Warlock utility vs Wizard Utility

[James_UK]

I have heard people say that higher Warlock DPS is justified because Wizards have more utility. Looking through the spell lists I don't see this. We both get invisibility. We both get mana feeds. We get interruptible evac at the same time they get a power drain ability. We both get stuns. They get a proportion of power back from some spells when they land we get - ermm boreal ? So what is this extra utility ?<div></div>

[Sac_jok]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> James_UK wrote:<BR>I have heard people say that higher Warlock DPS is justified because Wizards have more utility.<BR>Looking through the spell lists I don't see this. <BR>We both get invisibility.<BR>We both get mana feeds.<BR>We get interruptible evac at the same time they get a power drain ability.<BR>We both get stuns.<BR>They get a proportion of power back from some spells when they land we get - ermm boreal ?<BR><BR>So what is this extra utility ? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff0000 size=2>There is no "REAL" issue here. Its all a matter of <STRONG>some</STRONG> Warlocks complain because the Wizards (rightfully) ask for a fex fixes to their class. Some think if Wizards get a Mana Cost per Spell reduction or whatever it is that is being asked for to compensate/equivalate for our percieved higher dps then we (Warlcocks) should Depart.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff0000 size=2>I personally don't want/nor need Evac/Depart. I could also careless about a dps increase, heck if we are supposed to be equivalent then they should make it that way. The other thing is Wizards appaerently feed mana "better", but as I said there is no "REAL" issue with "extra utility" only what is percieved by others who really have no idea what its like.</FONT></P>

[Crono1321]

<span><blockquote><hr>James_UK wrote:I have heard people say that higher Warlock DPS is justified because Wizards have more utility. Looking through the spell lists I don't see this. We both get invisibility. We both get mana feeds. We get interruptible evac at the same time they get a power drain ability. We both get stuns. They get a proportion of power back from some spells when they land we get - ermm boreal ? So what is this extra utility ?<div></div><hr></blockquote> Wizards have more spells to cast than warlocks, so you can have continuous dps while a warlock waits for cooldown.  Please don't compare evac to a power over time replenishment (it restores that 150-200 power over 1 minute did you know that?)  Life/mana tap shouldn't be compared to a utility spell, they are different.  Your mana feed spells are MUCH better than a warlocks...in the amount of power they restore and in the time it takes to cast it.  Your buffs are different, warlocks give power, wizard's frostbound gift gives health...Warlock and Wizard are different..you have more utility and you do the same damage, get over it.  Please don't make me start copying parses into the forum showing how my level 41 wizard friend is keeping up with me a 42 Warlock.</span><div></div>

[Skwor]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> James_UK wrote:<BR>I have heard people say that higher Warlock DPS is justified because Wizards have more utility.<BR>Looking through the spell lists I don't see this. <BR>We both get invisibility.<BR>We both get mana feeds.<BR>We get interruptible evac at the same time they get a power drain ability.<BR>We both get stuns.<BR>They get a proportion of power back from some spells when they land we get - ermm boreal ?<BR><BR>So what is this extra utility ? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wizards have more spells to cast than warlocks, so you can have continuous dps while a warlock waits for cooldown.  Please don't compare evac to a power over time replenishment (it restores that 150-200 power over 1 minute did you know that?)  Life/mana tap shouldn't be compared to a utility spell, they are different.  Your mana feed spells are MUCH better than a warlocks...in the amount of power they restore and in the time it takes to cast it.  Your buffs are different, warlocks give power, wizard's frostbound gift gives health...Warlock and Wizard are different..you have more utility and you do the same damage, get over it.  Please don't make me start copying parses into the forum showing how my level 41 wizard friend is keeping up with me a 42 Warlock.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Post them and then I will post the countless threads showing otherwise. I have not seen to date any convincing evidence that across the board warlocks and wizards are equivalent( notice I said equivalent not absolutly equal, we expect some differences). Warlocks are more mana effeicient and typically out DPS. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>More spells to cast is worthless, how many casts do you think occurs in a typical fight? You need the time to cast all those spells. I can't even begin to recount how many times I am lucky to get a second damage spell in when I group. Mobs die so fast  I will usually get 1 debuff and 1 damage and usually I can't even do that if it's a group of them(this is even taking into account the group debuff).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any post you make better include an accurate gear and spell listing as well. Wouldn't do well to compare app's to adepts (lets keep it apples to apples and not apples to oranges). <FONT color=#ffcc66>Yet again I will defer to what <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=4938" target=_blank>Moorgard</A> as said that is SOE's official position. Wizards and Warlocks are to have equivalent DPS. Anyone who continues to agure that utility offsets this is missing the point as SOE themselves do not hold to this position. Until they change thier official position every person who argues to the contrary is wrong. That is the bottom line.</FONT></DIV>

[SalBlu]

<DIV>You're overstating what Moorgard said, and misquoting.  What he actually said was:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#ff0000>Generally speaking, wizards and warlocks are intended to have the highest overall damage output, with the two subclasses being <STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00>roughly</FONT></STRONG> equivalent to one another.</FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT></EM> </DIV> <DIV>That word right there... roughly, denotes that we wont have the same damage output.  Thus, one class will always have an advantage over the other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why is it so hard for many people to believe that not everything between the classes needs to be EXACT?  What is the huge problem with Warlocks overdamaging us?</DIV>

[stepha72]

<P>Advantage is fine but come on you guys are doing double the damage at a much lower level than us wizards.  I was grouped with a warlock the other day who was 7 levels below me doing double...yes you heard me correctly double the damage with a couple of spells.  </P> <P> </P> <P>My ball of flames at adept 3 does a max of 960 damage (I'm level 49 by the way).  I've seen Warlocks at 38-42 doing 1700 points of damage 2000 points of damage.  I mean we are suppose to be "roughly" equivalent.  But I would say thats more than rough.    Our damage spells need to be increased (not decrease the warlock).  I'm also not saying we need to outdamage you but it should be comparable since we are in the same subclass</P>

[SalBlu]

I dont think we need damage upgraded at all.  No reason for it.  IMO there's nothing wrong with Warlocks doing more damage than us.

[Frozen]

<span><blockquote><hr>stepha72 wrote:<p>My ball of flames at adept 3 does a max of 960 damage (I'm level 49 by the way).  I've seen Warlocks at 38-42 doing 1700 points of damage 2000 points of damage.  I mean we are suppose to be "roughly" equivalent.  But I would say thats more than rough.    Our damage spells need to be increased (not decrease the warlock).  I'm also not saying we need to outdamage you but it should be comparable since we are in the same subclass</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>     Nil Distortion is on a  18 second  recasttime with 2 second casttime   so damage per second is 2000 / 20 = 100 dps.     Ball of flames is on 6 seconds recasttime with 2 second casttime so damage per second is 960 / 8 = 120 dps. You are infact doing 20% more damage with that spell alone. </span><div></div>

[Skwor]

<P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>SalBluee even roughly equivalent means equal on some accounts. If I remember correctly even you have conceded that on raids wizards are lacking. Let’s practice a little intellectual honesty here. SOE's position is equivalent. Warlocks are disease and poison, wizards are fire and ice, both classes are supposed to be equivalent. Ergo for mobs one would expect resistances would be about split and wizards shine in one area (elemental) and warlocks the other (biological). It's easily shown that this isn't happening as most raid mobs of value are heavily leaning against a wizard’s specialty.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Let’s try something. I was a proponent before the big DPS increase for mages which finally did happen because it was an issue. Even then, when it was egregiously obvious, some would argue that wizards had no problems. After the changes I glibly posted an "I told you so post." Since several of you are so sure there is little or no problem lets put some cyber pride on the line. If in the end I am wrong I will gladly post a small but flattering post of those who believed opposite of me (who have posted in response to my posts) acknowledging their superiority and keen insights. If on the other hand, it turns out wizards were lacking, would you (those who wish to play) do the same. That is, if I am proved right and wizards see an increase in their DPS relative to what the situation is now and to those classes in question? :smileyvery-happy:</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Oh, and I understand you are fine with warlocks outdamaging us. But that really isn't the issue, again <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=4938" target=_blank>Moorgard </A>has said we are to be equivalent(not perfectly equal mind you). So that statement alone which you have made is not in algnment with the designers of the game. The designers of the game disagree with your opinion.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=3>Also I would argue I did not misquote. I paraphrased (notice the lack of quotes in my previous statment we are discussing) then I put a link to the direct quote. I don't see how that is misquioting at all. since you referenced a specific line from his statement let me do so as well <FONT color=#ffcc99>"</FONT><FONT color=#ffcc99>In general, <FONT color=#ff6666>wizard</FONT>/warlock damage will be highest, though there is no iron-clad guarantee that this will be the case in every possible situation."</FONT> Since you made quite the emphasis on roughly allow me to make the emphasis on his placing wizard before warlock. Would that imply wizards would perhaps have an edge(of course not). No, I think you are actually overstating his words and not I understating him.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Skwor on <SPAN class=date_text>06-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:50 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Skwor on <span class=date_text>06-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:07 PM</span>

[Tar~Palantir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SalBluee wrote:<BR>I dont think we need damage upgraded at all.  No reason for it.  IMO there's nothing wrong with Warlocks doing more damage than us. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>SalBluee, since you seem to enjoy being gimped, you should go play an enchanter or a mystic, you would be in [Removed for Content] nirvana.</P> <P> </P>

[Stavenh]

<P>When people point out that warlocks do more damage in raids then wizards do, that has nothing to do with the class, but how they built the mobs. It could easily be the other way around.</P> <P>Sony needs to fix the mobs, not up our damage to make us equal on raids to warlocks.</P>

[Tabemo]

I think it would be cool if they restored our pulse line to how it was a long long time ago.  Yeah... I'd like that a lot. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> <div></div>

[trysta]

<blockquote><hr>SalBluee wrote:<DIV>You're overstating what Moorgard said, and misquoting.  What he actually said was:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#ff0000>Generally speaking, wizards and warlocks are intended to have the highest overall damage output, with the two subclasses being <STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00>roughly</FONT></STRONG> equivalent to one another.</FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT></EM> </DIV> <DIV>That word right there... roughly, denotes that we wont have the same damage output.  Thus, one class will always have an advantage over the other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why is it so hard for many people to believe that not everything between the classes needs to be EXACT?  What is the huge problem with Warlocks overdamaging us?</DIV><hr></blockquote>The huge problem with Warlocks overdamaging us is that there is no compensation for the disparity between the two classes. I got into an argument with a warlock the other day about the damage disparity, and she claimed, "But you guys have more utility." I laughed. And laughed. And then called her insane.Really, who notices whether I have Augementation up or not? Who cares if Hand of the Tyrant is active? No one. Depart has a 5 second cast timer. When a group is in a position to need an evac, the main tanks already down, and the mobs are most likely beating on the wizard. I have yet to successfully evac a group in a situation like that because of the long cast time coupled with constant interruptions from a mob's attacks. At least 7 other classes that I can think of have this ability, and most if not all can at least match us DPS-wise. Our damage-per-power ratio is ridiculous. At the end of a normal battle, who's the only guy cannibalizing and stunning himself because he's OOP? You named it, the Wizard.So while we may not need to be EXACT in terms of DPS, there definitely needs to be something changed to either our damage, damage-per-power ratio, or greatly increase our utility (which I'd rather not happen). I personally didn't pick the wizard class to be a mana battery, but to deal awesome elemental damage.Fix me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[tiki-jiki]

/beats a dead horse <div></div>

[TheWhiteRaid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Frozen01 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR><BR>    Nil Distortion is on a  18 second  recasttime with 2 second casttime   so damage per second is 2000 / 20 = 100 dps.<BR>    Ball of flames is on 6 seconds recasttime with 2 second casttime so damage per second is 960 / 8 = 120 dps.<BR><BR><BR>You are infact doing 20% more damage with that spell alone. <BR><BR></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>First of all the damage range on BoF is 633-949.  960 is possible, but requires some good debuffs.</DIV> <DIV>Second the damage range on Nil is 1404-2106 not 2000.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are going to use an ideal hit for BoF you had better do the same for Nil since 100+ damage makes a heck of a difference.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I get BoF 118.63 and for Nil 105.3 which is a good sized difference from what you wrote.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides you also fail to take into account that Ball of Flames has the mana cost of 196 per cast where as Nil is 196 -136 = 60.   So sure I can out DPS you if we only use that spell, but I am also going to burn mana twice as fast as you.  Running out of mana tends to ruin DPS does it not?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The DPM (Damage per Mana) of BoF is 4.84 where Nil is 35.1</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Though this is all trivial.   Nil Distortion has better DPS than Ice Comet, but does that mean it is the better of the two spells?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by TheWhiteRaider on <span class=date_text>06-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:08 AM</span>

[Tar~Palantir]

<P>I love when the warlcoks come to this forum telling WIZARDS that there is no problem.  </P> <P>7 spells(that are really not desired) do not justify the amt of dmg we do.</P> <P>See my sig.</P> <P> </P>

[Skwor]

<DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Stavenham, I agree Sony needs to fix mobs and this will make a huge difference on raids. I don't necessarily agree we would then be equivalent to warlocks. I still believe the mana to damage ratio needs to be adjusted. DPS may be pretty close but DPB (damage per battle) is not and if you have ever been to Vex Thal in EQ1 you'll immediately realize DPB was hugely important. I think the ratio's need to be a little closer between our spells; if we run out of mana on a fight and a warlock is still easily nuking away, I see that as a disparity still.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>I realize this isn't EQ1, however, I also believe they will mirror many aspects of EQ 1 for combat and eventually raids. It is my belief that if we continue in our current state, as expansions occurs, we will see this problem magnified many fold.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>BTW I don't care if our damage goes down or up, I care that we see a reasonable balance between us, warlocks and the other classes. SOE could easily downgrade all the classes and downgrade the wizard a smaller amount than most, also adjust mob resistances, and this could have the same result from my perspective.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P></DIV>

[Tar~Palantir]

Nerfing is a last resort balancing technique for those with common sense.

[trysta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tiki-jiki wrote:<BR>/beats a dead horse<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It isn't a dead horse if it's still a very valid topic :smileymad:

[Stavenh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skwor wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Stavenham, I agree Sony needs to fix mobs and this will make a huge difference on raids. I don't necessarily agree we would then be equivalent to warlocks. I still believe the mana to damage ratio needs to be adjusted. DPS may be pretty close but DPB (damage per battle) is not and if you have ever been to Vex Thal in EQ1 you'll immediately realize DPB was hugely important. I think the ratio's need to be a little closer between our spells; if we run out of mana on a fight and a warlock is still easily nuking away, I see that as a disparity still.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>I realize this isn't EQ1, however, I also believe they will mirror many aspects of EQ 1 for combat and eventually raids. It is my belief that if we continue in our current state, as expansions occurs, we will see this problem magnified many fold.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>BTW I don't care if our damage goes down or up, I care that we see a reasonable balance between us, warlocks and the other classes. SOE could easily downgrade all the classes and downgrade the wizard a smaller amount than most, also adjust mob resistances, and this could have the same result from my perspective.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P></P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I didn't say by fixing mobs, we would be equal to warlocks. I said that trying to make us equal to warlocks won't fix the problem. IE, if our damage against raid mobs suck, raising it to what warlocks do isn't the solution.</P> <P>If raid mobs didn't resist or weren't immune to our spells, our damage would be high, maybe not as high as warlocks, but certainly better then being mana pumps.</P> <P>Our damage is good. Some of the best. But since mobs aren't really well thought out, we get screwed, just like how scouts get screwed, because so many mobs are resistant to slashing and piercing.<BR></P>

[Cecil_Stri]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Frozen01 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stepha72 wrote:<BR> <P>My ball of flames at adept 3 does a max of 960 damage (I'm level 49 by the way).  I've seen Warlocks at 38-42 doing 1700 points of damage 2000 points of damage.  I mean we are suppose to be "roughly" equivalent.  But I would say thats more than rough.    Our damage spells need to be increased (not decrease the warlock).  I'm also not saying we need to outdamage you but it should be comparable since we are in the same subclass</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>    Nil Distortion is on a  18 second  recasttime with 2 second casttime   so damage per second is 2000 / 20 = 100 dps.<BR>    Ball of flames is on 6 seconds recasttime with 2 second casttime so damage per second is 960 / 8 = 120 dps.<BR><BR><BR>You are infact doing 20% more damage with that spell alone. <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes if are only spells were these... we would do more damage... you CANNOT put recasts in the equation unless you put the spells you cast while its cooling down in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is what its gotta look like... yours does 1000 dps for casting this one spell (2 seconds 2k damage)..  Ours does 480.  After that big dps differance you start casting your weaker dps spells just like us and we do get to cast it again right after (but two casts don't even equal the one cast of yours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also you gotta put the casting time in ours due to the fact after the first time we cast it its not like ours instantly casts again.. so refresh for another to land is 10 seconds</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Main thing is... i have all my adepts.. and out damage most everyone.. but one of my best friends is a warlock and when i was 50 and he was 47 he equaled my damage... (blew me away once he had devastation)</DIV>

[ailees]

Question is about <b>UTILITY</b> <u>not </u>another DPS topic. Do you think a wizzard is very usefull or not ? more than a warlock ? much more ? not really ? question is <u>NOT </u>do you love being a mana pump ? do you love being useful ? do you love being stuned 50% of your raid playing time ? <div></div>

[Skwor]

<P>There is no serious functioning utlilty for a wizard other than DPS and mana pumping(which is the only utlility that other classes find useful). Therefore, the question is about DPS and mana pumping. DPS and mana pumping are the only things other classes look to us for. Seriously, how many times have we been asked for that oh so popular evac, or that sweet invis. I know, how about our buffs? Wait, other classes can do better there, except for some elemental resistances. No, utility and wizard are not things that go together. </P> <P>What I think so many continue to fail to understand is a wizard and warlock are complimentary classes, where they excel in poison/disease we are to excel in fire and ice. As such we should be equivalent in our areas of specialization. UTILITY has nothing to do with it. In fact show me where SOE has ever placed any extra focus on utility for a wizard, or for a wizard compared to a warlock. It's not there becuase they see us as one class with different areas of specialization for damage(imo).</P> <p>Message Edited by Skwor on <span class=date_text>06-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:46 AM</span>

[Tar~Palantir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ailees wrote:<BR>Question is about <B>UTILITY</B><BR><U>not </U>another DPS topic.<BR>Do you think a wizzard is very usefull or not ?<BR>more than a warlock ? much more ? not really ?<BR><BR>question is <U>NOT </U>do you love being a mana pump ? do you love being useful ? do you love being stuned 50% of your raid playing time ?<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I like the way you put it.  5 stars for you.  I know i will not be having fun stunning myself so i can be a manastone that speaks English.  Wizards, att he lowest common denominator, are the same as a god damned inanimate object...the manastone. BTW, if the tanks and healers have those we may be even LESS useful....</DIV>

[trysta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tar~Palantir wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>... Wizards, att he lowest common denominator, are the same as a god damned inanimate object...the manastone. BTW, if the tanks and healers have those we may be even LESS useful....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>As ridiculous as this sounds, I find myself agreeing with this more and more everytime I log in. You pretty much just summed up the entire problem with high-end Wizards. Good job :smileywink:

[Tar~Palantir]

Yes...my new sig will read. I cannot believe I am being replaced by a god damned [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing manastone. I AM A HUMAN BEING, NOT A ROCK SPATTERED WITH PIXIE DUST. :smileywink:

[Kaeylum]

<DIV>As a 42 warlock i will say this, i group with a 45 wizzy, and i do the same dps as he does, maybe a little more.  Now that having been said.....i'm jelous of him.  His 36sec root, is better.  Ours is at the moment is aoe, so i'm constantly pulling adds.  His power replenishment is better, especially the power to other players spells.  The one thing, imo, that give warlocks a advantage is our low casting cost, coupled with the fact that most of our nukes give us power back.  All in all i think the real difference in our classes, is that warlock fluff spells roxxor.....</DIV>

[TheWhiteRaid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaeylum wrote:<BR> <DIV>As a 42 warlock i will say this, i group with a 45 wizzy, and i do the same dps as he does, maybe a little more.  Now that having been said.....i'm jelous of him.  His 36sec root, is better.  Ours is at the moment is aoe, so i'm constantly pulling adds.  His power replenishment is better, especially the power to other players spells.  The one thing, imo, that give warlocks a advantage is our low casting cost, coupled with the fact that most of our nukes give us power back.  All in all i think the real difference in our classes, is that warlock fluff spells roxxor.....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Warlock's health to power is better, but Wizards do also have the essence harvest line.   Though of course that drops you out of the battle for 15 seconds so it is a emergency power only.</P> <P>As for feeding others yes wizards do have it better.</P>

[Orki who Pos]

<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV> <P><FONT size=3>First of all, dont compare nil distortion to ball of flames.. compare it to the lvl 39 extreemely short duration "dot-nuke" that warlocks dont get</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>- I realize you dont want to do that, since then you got no point to make.</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>>We both get invisibility.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Wizard invis actually provides a +def bonus after it expires, this is a major feature, and CAN make or break a raid.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT size=3>>We both get mana feeds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>But wizards gets alot better ones.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT size=3>>We get interruptible evac at the same time they get a power drain ability.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>yes... i've been saved more times with a wizards evac than a warlocks power drain (5 mana/tick).. and i'm a warlock.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT size=3>>We both get stuns.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>yes, but only wizards gets usefull stifles, and mez. - you might not use mez, but it can be a powerfull utility, and a friend of mine uses it alot.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT size=3>>They get a proportion of power back from some spells when they land we get - ermm boreal ?<BR>>So what is this extra utility ?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>stifle, mez, evac, 1sec casting stun, alot better mana feeds, evac, a secondary effect on the single target root that actually works, more usefull resist buff and a TON of resist debuffs that stacks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>If you do not use the utility spells you have, and go for plain damage, you will be an alot worse addition to a group, than a warlock doing the same.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>It's not the answer you want, but it's the only one i can give you <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Orki who Posts on <span class=date_text>06-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:57 PM</span>

[trysta]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Orki who Posts wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>>We both get invisibility.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Wizard invis actually provides a +def bonus after it expires, this is a major feature, and CAN make or break a raid.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What... The invis is single target, and can only be applied to one person at a time.. How is a single defense buff going to "make or break a raid"?</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> Orki who Posts wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV> <P><FONT size=3>>So what is this extra utility ?</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT size=3>stifle, mez, evac, 1sec casting stun, alot better mana feeds, evac, a secondary effect on the single target root that actually works, more usefull resist buff and a TON of resist debuffs that stacks.</FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Orki who Posts on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:57 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The secondary effect on a single target root? If you're implying the re-root effect on Truss, that's only useful while soloing, as it too breaks upon taking any amount of damage.</P> <P>"a TON of resists debuffs" amount to nothing when you see Ice Comet hitting for 125 points of damage instead of 3000.</P>

[Stavenh]

>We both get invisibility.Wizard invis actually provides a +def bonus after it expires, this is a major feature, and CAN make or break a raid.It's a 2% increase of defense. It doesn't make a difference. Yours has a chance to stun the mob.>We both get mana feeds.But wizards gets alot better ones.No, they are about equal. Ours provide a bit more, but with a stun. The difference between the amounts is not game breaking.>We get interruptible evac at the same time they get a power drain ability.yes... i've been saved more times with a wizards evac than a warlocks power drain (5 mana/tick).. and i'm a warlock.Sorry to say, evac isn't the great thing you say it is. Ring of Cold will save your group better then evac. I use evac to move us across zones then to save my groups but. The only time it comes in handy is if you plan to use before hand, because your group isn't sure you can handle a mob. Which means you sit there and watch how the fight goes in the first few seconds to see if you should cast evac. Other times, by the time evac is needed, with a 5 second cast time, it's to late.>We both get stuns.yes, but only wizards gets usefull stifles, and mez. - you might not use mez, but it can be a powerfull utility, and a friend of mine uses it alot.Mez is not a powerful utility. I've tried to work in ways to use it, and it casts way to fast for a tank to stop hitting the mob. It's much better to root a mob then mez it, because while one mob is rooted, I can help kill the ones that aren't. I can't do that when using mez. As for stuns and stifles, what can I say, we probablly do have an edge on that. Just because ours are better, doesn't mean your's suck. That's often the misconception about abilities. Because one does more, all others must stink. And before you say, wizards want same DPS as warlocks, I've never argueed for that. I don't feel that because you have better DPS, we should have equal.>They get a proportion of power back from some spells when they land we get - ermm boreal ?>So what is this extra utility ?stifle, mez, evac,  1sec casting stun, alot better mana feeds, evac, a secondary effect on the single target root that actually works, more usefull resist buff and a TON of resist debuffs that stacks.That one second cast stun, does no damage lasts 6.5 seconds and isn't recastable for 3 minutes. It's for emergancies, not regular play. Your resist buffs are the same as ours in regards to how much they give, just to posion and disease. Again, while we have a few power heals/transfers that do more then yours, you have a widder varity which work in different ways, both in and out of combat, and combined, are about equal to what wizards get. As for your debuffs, I can't say. I do know that our Wind line doesn't stack, unless you took the level 20 training option. Icy coil, and piercing icles stack. Are you saying that none of you debuffs stack? Or have the misconception that we use 10 debuffs that all stack? Freezing wind and icy wind don't stack. This is getting stupid. Pick the class you want to play and play it. Stop seeing precieved value in other classes. Go play them and this value will not last long.

[TheWhiteRaid]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Orki who Posts wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV> <P></P> <P><FONT size=3>>We both get invisibility.</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT size=3>Wizard invis actually provides a +def bonus after it expires, this is a major feature, and CAN make or break a raid.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ok a +2 mitigation buff after the invis breaks is so game breaking on raids.  I mean that 0.01% is going to make all the difference.</DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV><BR><FONT size=3>>We both get mana feeds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>But wizards gets alot better ones.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>As I have said before we both have almost the same health to power feeds.  Wizards get a second one that we pay dearly to use.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR><FONT size=3></FONT> <HR> >We get interruptible evac at the same time they get a power drain ability.</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>yes... i've been saved more times with a wizards evac than a warlocks power drain (5 mana/tick).. and i'm a warlock.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I think out of all the time between levels 38-50 I have only use it to save my group 5 times.  And I have had many more failures.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW you also have a -20 per tick drain on boon of the shadowed.  Which I might add has a better chance to proc than Concurence.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> >We both get stuns.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=3>yes, but only wizards gets usefull stifles, and mez. - you might not use mez, but it can be a powerfull utility, and a friend of mine uses it alot.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Why is everyone so bent on the worst spell a wizard gets?  I think the only thing close it in being useless is Heat Stroke.</DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR><FONT size=3></FONT> <HR> >They get a proportion of power back from some spells when they land we get - ermm boreal ?<BR>>So what is this extra utility ?</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>stifle, mez, evac, 1sec casting stun, alot better mana feeds, evac, a secondary effect on the single target root that actually works, more usefull resist buff and a TON of resist debuffs that stacks. </FONT> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I almost never use truss to hold a mob while I attack it.  I always use it to hold a mob long enough to regen some power.  For the most part I use FM as my filler root between RoC casts.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 second stun?  What do you call flash freeze? It still works up to level 48 (Which I might add is the same as BI which I use more often) Our 1 second stun has a three minute recast on it so you can only use it about once every 4-5 battles.  BTW does AoD really hold for the full 9 seconds or am I mistaken?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>

[Tar~Palantir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR>>We both get invisibility.<BR>Wizard invis actually provides a +def bonus after it expires, this is a major feature, and CAN make or break a raid.<BR><BR>It's a 2% increase of defense. It doesn't make a difference. Yours has a chance to stun the mob.<BR><BR>>We both get mana feeds.<BR>But wizards gets alot better ones.<BR><BR>No, they are about equal. Ours provide a bit more, but with a stun. The difference between the amounts is not game breaking.<BR><BR>>We get interruptible evac at the same time they get a power drain ability.<BR>yes... i've been saved more times with a wizards evac than a warlocks power drain (5 mana/tick).. and i'm a warlock.<BR><BR>Sorry to say, evac isn't the great thing you say it is. Ring of Cold will save your group better then evac. I use evac to move us across zones then to save my groups but. The only time it comes in handy is if you plan to use before hand, because your group isn't sure you can handle a mob. Which means you sit there and watch how the fight goes in the first few seconds to see if you should cast evac. Other times, by the time evac is needed, with a 5 second cast time, it's to late.<BR><BR><BR>>We both get stuns.<BR>yes, but only wizards gets usefull stifles, and mez. - you might not use mez, but it can be a powerfull utility, and a friend of mine uses it alot.<BR><BR>Mez is not a powerful utility. I've tried to work in ways to use it, and it casts way to fast for a tank to stop hitting the mob. It's much better to root a mob then mez it, because while one mob is rooted, I can help kill the ones that aren't. I can't do that when using mez. As for stuns and stifles, what can I say, we probablly do have an edge on that. Just because ours are better, doesn't mean your's suck. That's often the misconception about abilities. Because one does more, all others must stink. And before you say, wizards want same DPS as warlocks, I've never argueed for that. I don't feel that because you have better DPS, we should have equal.<BR><BR>>They get a proportion of power back from some spells when they land we get - ermm boreal ?<BR>>So what is this extra utility ?<BR>stifle, mez, evac,  1sec casting stun, alot better mana feeds, evac, a secondary effect on the single target root that actually works, more usefull resist buff and a TON of resist debuffs that stacks.<BR><BR>That one second cast stun, does no damage lasts 6.5 seconds and isn't recastable for 3 minutes. It's for emergancies, not regular play. <BR><BR>Your resist buffs are the same as ours in regards to how much they give, just to posion and disease. <BR><BR>Again, while we have a few power heals/transfers that do more then yours, you have a widder varity which work in different ways, both in and out of combat, and combined, are about equal to what wizards get. <BR><BR>As for your debuffs, I can't say. I do know that our Wind line doesn't stack, unless you took the level 20 training option. Icy coil, and piercing icles stack. Are you saying that none of you debuffs stack? Or have the misconception that we use 10 debuffs that all stack? Freezing wind and icy wind don't stack. <BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>This is getting stupid. Pick the class you want to play and play it. Stop seeing precieved value in other classes. Go play them and this value will not last long.<BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Another intelligent post from stavenham. That nice little jab at the end says it perfectly.  Warlocks keep trying to justify wizard gimped'ness by pointing out our utilities.  Perceived value is the perfect phrase for our useless "utilities" since their combat value is perceived...ie..nothing more than a figment of the mind.<BR>

[Sac_jok]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tar~Palantir wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR>>We both get invisibility.<BR>Wizard invis actually provides a +def bonus after it expires, this is a major feature, and CAN make or break a raid.<BR><BR>It's a 2% increase of defense. It doesn't make a difference. Yours has a chance to stun the mob.<BR><BR>>We both get mana feeds.<BR>But wizards gets alot better ones.<BR><BR>No, they are about equal. Ours provide a bit more, but with a stun. The difference between the amounts is not game breaking.<BR><BR>>We get interruptible evac at the same time they get a power drain ability.<BR>yes... i've been saved more times with a wizards evac than a warlocks power drain (5 mana/tick).. and i'm a warlock.<BR><BR>Sorry to say, evac isn't the great thing you say it is. Ring of Cold will save your group better then evac. I use evac to move us across zones then to save my groups but. The only time it comes in handy is if you plan to use before hand, because your group isn't sure you can handle a mob. Which means you sit there and watch how the fight goes in the first few seconds to see if you should cast evac. Other times, by the time evac is needed, with a 5 second cast time, it's to late.<BR><BR><BR>>We both get stuns.<BR>yes, but only wizards gets usefull stifles, and mez. - you might not use mez, but it can be a powerfull utility, and a friend of mine uses it alot.<BR><BR>Mez is not a powerful utility. I've tried to work in ways to use it, and it casts way to fast for a tank to stop hitting the mob. It's much better to root a mob then mez it, because while one mob is rooted, I can help kill the ones that aren't. I can't do that when using mez. As for stuns and stifles, what can I say, we probablly do have an edge on that. Just because ours are better, doesn't mean your's suck. That's often the misconception about abilities. Because one does more, all others must stink. And before you say, wizards want same DPS as warlocks, I've never argueed for that. I don't feel that because you have better DPS, we should have equal.<BR><BR>>They get a proportion of power back from some spells when they land we get - ermm boreal ?<BR>>So what is this extra utility ?<BR>stifle, mez, evac,  1sec casting stun, alot better mana feeds, evac, a secondary effect on the single target root that actually works, more usefull resist buff and a TON of resist debuffs that stacks.<BR><BR>That one second cast stun, does no damage lasts 6.5 seconds and isn't recastable for 3 minutes. It's for emergancies, not regular play. <BR><BR>Your resist buffs are the same as ours in regards to how much they give, just to posion and disease. <BR><BR>Again, while we have a few power heals/transfers that do more then yours, you have a widder varity which work in different ways, both in and out of combat, and combined, are about equal to what wizards get. <BR><BR>As for your debuffs, I can't say. I do know that our Wind line doesn't stack, unless you took the level 20 training option. Icy coil, and piercing icles stack. Are you saying that none of you debuffs stack? Or have the misconception that we use 10 debuffs that all stack? Freezing wind and icy wind don't stack. <BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>This is getting stupid. Pick the class you want to play and play it. Stop seeing precieved value in other classes. Go play them and this value will not last long.<BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Another intelligent post from stavenham. That nice little jab at the end says it perfectly.  Warlocks keep trying to justify wizard gimped'ness by pointing out our utilities.  Perceived value is the perfect phrase for our useless "utilities" since their combat value is perceived...ie..nothing more than a figment of the mind.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Stavenham did write an excellent post (as usual) that makes perfect sense. Pick the class you want to play and play it...stop whining about [Removed for Content] this and [Removed for Content] that. Wizards are not GIMPED they are screwed during raid mobs and a couple of broken spells (as most other classes are including us). We ALL need to quit comparing the two classes we both have our good points and both have our bad points.</FONT><BR>

[Stavenh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tar~Palantir wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>This is getting stupid. Pick the class you want to play and play it. Stop seeing precieved value in other classes. Go play them and this value will not last long.<BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Another intelligent post from stavenham. That nice little jab at the end says it perfectly.  Warlocks keep trying to justify wizard gimped'ness by pointing out our utilities.  Perceived value is the perfect phrase for our useless "utilities" since their combat value is perceived...ie..nothing more than a figment of the mind.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sorry that you took this personally, since it wasn't addressed to you. When someone comes and makes a post saying that our invis is better because it gives a def bonus when broken, that can make or break a raid, all you can conclude is that the person is distorting the facts, knowingly or unknowningly.</P> <P>But it's clear, if you actually believe the wrong information about another classes spells, of course those spells seem better. You've built them up to be god like. Everyone run and get a wizard in your raid, have them cast invisiblity, attack the monster and watch your def go up so high, the mob won't even be able to touch you!</P> <P>Of course this is stupid. How can we have a discussion about the different utilities each class gets when people, regardless of which side they are on, make comments like this?</P> <P>Warlocks get more stuns/stifles to cast in a row then wizards. But ours last a little longer. Some of yours are AE but the stun/stifle only effect the targeted mobs, the rest in the encounter get hit with the dot effect. So you can't use an AE spell on a single target? I sure do, even though it's costly I use my AE debuff on hard or resistant mobs and then the single target, because I can effectivly lower thier elemental resists clost to 2500, meaning my nukes hit better.</P> <P>It's not always what you have, it's how you use it, and knowing when to use it.<BR></P>

[Tar~Palantir]

Our plus defence invis is good for horse-riders since it doesn't slow you down...that's the use I have found for it...

[Orki who Pos]

<P>You DO have to look up the effect of defense skill, there's a good reason i used the word CAN.. and not DOES.</P> <P> </P> <P>If your defense skill gets high enough to grey out the mob, it will no longer hit the tank (with me so far? otherwise, look it up on the boards)</P> <P> </P> <P>That is why even one or two points can make a difference, if it's the final point that takes the tank from taking massive damage, to being unhittable by the mob.</P> <P>In most groups you wont have the required defense skill, and in alot of raids, obtaining it is either easy, or impossible, but it CAN be the deciding factor.. like it or not.</P> <P> </P> <P>The point i wanted to make earlier, and did make, is that wizards actually have alot of minor utility, but alot of it is rarely considered, by unwilling wizards, wanting to seem less powerfull than they are. - Too bad.</P> <P>The post was a reply to the original poster, about what he had and warlocks did not. </P> <P>- That was what i pointed out, and while you might want to trivialize many of them, they'r there.</P> <P> <P> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>PS: Stavenham, you need to realize that defense is not in %, it is in hard lineary numbers. The difference is <STRONG>enormous</STRONG>.</FONT> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>If you have 6x5=30 points more defense than your opponent has offense (lvl*5=offense), you will not get hit what so ever.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>You go from having 29 points, and getting hit alot, to 30 points, and not getting hit at all. ONE POINT....</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>This fact is one of the main reasons that the entire combat system is getting rewritten from scratch, and after that everybody rolls in the lottery what abilities and powers they'll have.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>PPS: It does seem strange that i have to educate seemingly experienced wizards in the game mechanics.. but i guess alot of people doesn't keep up to date on how mob damage and melee works in the game.</P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Orki who Posts on <span class=date_text>06-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:38 PM</span>

[Stavenh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Orki who Posts wrote:<BR> <P>You DO have to look up the effect of defense skill, there's a good reason i used the word CAN.. and not DOES.</P> <P>If your defense skill gets high enough to grey out the mob, it will no longer hit the tank (with me so far? otherwise, look it up on the boards)</P> <P>That is why even one or two points can make a difference, if it's the final point that takes the tank from taking massive damage, to being unhittable by the mob.</P> <P>In most groups you wont have the required defense skill, and in alot of raids, obtaining it is either easy, or impossible, but it CAN be the deciding factor.. like it or not.</P> <P>The point i wanted to make earlier, and did make, is that wizards actually have alot of minor utility, but alot of it is rarely considered, by unwilling wizards, wanting to seem less powerfull than they are. - Too bad.</P> <P>The post was a reply to the original poster, about what he had and warlocks did not. </P> <P>- That was what i pointed out, and while you might want to trivialize many of them, they'r there.</P> <P>Message Edited by Orki who Posts on <SPAN class=date_text>06-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:06 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sorry, but 2% isn't going to make that happen. You are just streching it. Not once as anyone asked for my invis on  a raid so they can recieve 2% to make them invunerable to being hit. And 2% will not make anyone go from taking massive damage, there just isn't any magic number that goes from one extreme to the next. </P> <P>So no it <EM>CAN NOT</EM> be the deciding factor. And just you saying so doesn't make it true. </P> <P>And there are enough actual wizards here who know what they are talking about to support the truth.</P> <P>And even if this was even slightly true, with the revamp, there is a cap on to prevent that from happening. Yes it did happen, but it was happening because of Parry, not wizards 2% defense. </P> <P>It comes down to making wild claims of another classes abilities to try and make your arguement sound based in fact, when it isn't.<BR></P>

[Tar~Palantir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Orki who Posts wrote:<BR> <P>You DO have to look up the effect of defense skill, there's a good reason i used the word CAN.. and not DOES.</P> <P> </P> <P>If your defense skill gets high enough to grey out the mob, it will no longer hit the tank (with me so far? otherwise, look it up on the boards)</P> <P> </P> <P>That is why even one or two points can make a difference, if it's the final point that takes the tank from taking massive damage, to being unhittable by the mob.</P> <P>In most groups you wont have the required defense skill, and in alot of raids, obtaining it is either easy, or impossible, but it CAN be the deciding factor.. like it or not.</P> <P> </P> <P>The point i wanted to make earlier, and did make, is that wizards actually have alot of minor utility, but alot of it is rarely considered, by unwilling wizards, wanting to seem less powerfull than they are. - Too bad.</P> <P>The post was a reply to the original poster, about what he had and warlocks did not. </P> <P>- That was what i pointed out, and while you might want to trivialize many of them, they'r there.</P> <P> <P> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>PS: Stavenham, you need to realize that defense is not in %, it is in hard lineary numbers. The difference is <STRONG>enormous</STRONG>.</FONT> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>If you have 6x5=30 points more defense than your opponent has offense (lvl*5=offense), you will not get hit what so ever.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>You go from having 29 points, and getting hit alot, to 30 points, and not getting hit at all. ONE POINT....</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>This fact is one of the main reasons that the entire combat system is getting rewritten from scratch, and after that everybody rolls in the lottery what abilities and powers they'll have.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>PPS: It does seem strange that i have to educate seemingly experienced wizards in the game mechanics.. but i guess alot of people doesn't keep up to date on how mob damage and melee works in the game.</P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Orki who Posts on <SPAN class=date_text>06-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:38 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It is insulting that you expect to push us over with such BS.<BR>

[Stavenh]

PS: Stavenham, you need to realize that defense is not in %, it is in hard lineary numbers. The difference is enormous.If you have 6x5=30 points more defense than your opponent has offense (lvl*5=offense), you will not get hit what so ever.You go from having 29 points, and getting hit alot, to 30 points, and not getting hit at all. ONE POINT....Sure it says defense, that doesn't mean it raises our defense skill, it actually raises our avoidance.So you really don't have any idea how our spell works. it raises our avoidance, 2%. Turst me. I normally have a 19.8% chance to avoid getting hit. When invis breaks, it's 21.8% So a tank would need to have a 98% avoidance for our invis to push them into the realm of being un hittable.See I check to see what my spells actually do. And figure that out.And in your example, if you are fighting a mob that has such a low offense, then it's lower in level then you. Since all end raid mobs are over 50, the chances of any tank getting thier defense 30 points over the mobs offense seems highly unlikely right now. That even if the spell worked the way you think it does, 2 points isn't going to make a difference again.

[Orki who Pos]

>And in your example, if you are fighting a mob that has such a low offense, then it's lower in level then you. Since all end raid mobs are over 50, the chances of any >tank getting thier defense 30 points over the mobs offense seems highly unlikely right now. That even if the spell worked the way you think it does, 2 points isn't going >to make a difference again. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For reference, 310 defense has been reached routinely in maintank groups, giving absolute imunity to lvl 56 mobs.</DIV> <DIV>(Are you actually in a raiding guild?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is why the level of contested mobs was increased. - They were being one-grouped on some servers by groups they couldnt hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you'r lvl 50, buffing your defense by 29 points will give you something like 50-75% avoidance, depending on the other buffs active, and your class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you look in your "personal" window, boost it with another point reaching 30 points and you will see the magic number "100%" against lvl 50 mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every additional 5 points raises the level of mob that cannot hit you with one. - Basically wizards gives 0.4 level with an adept 1 spell, fortunately it stacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>>the chances of any tank getting thier defense 30 points over the mobs offense seems highly unlikely right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are ofcause aware that guardians can self buff their defense in the area of 25 to 30some points depending on race and adept/master skills.. making.. well.. 30.. points not "quite" unreasonable... since there's usually a guardian in the "maintank" group... add in a troubadours 12+ and a wardens 11 and you'r on a roll.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But frankly, i'm not here to educate you in game mechanics..  i was responding to the original poster with what he had, since he obviously didnt think there was anything. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- There is, but it's value can be argued till the rise of the new age, or the birth of christ.</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Orki who Posts on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:56 AM</span>

[Stavenh]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Orki who Posts wrote:<BR> >And in your example, if you are fighting a mob that has such a low offense, then it's lower in level then you. Since all end raid mobs are over 50, the chances of any >tank getting thier defense 30 points over the mobs offense seems highly unlikely right now. That even if the spell worked the way you think it does, 2 points isn't going >to make a difference again. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For reference, 310 defense has been reached routinely in maintank groups, giving absolute imunity to lvl 56 mobs.</DIV> <DIV>(Are you actually in a raiding guild?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is why the level of contested mobs was increased. - They were being one-grouped on some servers by groups they couldnt hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Ok, contested mobs where raised in level 5 days ago (the 17th) so that hardly is enough time tanks to routinly get thier defense up over 310 on thes mobs. There was a time where tanks could get to the point where they didn't take any damage. But that was change long before mobs where raised in level, by raising mobs ability to attack. So now the <EM>question is on you</EM>, are you actually in a raiding guild?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you'r lvl 50, buffing your defense by 29 points will give you something like 50-75% avoidance, depending on the other buffs active, and your class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you look in your "personal" window, boost it with another point reaching 30 points and you will see the magic number "100%" against lvl 50 mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every additional 5 points raises the level of mob that cannot hit you with one. - Basically wizards gives 0.4 level with an adept 1 spell, fortunately it stacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>I am sitting here, right now, with the game up and casting invis on myself and seeing it's effects. Raising my defense 3 points (which is what adpet 1 invis at 50 gives you) I get .3 to my avoidance. Yes the numbers I state earlier where wrong I was used my mitigation number not my avoidance.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>With no gear on, agility of 29, my defense at 250, my avoidance is 41.3, when invis breaks, defense is 253, avoidance is 41.6</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>With all my gear on agility is 78, defence is 250, avoidance is 49.3. When invis breaks defense is 253, avoidance is 49.6</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>That means a tank would have to have an avoidance rating of 99.7 for our buff to push them to being 100% unhittable against level 50 mobs. Since high end raid mobs are over 50, that means they are no longer unhittable. Even a level 51 mob now has a chance to hit them. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>A tank that is 99.7 unhittable without our buffs is not taking massive damage, becase they aren't getting hit that much as it is. At 99.7 avoidance against equal level mobs, the tank could go 100 attemtps to be hit, and still miss all of them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>So for our .3 boost to avoidance making a level 50 tank stay at 100% thier mitigation would have to already be past 100% so when you take the 6 levels of difference into account he still ends up at 100% avoidance.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>>the chances of any tank getting thier defense 30 points over the mobs offense seems highly unlikely right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are ofcause aware that guardians can self buff their defense in the area of 25 to 30some points depending on race and adept/master skills.. making.. well.. 30.. points not "quite" unreasonable... since there's usually a guardian in the "maintank" group... add in a troubadours 12+ and a wardens 11 and you'r on a roll.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Well, if 3 points adds .3% to your avoidance, then 30 will add 3.0% and 12 is just 1.2% Sure all those numbers add up, but it takes alot of little numbers to make the huge difference you are suggesting.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But frankly, i'm not here to educate you in game mechanics..  i was responding to the original poster with what he had, since he obviously didnt think there was anything. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>You can't educate someone in something you your self don't understand. You can try all you want though. And I was responding to your wrong information about another class. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- There is, but it's value can be argued till the rise of the new age, or the birth of christ.</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Orki who Posts on <SPAN class=date_text>06-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:56 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Stavenham on <SPAN class=date_text>06-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:39 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Stavenham on <span class=date_text>06-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:44 PM</span>

[Skwor]

<DIV>Sorry, been away for three days. How about this. Why are so many warlocks comming to a wizard thread telling us how little we know about our class? Play the other class and see. To go with that I have said it to many times now. SOMEONE!! ANYONE!! show me where SOE has ever taken utlility into account in the wizard warlock balance? IT'S NOT THERE! WE are to be equivalent dps any other argument is futile. I am tired, worked 44 hrs in 3 days. Sorry about the rude post but people are ignoring the facts as SOE have stated and supported. I am not even gonna post Moorgards link again because I am tired of doing it.</DIV> <DIV>I am gonna enjoy posting all the names of those arguing otherwise after the combat rebalance. If wrong I will humbily post I was wrong just to be fair and honest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW Orki see this <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=27281#M27281" target=_blank>link</A> Your own words admit you do more DPS and use less mana. Whatever you attribute our value of utility, until you can show me where SOE has the same point of view(guess what, you can't) I will continue to champion the position SOE has taken. We are to be roughly equivalent. The utlility argument is a <FONT color=#cc0000>red herring.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Everyone can flame me later for a less than well thought out post, going to get sleep now.</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Skwor on <span class=date_text>06-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:50 PM</span>

[Tar~Palantir]

Thank you skwor, that is a wise, wise man.  Same thing I say.  Five stars to skwor!

[TheWhiteRaid]

<DIV>Guys it isn't even +2% it is +2 mitigation.   Like the difference between a bracer with 18 mitigation and a bracer with 20 mitigation.   It only adds a fraction of a percentage.</DIV>

[Stavenh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheWhiteRaider wrote:<BR> <DIV>Guys it isn't even +2% it is +2 mitigation.   Like the difference between a bracer with 18 mitigation and a bracer with 20 mitigation.   It only adds a fraction of a percentage.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually, it's +3 defense, which in turn is +.3% avoidance.

[Tabemo]

how many times is the wizard in the main tank group?  The invis can only target groupmates, and they have to break it for the defense to work, but usually (at least with my guild) wizards aren't main tank group material.  Usually a guardian, 2 healers, monk/zerker, bruiser/zerker, and a bard.  Only in the very very rare situation where we're needed for the extra fire resist (which my guild usually puts me in a secondary melee group) do we ever see any tank, let alone meleer in general, in the group. <div></div>

[James_UK]

<i>"mana tap shouldn't be compared to a utility spell, they are different.  Your mana feed spells are MUCH better than a warlocks" </i> So mana tap is not utility but mana feed is ?<div></div>

[Tar~Palantir]

Warlocks are afraid to say they might have...utility. That could, for them, justify a DPS nerf. 

[Lady Uaelr]

<DIV>Everyone needs to realize that this entire thing of comparing classes is getting old.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stop comparing wizards to warlocks it pointless and SOE makes their own decisions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Posting here about these types of issues is pointless.  Start a warlock if you like them but stop bringing so much attention to it. The end result will be a game full of nerfed classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead focus on your own class and what can be done to make it better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Skwor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lady Uaelrea wrote:<BR> <DIV>Everyone needs to realize that this entire thing of comparing classes is getting old.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stop comparing wizards to warlocks it pointless and <FONT color=#cc9933>SOE makes their own decisions.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Posting here about these types of issues is pointless.  <FONT color=#cc9966>Start a warlock if you like them but stop bringing so much attention to it. The end result will be a game full of nerfed classes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead focus on your own class and what can be done to make it better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>You have created a piece of contradictory logic. Allow me to explain, first you emphatically state SOE makes their own decisions then go to the next sentence and infer that all this complaining will get other classes’ nerfed? How can this be if SOE makes their own decisions?</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff> Stop worrying about getting nerfed. The game needs a serious rewrite for combat mechanics; SOE has admitted this and is doing just that. My bet is all classes will be affected negatively and positively, so accept it; you will get "nerfed" so to speak. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Going to forums, fan fairs, and posting feedback in game are all ways to get the developers attention. SOE knows it and most here know it. Like a radio if you don't want to read this don't go to this thread (or channel if radio or whatever media you chose). In my opinion, those who tell others to stop posting about any reasonable, non inflammatory, purpose driven subject are some of the worse posters a forum can ever be cursed with.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff size=1>Edited for spelling / grammer</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>BTW I did not 1 star you, can provide a screen shot for proof. I generally don't star people.</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Skwor on <SPAN class=date_text>06-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:25 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Skwor on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:27 PM</span>