My experiences as a level 28 Warlock.

[TheWhiteRaid]

<DIV>Since the Wizard vs Warlock issue has been flaring I am now making a push to get my Warlock to level 50.   I had this alt for a long time now, but haven't leveled him much since I was sitll playing a ton on my main.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am going to try to talk without sounding biased and I won't comment on spells I do not have yet.  I have ran the parser in every group I have been in and logged all the results.  Here is my current spell list</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Negative Absolution  (App4)</DIV> <DIV>Boon of the Void (App4)</DIV> <DIV>Putrid Cloud (Adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>Dark Distortion (Adept 3)</DIV> <DIV>Venomous Runes (App4)</DIV> <DIV>Suffocation Breath (Adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>Curse of Darkness (Adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>Shadowsight (Unlimited)</DIV> <DIV>Suffocation Cloud (Adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>Invite Void (Adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>Steal Breath (Adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>Curse of Null (Adept 1)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wasn't trying to upgrade everything because I wouldn't need some of the spells later and also I didn't use many upgrades the first time through on my Wizard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now here I am going to compare spells recieved by both classes with in these levels.  They may not be the exact same level recieved, but they are the related spells.  Once again I will not speak about spells I have not yet obtained.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#66ff00>Level 22 Wizard/Lightning Flash - Level 20 Warlock/ Negative Abolution</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>When I was at level 22 on my wizard I was so amazed at lightning flash because it was a sweet AoE.  I could deal out some masive damage with it, but of course this also attracted SoE's eye so it was later nerfed.  At this point with the way Lightning Flash currently is I would say neither class has it better at this point.  By the time Lightning Flash has ticked for full effect it equals Negative Absolution's 150-180 damage range.  I might add that the 150-180 is not taking into account for mob resists.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will add that Wizard AoEs don't get much better than this spell.  I won't comment on Warlock AoEs till later.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: I guess Neg Ab has a range of 173-213.  My bad. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#66ff00>Level 21 Wizard/Breath of the Tyrant - Level 24 Warlock/ Suffocating Breath</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Now this is one of those spell comparisons that is almost worthless because both spells kind of stink.  They both deal about the same amount of damage (Which that means both are less powerful than Ice Spike).  I would give the slight edge to Suffocation Breath just because of the small chance for a stilfe.  Though as I said before both of these spells aren't really worth the hotkey space once you get some of the better nukes.  It is like comparing one trash dump to another.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#66cc00>Level 23.6 Warlock/ Venomous Runes  -  Level 26 Wizard/ Flame Tounge</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Here is some of the more useful spells.   Currently they both have almost the same damage, same cast times,  same resistance buff of their respective types,  and same tick rate.  So you say "What is the difference?"  They both do not have the same proc rate.   Venomous Runes has a proc rate of 10% against the %5 proc rate on Flame Tounge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#66cc00>Level 25.6 Warlock/ Shadow Sight   -  Level 25.6 Wizard/ Snow Filled Steppes</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Here the wizard is favored.   The Wizard spell adds a small heat and cold resist to the group while the Warlock spell only changes the vision of the group to sonic vision.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#66cc00>Level 23 Warlock/ Dark Distortion  -  Level 23 Wizard/ Ball of Fire</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Now here is one of the hotter points of the debates.   I originally did not intend on getting an Adept 3 Dark Distortion.  I recieved it as a thank you gift from another guild who I helped with the Bastion of Flames.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Though from experience the hands down winner is Dark Distortion.   I have managed to beat every wizard by a large margine any time I have grouped with one so far.  At first I thought "Well maby they don't have Adept 3 BoF." or "Maby he is a newbie wizard."   Though that was shot down when I came across a level 31 Wizard who was using Westfend's Ice Spear and I still had the highest hit and damage in the group.   BoF has a 3/12 cast time while DD has a 2/9 cast time.  Also DD regens a small amount of power on a successful hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Other similar spells not mentioned</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pyre/Suffocating Cloud</DIV> <DIV>Amplification/Boon of the Void</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This next section I will talk about unique spells of both classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Level 25 Warlock/ Curse of Darkness</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This spell is a debuff that lasts for 1:30 minutes.  The debuff is small compared to Freezing Whorl or Steal Breath, but it is nice not having to cast more than once in most fights.  Though the pile up of Nil Crystals gets annoying since I don't have anything that can use them yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Level 28 Warlock/ Curse of Null</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>This spell is similar to Curse of Darkness except it debuffs strength and inteligence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Level 22 Warlock/ Putrid Cloud</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>This spell is a stun/aoe attack.  It is not a AoE Stun, but just a stun with an AoE attached to it.  I find it to be useful since it gives me another stun to use.  Of course Freeze is always better to use if I am under attack, but this is still nice in groups and such.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Level 25 Wizard/ Boreal</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>This spell is a load of trash.  You have to mez yourself as well as the enemy to use it.   If the mez breaks on the mob you are still mezzed.  There is not a wizard I know of that uses it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Level 28 Wizard/ Essence Harvest</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now here wizards get something nice.    You recieved power, but stun youself for 15 seconds.   It is a nice way to regen without taking health.  Not really good for fast moving groups, but it is great for camping or taking a med break.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well that is all I can come up with for now.  I'll try to post again with some more when I get the levels.</DIV><p>Message Edited by TheWhiteRaider on <span class=date_text>07-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:14 AM</span>

[Fongador]

Well...it's nice to see some posts that don't try thrashing one class or the other. I still have some time to go because I'm currently trying to scribe all my spells to App IV (Don't ask...I'm just picky like that so I need to max as much as I can /sigh), so I won't be hitting lvl 20 for a while but I'm really torn between going the warlock or wizard route.

[Straylig]

<P>Hi!!!</P> <P>Warlock forums are to the LEFT when you enter, not to the RIGHT.</P> <P>This is the Wizard forum, where your newbie Warlock observations are pretty well useless.</P> <P>Kthnx!  Don't let the door proc on you on the way out!</P>

[Fongador]

Seems to me that his views are relative since he's trying to compare the two classes as far as what they're capable of in each category. Some of you get so overdramatic and defensive it's ridiculous.

[Straylig]

<P>You realize that any Wizard vs. Warlock debate is so much beating a dead horse that the horse is already gone and we're left with beating the ground underneath.</P> <P>The simple fact is...it doesn't matter right now what the differences are...at newbie level or at level 50.  There are major changes in the works that are being tested, and it's just smarter to put all the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing, whining, and in-depth comparisons on hold until the massive combat revamp goes live.</P> <P>In the meantime, if you want to see what the horse looked like when the corpse was still recognizeable, there's a 'search' feature that will provide hours of fun for you on the subject.</P> <P> </P>

[Fongador]

Yeah...I've searched through the threads and seen a lot of these comparisons. Just seems to me his was one of the more reasonable accounts and frankly for those of us that haven't chosen which path to take we do still find these useful even if you may deem it beating a dead horse. It's when it turns into a "you suck more than I do" or "my class owns you" that I deem it to be a garbage topic.

[Fongador]

Has there been any determinantion on when this combat revamp may go live? I keep reading about it but I haven't seen any determination on when it will be put into place. Granted, I know that means no one may know, but I was just curious.

[Straylig]

<P>The official Sony 'Soon.'</P> <P>Pieces of the revamp keep flowing through test and then back off again....and the spell revamp hasn't even been applied to test yet.</P> <P>Honestly, though....since SP has been released, and once they get back from the holiday, I can see a lot of hardcore work going into it and it might be out fairly soon.  I'm sure they'll want to get it off their plate before the Desert of Flames expansion and have all the combat/spell bugs worked out so their first 'actual' expansion won't be put in place on top of a combat/spell system that is in a state of flux.</P> <P>Of course...remember Star Wars Galaxies...heh.  Their first major expansion didn't deter them from stringing along the playerbase with promises of a combat rebalance...and it wasn't until after the expansion was released that they finished the revamp.  (To be fair, though...the expansion was an entirely different playstyle pretty much independant of the 'ground' combat game, so I can see how they could get away with it.)</P> <P>Either way, it makes good sense to me for them to have all of the balances and changes (or at least, this official round of them) in place well before the launch of Desert of Flames.  I would be surprised if a lot of interesting things started happening on test within the next few weeks.</P>

[TheWhiteRaid]

<DIV>I am trying to post a reasonable account of both classes up to this level to disspell myths.  The reason it was done in this forum is because wizards have been the louder party of the two so they may want to see this.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level 28 is a far enough level to start making some comparisons as you have recieved a decent amount of spells and also by this time you have recieved a good amount of damage dealing spells.</DIV><p>Message Edited by TheWhiteRaider on <span class=date_text>07-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:07 PM</span>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>Straylight wrote: <P>Hi!!!</P> <P>Warlock forums are to the LEFT when you enter, not to the RIGHT.</P> <P>This is the Wizard forum, where your newbie Warlock observations are pretty well useless.</P> <P>Kthnx!  Don't let the door proc on you on the way out!</P><hr></blockquote>Please, he is trying to bring some understanding to both classes.There are lots of misperceptions on both sides as to what each class does and has. Better that someone takes the time to actually PLAY the other class and see what they get rather then just think they know.And here is a prediction. I think the spell revamp will bring wizards and warlocks closer inline with each other. This means most likely warlocks will do less damage then they do now. They will most likely see the largest DPS hit. And we are going to get blamed for it. Why, look how many people cry about on this forum.I also suspect that some of our power costs will go down. They are out of place. But not much so, considering that we are able to restore more power faster then warlocks, who able to restore about the same amount of power, only over a longer slower time.Keep going WhiteRider, I like what your doing.

[Tar~Palantir]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Straylight wrote:<BR> <P>Hi!!!</P> <P>Warlock forums are to the LEFT when you enter, not to the RIGHT.</P> <P>This is the Wizard forum, where your newbie Warlock observations are pretty well useless.</P> <P>Kthnx!  Don't let the door proc on you on the way out!</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Please, he is trying to bring some understanding to both classes.<BR><BR>There are lots of misperceptions on both sides as to what each class does and has. Better that someone takes the time to actually PLAY the other class and see what they get rather then just think they know.<BR><BR>And here is a prediction. I think the spell revamp will bring wizards and warlocks closer inline with each other. This means most likely warlocks will do less damage then they do now. They will most likely see the largest DPS hit. And we are going to get blamed for it. Why, look how many people cry about on this forum.<BR><BR>I also suspect that some of our power costs will go down. They are out of place. But not much so, considering that we are able to restore more power faster then warlocks, who able to restore about the same amount of power, only over a longer slower time.<BR><BR>Keep going WhiteRider, I like what your doing.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>As long as warlocks don't knife me as I sleep, then i could really care less how much they are nerfed.  It's for the greater good of balancing.</DIV>

[Nacoa]

<span><blockquote><hr>TheWhiteRaider wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div>I am trying to post a reasonable account of both classes up to this level to disspell myths.  The reason it was done in this forum is because wizards have been the louder party of the two so they may want to see this.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Level 28 is a far enough level to start making some comparisons as you have recieved a decent amount of spells and also by this time you have recieved a good amount of damage dealing spells.</div><hr></blockquote>Except that it's only a valid comparison of how the two classes work at 'medium-low' level.  As such, it's really not going to be useful for most people because the 20s pass pretty quickly. Also, you are making the mistake of comparing individual spells by themselves, without any consideration for the environment in which they're being used.  For example, I really don't care that Dark Distortion is on a shorter timer than Ball of Fire.  In my usual group, the mob is dead before either spell would be ready again.  The only ones that get a 2nd ball of fire are the ^^ oranges and reds.  In those situations, I've got blazing intimidation, ice spike (x2), and BoTT to cast, then re-debuff the mob (3 spells), then BoF again. Comparing individual spells is only useful for virtual manhood waving.  Whoopie, DD out damaged my BoF.  How about BoF + BI + IS + BoTT on a debuffed mob?  Compare that sequence to what you'd do with DD, and that <u>might</u> be a useful comparison, if SOE wasn't going to change everything in the next few weeks. And let's say for sake of argument that you still manage to come out on top....so what?  So what if warlock is #1 dps and wizard is a close #2?  Really doesn't matter if the mob is burned to the ground in 7 seconds or 7.25 seconds. </span><div></div>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>Nacoa wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>TheWhiteRaider wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div>I am trying to post a reasonable account of both classes up to this level to disspell myths.  The reason it was done in this forum is because wizards have been the louder party of the two so they may want to see this.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Level 28 is a far enough level to start making some comparisons as you have recieved a decent amount of spells and also by this time you have recieved a good amount of damage dealing spells.</div><hr></blockquote>Except that it's only a valid comparison of how the two classes work at 'medium-low' level.  As such, it's really not going to be useful for most people because the 20s pass pretty quickly. Also, you are making the mistake of comparing individual spells by themselves, without any consideration for the environment in which they're being used.  For example, I really don't care that Dark Distortion is on a shorter timer than Ball of Fire.  In my usual group, the mob is dead before either spell would be ready again.  The only ones that get a 2nd ball of fire are the ^^ oranges and reds.  In those situations, I've got blazing intimidation, ice spike (x2), and BoTT to cast, then re-debuff the mob (3 spells), then BoF again. Comparing individual spells is only useful for virtual manhood waving.  Whoopie, DD out damaged my BoF.  How about BoF + BI + IS + BoTT on a debuffed mob?  Compare that sequence to what you'd do with DD, and that <u>might</u> be a useful comparison, if SOE wasn't going to change everything in the next few weeks. And let's say for sake of argument that you still manage to come out on top....so what?  So what if warlock is #1 dps and wizard is a close #2?  Really doesn't matter if the mob is burned to the ground in 7 seconds or 7.25 seconds. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm not sure his goal is to show one is better then the other. But to clear up the different misperceptions between the two classes. I personally don't mind being second DPS class behind warlocks. I don't even mind if their are situtations where a scout class can get higher DPS. I like my class, i play it well, it shows in my success.

[Fongador]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tar~Palantir wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>As long as warlocks don't knife me as I sleep, then i could really care less how much they are nerfed.  It's for the greater good of balancing.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Gah...No!!! Don't even start this type of outcry. Everytime devs start going nerf happy things turn into a massive CF.  Look for buffing the wizard class all you want but don't start yelling for nerfs.  I've seen that crap end up boomeranging back way too many times and devs start nerfing classes over and over again until they just plain ruin classes.</DIV>

[Tar~Palantir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nacoa wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheWhiteRaider wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am trying to post a reasonable account of both classes up to this level to disspell myths.  The reason it was done in this forum is because wizards have been the louder party of the two so they may want to see this.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level 28 is a far enough level to start making some comparisons as you have recieved a decent amount of spells and also by this time you have recieved a good amount of damage dealing spells.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Except that it's only a valid comparison of how the two classes work at 'medium-low' level.  As such, it's really not going to be useful for most people because the 20s pass pretty quickly.<BR><BR>Also, you are making the mistake of comparing individual spells by themselves, without any consideration for the environment in which they're being used.  For example, I really don't care that Dark Distortion is on a shorter timer than Ball of Fire.  In my usual group, the mob is dead before either spell would be ready again.  The only ones that get a 2nd ball of fire are the ^^ oranges and reds.  In those situations, I've got blazing intimidation, ice spike (x2), and BoTT to cast, then re-debuff the mob (3 spells), then BoF again.<BR><BR>Comparing individual spells is only useful for virtual manhood waving.  Whoopie, DD out damaged my BoF.  How about BoF + BI + IS + BoTT on a debuffed mob?  Compare that sequence to what you'd do with DD, and that <U>might</U> be a useful comparison, if SOE wasn't going to change everything in the next few weeks.<BR><BR>And let's say for sake of argument that you still manage to come out on top....so what?  So what if warlock is #1 dps and wizard is a close #2?  Really doesn't matter if the mob is burned to the ground in 7 seconds or 7.25 seconds.<BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>I'm not sure his goal is to show one is better then the other. But to clear up the different misperceptions between the two classes. <BR><BR>I personally don't mind being second DPS class behind warlocks. I don't even mind if their are situtations where a scout class can get higher DPS. I like my class, i play it well, it shows in my success.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I don't agree with scout classes doing more damage than me because they can use bows, use weapons, and wear medium armour. A HUGE advantage when you are wearing a robe or vest.  Although if we are a very close second to warlocks,  ie 300 DPS and 325 DPS, i'll settle for that, so long as resistances to fire/ice and disease/poison are in accord.<BR>

[Splatterpunk28]

<P>Well I did something like this a while back myself.  My main was a warlock and after one of the patches there were all these flames about wizards not being up to par as warlocks.  No one was posting parsings or anything, so I made an alt Wizard and had them both to about 32 or 33 before I, literally, deleted the wizard -- because I found him incredibly boring (roleplaying bit) and I was tired of investing time into him (also a friend wanted the same name so we could duo.)</P> <P>That being said, until 30 I out dps'd everyone I grouped with on either toon, significantly (yes, even warlocks several levels above me on the wizard).  After a while though I realized that I wasn't playing with the same folks, I had no idea what their spells were upgraded as and so really, out dps'ing everyone didn't mean much at all.</P> <P>So here's what I did:  I downloaded statalyzer and started to compare total dps on same mobs with Wizard as with Warlock within different groups.  As long as the tank could hold aggro, I assumed it would be a fair comparison because, well -- I know my own playstyle and never ever am I just waiting to cast a spell.  Additionally statalyzer's dps begins when I land my first spell (when I did this was the case anyway, not sure now).</P> <P>What did I find?  My warlock did about 5% more dps consistently until level 30.  At level 30 my warlock won out by 30-50% on nearly every encounter.  Why?  Not because Dark Distortion/BSS vs BoF/WIS (that was covered with the 5%), it was because Noxious Bolt (warlock spell)...had no wizard counter spell.  I assumed that Noxious Bolt was the counterspell for the crappy Plasmatic Pulse wizard's got at 28 (same icon, same description) -- WRONG!  Noxious Bolt rocked hardcore, Plasmatic Pulse was a joke.  </P> <P>Anyway, I was only looking at dps at the time, as I never ran out of power; though obviously wizards lose out in this regards (and no one can argue that.)</P> <P>I was going to post all of this, but was so sick of looking at the posts and how rude everyone was (and outright lying to state their case), I stopped visiting the forums for a while.  I came back one day and saw a huge revamp was upcoming, so just dropped it.  Alot of the heat had begun to die down and I think SoE is pretty aware that there's not really a balance for several levels between us.</P> <P>That being said, things do change when Wizards get Immolation (and warlocks get no counter spell.) -- I'd assume this would offset the imbalance significantly (maybe this is the supposed counter spell to noxious bolt?  It's insanely better actually).  But, then, BoFl vs Nil Distortion -- warlocks again -- get a significant benefit in dps (and a lot more in power).  I believe if I'd kept this up until wizards got Immolation, I'd see the gap start closing in dps between the two.  Wizards do get better utility, though not much more than warlocks.  If it weren't for resist issues with wizards I'd be comfortable saying that (with the exception of a few levels in the 30s):</P> <P>Warlocks > Wizards in dps (60 to 50), Warlocks < Wizards in utility (40 to 50)  </P> <P>Warlocks > Wizards in mutliple mob encounters, Warlocks < Wizards in single mob encounters at 50.</P> <P>Warlocks > Wizards in power management, Warlocks excel in shorter fights, wizards in longer at 50 due to front-end damage (assuming heroic encounters); however because of the power management issue, if power starts to become an issue, warlocks will overcome the semi-advantage wizards had. </P> <DIV>I'm not sure that any of this is intentional, but I do hope there is a total balance after revamp or at least a statement saying there is no intention in balancing them and which subclass is supposed to have greater dps, greater utility and make that very known in advertising the descriptions of the subclasses.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Splatterpunk28 on <span class=date_text>07-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:32 PM</span>

[TheWhiteRaid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nacoa wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Except that it's only a valid comparison of how the two classes work at 'medium-low' level.  As such, it's really not going to be useful for most people because the 20s pass pretty quickly.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Though keep in mind some of these spells are still used past the 20s.  If not them then then the spells which are similar at a higher level.  Like you may not use Venomous Runes or Flametounge later on, but their respective upgrades are almost the same.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Also, you are making the mistake of comparing individual spells by themselves, without any consideration for the environment in which they're being used.  For example, I really don't care that Dark Distortion is on a shorter timer than Ball of Fire.  In my usual group, the mob is dead before either spell would be ready again.  The only ones that get a 2nd ball of fire are the ^^ oranges and reds.  In those situations, I've got blazing intimidation, ice spike (x2), and BoTT to cast, then re-debuff the mob (3 spells), then BoF again.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I get to cast DD more than once in a battle. I don't know what mobs you are fighting,  but heroic^^ don't drop dead in 11 seconds unless you have a ton of DPS in your group.   A solo mob can still survive a Dark-D hit at this level. </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Comparing individual spells is only useful for virtual manhood waving.  Whoopie, DD out damaged my BoF.  How about BoF + BI + IS + BoTT on a debuffed mob?  Compare that sequence to what you'd do with DD, and that <U>might</U> be a useful comparison, if SOE wasn't going to change everything in the next few weeks.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok though think about it.  Assuming if the mob is debuffed.  </P> <P>If Dark does more than BoF,  Flash Freeze does only about 67 less than BI though it is also a shorter cast, Ice Spike is the same spell, and Suffocating Breath is the same as BoTT. </P> <P>You can do the math.  Besides it is almost an identical chain in the spells I showed.</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by TheWhiteRaider on <SPAN class=date_text>07-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:09 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by TheWhiteRaider on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:14 AM</span>

[Stavenh]

<DIV>You know there are lots of outside our control factors that effect our DPS that people leave out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tankage being one of the main ones. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A bad tank will effect a wizards DPS more then people give credit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The person who tanks for my group seldom of ever losses aggro. It takes a long fight for that to happen. So I can nuke non-stop. If your tank stinks and you have to pace yourself, your DPS is gonna take a big hit. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having ring of cold makes a big difference too. Whether one or multiple targets, I use ring of cold. Not only does this save me from getting aggro for 36 seconds, it saves everyone else from gettting aggro from the tank. On multiple encounters, it lets me tab through the targets. I can easily kill 2-3 mobs while everyone else is still on the tanks mob. And I can soften up the rest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The people you play with effect your DPS too. </DIV>

[Nacoa]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>TheWhiteRaider wrote:<blockquote><hr><p>Also, you are making the mistake of comparing individual spells by themselves, without any consideration for the environment in which they're being used.  For example, I really don't care that Dark Distortion is on a shorter timer than Ball of Fire.  In my usual group, the mob is dead before either spell would be ready again.  The only ones that get a 2nd ball of fire are the ^^ oranges and reds.  In those situations, I've got blazing intimidation, ice spike (x2), and BoTT to cast, then re-debuff the mob (3 spells), then BoF again.</p><hr></blockquote><p>I get to cast DD more than once in a battle. I don't know what mobs you are fighting,  but heroic^^ don't drop dead in 11 seconds unless you have a ton of DPS in your group.   A solo mob can still survive a Dark-D hit at this level.</p><hr></blockquote><p>And I've got lots of DPS in my usual group.   <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><blockquote><blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><p></p><p></p><hr><p>Comparing individual spells is only useful for virtual manhood waving.  Whoopie, DD out damaged my BoF.  How about BoF + BI + IS + BoTT on a debuffed mob?  Compare that sequence to what you'd do with DD, and that <u>might</u> be a useful comparison, if SOE wasn't going to change everything in the next few weeks.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote><p>Ok though think about it.  Assuming if the mob is debuffed.  </p><p>If Dark does more than BoF,  Flash Freeze does only about 67 less than BI though it is also a shorter cast, Ice Spike is the same spell, and Suffocating Breath is the same as BoTT. </p><p>You can do the math.  Besides it is almost an identical chain in the spells I showed.</p><hr></blockquote>Well, I could do the math if I had any actual numbers.  But I don't.Also, some of the spells may be the same, but IIRC wizards get more debuffs at that level.  Stacking all 3 or 4 makes a rather large difference.  And ice spike isn't going to do the same damage when cast by a warlock, because they lack the 20+ elemental debuffs of a wizard.  I'm not talking about a mob that has been debuffed by both a wizard and a warlock, but comparing a mob that has been debuffed by only one of the classes.And that still leads to a "so what?".  So what if wizards are out-damaged at that level.  It seems to me all of the complaints are coming from wizards around level 30-35.  It seems that most of the level 50 wizards don't see a problem except for elemental resists on raid mobs and a small power tweak.  I trust their opinions of class balance much more than the level 30s, because they've got a lot more experience and the complete spell lines.</span><div></div>

[TheWhiteRaid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nacoa wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, I could do the math if I had any actual numbers.  But I don't.<BR><BR>Also, some of the spells may be the same, but IIRC wizards get more debuffs at that level.  Stacking all 3 or 4 makes a rather large difference.  And ice spike isn't going to do the same damage when cast by a warlock, because they lack the 20+ elemental debuffs of a wizard.  I'm not talking about a mob that has been debuffed by both a wizard and a warlock, but comparing a mob that has been debuffed by only one of the classes.<BR><BR></SPAN></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I can think of Icy Coil, Freezing Whorl, Chilling Wind,  and the level 10 training spell (Only does Fire).  </P> <P>Warlocks have Steal Breath, Freezing Whorl (Also debuffs poison),  the level 10 training spell (does poison as well),  and Curse of Darkness.</P> <P>About equal I would say.</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> Well, I could do the math if I had any actual numbers.  But I don't. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>App4 BoF = 384-574</P> <P>App4 DD = 506-759</P> <P>Done</P><p>Message Edited by TheWhiteRaider on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:35 PM</span>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

<DIV>Ok I have tried to hold back in saying this for a long time. Btw I have a 50 swash and 49 defiler so my opinion is not biased.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why not just make one class continue on from the sorcerer - and call it warzid or wizlock. You mention that two spells are exactly the same except for their proc rates - why not make them the same then you mean? Because it would be unfair for one subclass. This is what I keep reading from people especially in this forum, 'take away my evac, take away my mana pumps' etc, just make me be able to do so and so like this subclass here. Why not just stir and blend them together so they are intertwined into a warzid or wizlock huh? Just negate each class's weaknesses and incorparate their strengths into this one whole class, maybe this way it will stop the bickering between two subclasses?</DIV>

[Tar~Palantir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SmEaGoLLuM86 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok I have tried to hold back in saying this for a long time. Btw I have a 50 swash and 49 defiler so my opinion is not biased.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why not just make one class continue on from the sorcerer - and call it warzid or wizlock. You mention that two spells are exactly the same except for their proc rates - why not make them the same then you mean? Because it would be unfair for one subclass. This is what I keep reading from people especially in this forum, 'take away my evac, take away my mana pumps' etc, just make me be able to do so and so like this subclass here. Why not just stir and blend them together so they are intertwined into a warzid or wizlock huh? Just negate each class's weaknesses and incorparate their strengths into this one whole class, maybe this way it will stop the bickering between two subclasses?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hybrids are never as good as they are on paper.<BR>

[Nacoa]

<span><blockquote><hr>TheWhiteRaider wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote dir="ltr">Well, I could do the math if I had any actual numbers.  But I don't. <hr> </blockquote> <p>App4 BoF = 384-574</p> <p>App4 DD = 506-759</p> <p>Done</p> </blockquote>Except that you're back to comparing single spells again. And you're still comparing mid-low level spells. And you're off on BoF's damage.  Are you just examining the spell? And you're comparing spells in the current system, which we know will massively change anyway. Which was my whole point: 1) We can't just look at single spells, 2) we have to consider the entire spellbook, not what we get by 25, and 3) It's moot since it's all going to radically change. </span><div></div>

[SmEaGoLLuM]

I was implying something there Tar, you really think I'm suggesting for a warzid or wizlock? Implying something serious through sarcasm if I was to tell you directly.

[Tar~Palantir]

After all the flame wars, I would(and did) consider that post half legit.

[TheWhiteRaid]

<P>Edit: NM Post is a mess.</P><p>Message Edited by TheWhiteRaider on <span class=date_text>07-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:40 PM</span>

[TheWhiteRaid]

<P>Ok let me try this again.</P> <P>You keep saying to include the whole spell book, but frankly that is the whole spell book at level 28.   My post was entitled "My experience as a level 28 Warlock"  not "My experience as a level 50 warlock"</P> <P>Though when you also say "Don't compare single spells."   it is like saying "Don't compare engine parts"</P> <P>Lets say for example if a Honda car is faster than a Dodge car.  Why can't I compare the turbo, pistons,  or intake valve on both cars?  They may be different models, but their job is the same.  Same thing with Dark Distortion/Ball of Fire,  Breath of the Tyrant/Suffocating Breath,  and Burning Intimidation/Flash Freeze in the chain of spells you gave me.  If they are identical spells what can't you do a one on one of each different part? </P> <P>You are right in saying that the current system may be changed, but then again it may not be all that different.  Either way I am still going to play as my Warlock Alt so that I may have a fair perspective on what both classes can do.</P><p>Message Edited by TheWhiteRaider on <span class=date_text>07-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:58 PM</span>

[WaachBack]

<DIV>Wow....this is still going on Oo</DIV>