 50, Immolation, and a cold based spell that does 3.6k damage at 50, ice comet, as weak? Ok, that's your opinion. How does this stack up to other classes? <hr></blockquote>Yes, it is weak if it never lands on raid mobs or the mob is immuned to many of our spells.  I think a poster here nailed it right on the head.  If you're looking to raid as a wizard, then you're going to have problems atm.  We're hoping the combat upgrade fixes this, but right now it IS a problem. For grouping, I don't really care that we are not #1 DPS, we do a considerable amount of damage and I'm quite happy at this.  It is the raiding situation with our damage that MANY wizards have a problem with.</span><div></div>

[eq2b]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Conequis wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So, you consider a heat spell that does 2k damage at level 50, Immolation, and a cold based spell that does 3.6k damage at 50, ice comet, as weak? Ok, that's your opinion. How does this stack up to other classes? <BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, it is weak if it never lands on raid mobs or the mob is immuned to many of our spells.  I think a poster here nailed it right on the head.  If you're looking to raid as a wizard, then you're going to have problems atm.  We're hoping the combat upgrade fixes this, but right now it IS a problem.<BR><BR>For grouping, I don't really care that we are not #1 DPS, we do a considerable amount of damage and I'm quite happy at this.  It is the raiding situation with our damage that MANY wizards have a problem with.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wizzies may get kinda shafted with the change to the spell system. Your two level 50 spells are immature, and a warlock can do more DPS for less mana with their fully mature level 37 Nil Distortion, even without the resist problem. Idea was that Ice Comet would become uber by level 60 or so... but that whole progression system is going away now. Ah well, I expect they'll find you something make up for it.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Tar~Palantir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> eq2bum wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Conequis wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So, you consider a heat spell that does 2k damage at level 50, Immolation, and a cold based spell that does 3.6k damage at 50, ice comet, as weak? Ok, that's your opinion. How does this stack up to other classes? <BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, it is weak if it never lands on raid mobs or the mob is immuned to many of our spells.  I think a poster here nailed it right on the head.  If you're looking to raid as a wizard, then you're going to have problems atm.  We're hoping the combat upgrade fixes this, but right now it IS a problem.<BR><BR>For grouping, I don't really care that we are not #1 DPS, we do a considerable amount of damage and I'm quite happy at this.  It is the raiding situation with our damage that MANY wizards have a problem with.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wizzies may get kinda shafted with the change to the spell system. Your two level 50 spells are immature, and a warlock can do more DPS for less mana with their fully mature level 37 Nil Distortion, even without the resist problem. Idea was that Ice Comet would become uber by level 60 or so... but that whole progression system is going away now. Ah well, I expect they'll find you something make up for it.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>True, true.  Its a mtter of opinionm what is worse, the fact that Ice Comet gets stronger by lvling, which at the time is impossible, or that in the near future spells can only become stronger by purchasing new upgrades.  I dislike that we will have to feed cash into sage pockets.  We have the intromission line for mana feeds, how about introalms for feeding gold into the pockets of Sages.

[Asterra]

<span><blockquote><hr><span><div>Depending on what level 50 you talk to, wizards are either about equal or slightly lower dps than Warlocks.  So we're either tied for #1 or we're #2....no big deal either way since wizards/warlocks outdamage every other class on "normal" mobs.  Epic mobs do need their resists adjusted. </div><blockquote></blockquote></span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span>The above clip is so outrageous that I scarcely know where to begin.  It's tempting to assume it's merely a carelessly provocative joke.  For starters, not even the Warlocks on their own forum bother to pretend that Wizards are generally a match for them in dps.  But let me recommend to you a fun experiment you may want to try on your own, performed recently during a lull in the action.  Take a level 50 Wizard with a healthy mix of Adept III and Master I spells.  Take a similarly-prepared level 50 Warlock.  Bring them to Solusek's Eye, down the first elevator, and up to the beginning of the tunnel.  Have one solo their way to, say, the spider area.  Time it.  Wait for repops and have the other solo their way.  Time it.  Compare.  Now, assume a straight face and tell me the two figures are "equal" or that one is "slightly lower".  Oh, and don't lie; very important, that.  Note: For reasons related to the topic, the Wizard may find himself not quite up to the task of soloing this stretch of the zone.  This experiment assumes so such complications. As for outdamaging every other class on normal mobs.. well, that'd be a fun one to try to tell to most of my guild's members, I can tell you.  They wouldn't argue with a Warlock, but they would laugh at a Wizard, and it's all because of parsers and plain old observational skills. And before I go, shame on the people in this thread _who know better_ for failing to jump on the immoderate inaccuracies I've quoted above.

[Kamuj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Asterra wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <SPAN> <DIV>Depending on what level 50 you talk to, wizards are either about equal or slightly lower dps than Warlocks.  So we're either tied for #1 or we're #2....no big deal either way since wizards/warlocks outdamage every other class on "normal" mobs.  Epic mobs do need their resists adjusted.<BR><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN>The above clip is so outrageous that I scarcely know where to begin.  It's tempting to assume it's merely a carelessly provocative joke.  For starters, not even the Warlocks on their own forum bother to pretend that Wizards are generally a match for them in dps.  But let me recommend to you a fun experiment you may want to try on your own, performed recently during a lull in the action.  Take a level 50 Wizard with a healthy mix of Adept III and Master I spells.  Take a similarly-prepared level 50 Warlock.  Bring them to Solusek's Eye, down the first elevator, and up to the beginning of the tunnel.  Have one solo their way to, say, the spider area.  Time it.  Wait for repops and have the other solo their way.  Time it.  Compare.  Now, assume a straight face and tell me the two figures are "equal" or that one is "slightly lower".  Oh, and don't lie; very important, that.  Note: For reasons related to the topic, the Wizard may find himself not quite up to the task of soloing this stretch of the zone.  This experiment assumes so such complications.<BR><BR>As for outdamaging every other class on normal mobs.. well, that'd be a fun one to try to tell to most of my guild's members, I can tell you.  They wouldn't argue with a Warlock, but they would laugh at a Wizard, and it's all because of parsers and plain old observational skills.<BR><BR>And before I go, shame on the people in this thread _who know better_ for failing to jump on the immoderate inaccuracies I've quoted above.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What about me? Can you at least cancel out "King's" 1 star of my posts <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Splatterpunk28]

<P>Hmm.  That "test" is faulty to say the least.  Why?  Nearly ever encounter in that stretch is by multiple mobs.  Warlock > Wizard in AoE situations.  How about coming up with an area with a more balanced mix of solo and multiple mob encounters?  Or to turn it completely around come up with a ton of "solo" mobs with single mobs and see who wins to the finish line (it will NOT be a warlock).</P> <P>You would have people believe the difference in dps between the two is significant at level 50, when it is not except in raid scenarios due to resist issues.</P> <P>The difference in dps varies on how many mobs are in the encounter, how many hps the mobs have and the duration of the fights.</P> <P>If they fix the resist and power issue with wizards then the dps difference is dependant on the situation as to who will "win" the comparison.  If the encounters are balanced, then those are the only significant issues at the moment.</P> <P>Anyway, I agree -- I expect more nerfs for us both in "normal mode" cuz we are disgustingly higher than any other class.  We can also solo significantly better than a few classes (assuming many more classes solo tactics will be nerfed as well.)</P> <P>Let's visualize the best scenario with the combat revamp and maybe we'll both be happy.</P>

[AkashaSh]

<DIV>well i did not read all the posts on this but like i type on every thread i am happy with my toon!!! now i know warlocks do more dps but i am happy with the dps my toon does....now i know our best spell ice comet will not hit on some epic mobs but i have a ton of other spells that will work.....if you wanted the best dps in game you should have been and assasin or an warlock they seem to the best dps....but pretty much every class is nerfed one way or another if you read all the other class threads you will see that if you like mage types i am sure you will be happy with the wizard i all ways play mages too in wow and all and i am happy with my toon i guess you just have to learn how your toon works best for you! </DIV>

[Asterra]

<span><blockquote><hr>Hmm.  That "test" is faulty to say the least.  Why?  Nearly ever encounter in that stretch is by multiple mobs.  Warlock > Wizard in AoE situations.  How about coming up with an area with a more balanced mix of solo and multiple mob encounters? <div></div><hr></blockquote></span>First of all, who are you to suggest that any test I would care to come up with is less fair to one class than the other?  Wizards and Warlocks are _officially_ equal-but-opposite counterparts, per Moorgard.  It stands utterly to reason that, resistance issues aside, any normal swath of encounters will be handled on equal terms.  Don't get uncomfortable just because the reality so thoroughly disagrees with the intent.  Second, a response like yours was of course anticipated, so we did it both ways.  We took the Wizard and the Warlock down the other path (the rock snakes), which, you will be happy to discover, enjoys a much less disagreeable proportion of solo encounters.  But while I won't spoil the results for you, I will at least recommend you brace yourself for disappointment. <span><blockquote><hr>You would have people believe the difference in dps between the two is significant at level 50, when it is not except in raid scenarios due to resist issues. <div></div><hr></blockquote></span>Then I must counter by suggesting that you seem to be hoping that people are totally ignorant of the fact that almost every raid encounter in the game involves AE opportunities, often to a fully exploitable degree.  Meanwhile, it's clear that you truly do believe Wizard and Warlock DPS on a single target to be theoretically similar, which I must flatly disagree with.

[Splatterpunk28]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>/sigh, Asterra.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Asterra wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hmm.  That "test" is faulty to say the least.  Why?  Nearly ever encounter in that stretch is by multiple mobs.  Warlock > Wizard in AoE situations.  How about coming up with an area with a more balanced mix of solo and multiple mob encounters?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P></SPAN>First of all, who are you to suggest that any test I would care to come up with is less fair to one class than the other?  Wizards and Warlocks are _officially_ equal-but-opposite counterparts, per Moorgard.  It stands utterly to reason that, resistance issues aside, any normal swath of encounters will be handled on equal terms.  Don't get uncomfortable just because the reality so thoroughly disagrees with the intent.  Second, a response like yours was of course anticipated, so we did it both ways.  We took the Wizard and the Warlock down the other path (the rock snakes), which, you will be happy to discover, enjoys a much less disagreeable proportion of solo encounters.  But while I won't spoil the results for you, I will at least recommend you brace yourself for disappointment.</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I suggest nothing, I'm full out blunt.  Why would I be disappointed by the results?  If you actually read my post fully you'd realize that I never said they were similar in every encounter -- I said the exact opposite; however my conclusion is that where one is better in some encounters, the other class in others, in the end -- the dps disparity is negligable.  I have no complaints about my class and whereas "solo" single mob encounters can be one shotted by wizards, they cannot by warlocks.  I'm not even sure if you are disagreeing with what I said or just complaining about the official SoE's description, and do not feel that I need to argue the point anymore if you are (read this thread if you want a lengthy discussion of what I think about all this -- <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=12817#M12817" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=12817#M12817</A>).<BR></FONT><SPAN><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> You would have people believe the difference in dps between the two is significant at level 50, when it is not except in raid scenarios due to resist issues. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P></SPAN>Then I must counter by suggesting that you seem to be hoping that people are totally ignorant of the fact that almost every raid encounter in the game involves AE opportunities, often to a fully exploitable degree.  Meanwhile, it's clear that you truly do believe Wizard and Warlock DPS on a single target to be theoretically similar, which I must flatly disagree with.<BR><BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Did you miss where I said "except in raid scenarios"?  I also said<STRONG> if the type of encounters are balanced,</STRONG> the dps disparity is negligable.  So your statements only backs what I've already stated.  On a side note, do you not have any enchanters in your raids that need to mezz?  If you do, then count out any AoE nuking from warlocks.  As far as single target dps being theoretically similar, I said at 50 -- Wizards have better dps on single mobs depending on the mobs hps and the length of the encounter; you make it out as if I said something I did not. If you disagree with that statement, that's fine.  Anyone can compare the spells cast times, recovery, recast times and spell theoretical damage by looking at the various sites that show their descriptions with that specific information.  </FONT><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>I merely pointed out the fallacy of your test theory and explained quite clearly why.  Believe what you want.  As someone stated above, it depends on what level 50 wizard you ask, what they will say.  This subject is old, irrelevant and I'm not going to argue anymore with you or anyone else on it.  I hope for a balance as, I assume, you do.  So let's move on.  </FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Splatterpunk28 on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:49 AM</span>

[TooFarGo]

<span><blockquote><hr>Chinchilla wrote:I guess ultimately I want to raid in the future .. I'm still a very active raider in WoW and would eventually be a very active raider in this game too. I dont mind at all doing what it takes to help the raid be successfull(mana pump ) but I want to be able to dps too. I like mages so I guess I will hang with wizzy .. just hope soe makes some adjustments .. I want to be able to hit the boss too! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I too like the mana regen/pump spells.  They have saved my groups butt many times in non-raid situations.  My group has been in situations where we are all low orange/red health, the healer dies and the pally rezzes...who comes into play at that point? Wizzy! Feed the healer mana, she heals the group, feed feed feed, eventually we're all green and have power enough to defeat the mobs.  It feels good to bring the group back from the brink instead of running if off, rezzing/revving and starting over. It's a bit tedious to do it during raids... if the mob resists were tweaked lower for ice/heat, I'd be happier.  "Nuke nuke, give some mana, regen some mana, nuke nuke". That would be more fun than "give mana give mana regen mana...um....cheer? smalltalk in guildchat?.......give mana give mana".</span><div></div>

[OneBadAli]

<DIV>Few things here u should know:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1)</DIV> <DIV>At level 50 warlocks can and will double to triple a wizards dps in a raid environment (unless that warlock has low level spells and doesnt know how to play his class). So for those of you who say we are only slightly behind in dps vs warlocks your very wrong. The warlocks in my guild double and triple my dps and i have 16 tier 5 adept 3's, 2 incombat mana items and 5 fabled items and i know how to play my class very well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2)</DIV> <DIV>Warlocks use about 1/2 the power we do, and do roughly double the dps, they are way more efficient. Not only that very few raid mobs are immune to disease/posion(warlock damage) but the majority of them are immune to cold and highly resistant to heat which means are dps is a mere fraction of what it should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3)</DIV> <DIV>Warlocks are held on a pedestal in my guild, wizards are pretty much just a joke. That takes away from the fun for me along with #1's, #2. Its not only that warlocks use 1/2 the power and dish out doulbe the dps or more in raids, their spells are just superior to ours. At level 50 everyone says wizards get the uber nuke that does 3600 damage at adept 3. Well you know what warlocks get? Devastation, at adept 3 it can do over 10,000 damage, and can hit as high as 12,000.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) at your level warlocks will out dps you but not by a huge amount, you should still have fun until you reach end game (unless you group with a warlock alot then you will see just how inferior you really are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5) Wizards use to be as good or better then warlocks at soloing, but now after the mob buffs both wizzy's and warlocks cannot solo 1/2 the nameds we use to. So to clarify, its no fun raiding due to our horrible dps, mob resistances/immunes, and the need to be a mana feeder most of the fight.  Now its no longer fun to solo nameds that we use to do (this is probably a needed nerf though, but was really fun and challenging while it lasted). The game just isnt fun for a wizzy once you hit level 50 and get serious about raiding (and lets face it thats what most of us are here for, end game content and uber loot).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, i wouldnt get you hopes up with the upcoming spell changes/combat revamp. I'm sure us wizzies will still be step children of EQ2, and warlocks will be the kingpins.</DIV> <DIV>Why? because wizards can feed mana, evac, and invis, all of which warlocks cant do (well they can feed mana just not quite as good as wizzy) so therefor we get the "utility" and warlocks get the "dps". Well i signed up to be top of the food chain when it came to DPS, i am nowhere near that, and im highly pi ssed off. They can keep the evac,invis, and mana feeding and give me the DPS I was told i would have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Changes i think need to happen to wizzys:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) make our mana usage inline with warlocks (they use less power, they have spells that give them back mana, and their health to mana conversion is more efficient then ours)</DIV> <DIV>2) make our dps inline with warlocks (overall dps, their aoe dps is insane)</DIV> <DIV>3) Adjust resistances/immunities of raid mobs vs cold/heat  to be inline with resistances/immunes that warlocks get with disease/poison.</DIV> <DIV>4) fix our broken spells (spells that arent upgrades but downgrades (yes quite a few of them), and protoflame (borked!!)</DIV> <DIV>5) Get rid of some of the utility we have, because we shouldnt be utility we SHOULD be dps...</DIV>

[Tar~Palantir]

<DIV>Sorcerers are so rare on my server, and I rarely group with another wizard or warlock...what slays me is that, very few warlocks are gracious.  Their victory over the mob is only complete once they shove it in your face that they can do 800 dmg per nuke by lvl 27 and you can do 600 at 35.(I use westfend's ice spear, which is a lvl 30 training spell upgrade of ball of fire).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another thing, minus the training spell choice at lvl 35 from lvl 23 to lvl 37, wer have no BASIC nuke like ice spike, or breath of the tyrant.  Not one basic "deals instant heat/cold damage to the enemy". We get buffs, DoT's, uselss procs, mezz.  We do get Blazing intimidation, but that is on a 30 second timer(it carries a stun).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warlocks get noxious bolt at lvl 30.6, a nice upgrade to FINALLY put ice spike away.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because my wizard has not gotten a real nuke in 12 lvls, I still use ice spike</DIV>

[Nacoa]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>OneBadAlien wrote:<div>Few things here u should know:</div><div> </div><div>1)</div><div>At level 50 warlocks can and will double to triple a wizards dps in a raid environment (unless that warlock has low level spells and doesnt know how to play his class). So for those of you who say we are only slightly behind in dps vs warlocks your very wrong. The warlocks in my guild double and triple my dps and i have 16 tier 5 adept 3's, 2 incombat mana items and 5 fabled items and i know how to play my class very well.<hr></div></blockquote>As everyone keeps saying over and over again, the problem in raids is the elemental resistances of the mobs.  Too many of the raid mobs are immune/highly resistant to heat and cold, leaving wizard DPS in the toilet.  Change the resists, the problem goes away.  Some raid mobs would be undamagable by a wizard, and others would be undamagable by a warlock.<div></div><blockquote><div><hr>2)</div><div>Warlocks use about 1/2 the power we do, and do roughly double the dps, they are way more efficient. Not only that very few raid mobs are immune to disease/posion(warlock damage) but the majority of them are immune to cold and highly resistant to heat which means are dps is a mere fraction of what it should be.<hr></div></blockquote>Well, look!  It's the same raid mob comparison from point #1.And everyone who's saying there is no major problem bring up only 2 changes:-Change raid mob resists-Small tweak to power usage.<div></div><blockquote><div><hr>3)</div><div>Warlocks are held on a pedestal in my guild, wizards are pretty much just a joke. That takes away from the fun for me along with #1's, #2. Its not only that warlocks use 1/2 the power and dish out doulbe the dps or more in raids, their spells are just superior to ours. At level 50 everyone says wizards get the uber nuke that does 3600 damage at adept 3. Well you know what warlocks get? Devastation, at adept 3 it can do over 10,000 damage, and can hit as high as 12,000.</div><div><hr></div></blockquote><div>And devastation, being an AoE, can't be used all that often.  That is, unless you don't believe in crowd control or mezzes.  That, and the damage is spread over the encounter...leading to Warlocks being better at AoE battles and wizards being better at single targets....whoa!  Balance!</div><blockquote><div></div><hr><div>5) Wizards use to be as good or better then warlocks at soloing, but now after the mob buffs both wizzy's and warlocks cannot solo 1/2 the nameds we use to.<hr></div></blockquote><div>So, they're equal...</div><blockquote><div><hr>So to clarify, its no fun raiding due to our horrible dps, mob resistances/immunes, and the need to be a mana feeder most of the fight.<hr></div></blockquote>...Due to the raid mob resists.  Change that, and ta-da!  Things work better for you.<blockquote><div><hr>The game just isnt fun for a wizzy once you hit level 50 and get serious about raiding (and lets face it thats what most of us are here for, end game content and uber loot).<hr></div></blockquote><div>Actually, most people are here for entertainment.  They're seeking to play a game.  They really don't care about getting "uber loot", except as a side effect to playing the game.</div><blockquote><div> </div><div><hr>Also, i wouldnt get you hopes up with the upcoming spell changes/combat revamp. I'm sure us wizzies will still be step children of EQ2, and warlocks will be the kingpins.</div><div>Why? because wizards can feed mana, evac, and invis, all of which warlocks cant do (well they can feed mana just not quite as good as wizzy) so therefor we get the "utility" and warlocks get the "dps".<hr></div></blockquote>Golly...if only someone with a red name had not said the <b>EXACT OPPOSITE</b>, then you might have a case.<div></div><blockquote><div><hr> Well i signed up to be top of the food chain when it came to DPS, i am nowhere near that, and im highly pi ssed off. They can keep the evac,invis, and mana feeding and give me the DPS I was told i would have.<hr></div></blockquote>Please find any place in the documentation where it says that wizards are the highest DPS class (Hint: You won't).  It says both wizards and warlocks have massive dps, which is true for the most part.  Change the raid mob resists and slightly reduce power usage, and they're just different flavors of massive damage.  Each one has a situation where they are better, which is exactly what balance means.If you're so [Removed for Content] off, quit or reroll.  If you're not willing to quit or reroll, then you're not [Removed for Content] off.</span><div></div>

[Nacoa]

<div></div> <span><blockquote><hr>Tar~Palantir wrote:<div>Sorcerers are so rare on my server, and I rarely group with another wizard or warlock...what slays me is that, very few warlocks are gracious.  Their victory over the mob is only complete once they shove it in your face that they can do 800 dmg per nuke by lvl 27 and you can do 600 at 35.(I use westfend's ice spear, which is a lvl 30 training spell upgrade of ball of fire).<hr></div></blockquote>Try getting an upgrade to BoF.  You can debuff heat resistance much more than cold resistance.  I love my BoF Adept 3.<blockquote><div><hr>Another thing, minus the training spell choice at lvl 35 from lvl 23 to lvl 37, wer have no BASIC nuke like ice spike, or breath of the tyrant.  Not one basic "deals instant heat/cold damage to the enemy". We get buffs, DoT's, uselss procs, mezz.  We do get Blazing intimidation, but that is on a 30 second timer(it carries a stun).</div><div> </div><div>Warlocks get noxious bolt at lvl 30.6, a nice upgrade to FINALLY put ice spike away.</div><div> </div><div>Because my wizard has not gotten a real nuke in 12 lvls, I still use ice spike</div><hr></blockquote>That's because some of our spells are broken.  They should be fixed as part of the combat changes, which is a very large part about why these warlock vs wizard discussions are so dumb at the moment.  Everything is going to change.  Until we see exactly what is going to happen, any comparisons now are useless.</span><div></div>

[Chinchil]

<DIV>Well after reading all the posts on this thread and all over the boards .. Ive come to the conclusion that wizards arent the caster class that the name implies. Sounds like warlocks are more the Wizardy class even though they are called warlocks. Go figure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm glad I only made it to lvl20 before realizing this now. If I actually took my wizard to level 50 and had to still go through the same things .. I would wonder for the 3rd time why I would play a Soe game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess I will play a ranger instead till these mythical combat changes go into effect .. maybe they will fix wizards and I can actually play the class I always play in mmos .. and if not .. I'll just give up and go back to wow full time. At least they got mages balanced.</DIV>

[Asterra]

Just bite the bullet and go Warlock.  SOE got it right with Sorcerers this time around; they're merely neglecting the traditional Wizard in favor of their darling invention, the Wizard counterpart.