DPS argument getting old? Looking for different proof that SOE hates Wizards?

[Asterra]

Look no further than the juxtaposition between the Conjurer fish, Warlock Netheros, and Wizard Protoflame pets.  Specifically, the Master I versions.  Conjurers who are lucky enough to get their rare Master I fish spell get a mean shark added to the mix.  Warlocks with the good fortune of locating their Master I Netheros spell get to enjoy the unique spectacle of conjuring up a nightblood to do their bidding. And then there are the Wizards, in their usual role as red-headed stepchildren.  Not only is Protoflame currently - arguably - the absolute most worthless spell in the game, but the Master I version conjures up blobs identical to what one sees with regular old Adept III.  No special mob in sight.  Not even an extra blob. So in addition to being incapable of fulfilling their DPS role on raids, Wizards don't even get to enjoy the same fun bonus that other DPS mages do - including (and, as usual, especially) the ubiquitous Warlocks. I expect miraculous fixes to all of these age-old problems to come about in rough coincision with the imminent release of Vanguard.

[Ranvi]

<P>Hear hear! about the Vanguard part...</P> <P> </P> <P>...I am a warlock...</P>

[Beghard]

Vanguard is a long ways off. But maby if they know that wizards with Protoflame Master1 get the shaft they will release it faster..... <div></div>

[Beghard]

<div></div>Vanguard is a long ways off. But maby if they know that wizards with Protoflame Master1 get the shaft they will release it faster..... <div></div>

[Asterra]

The guys developing Vanguard have a golden opportunity before them.  Wizards in EQ1 got the shaft for four years at least (no clue how things went after Luclin).  Wizards in EQ2 have been raid superfluous for the game's entire lifespan so far.  I don't know what SOE's big idea is, but it's gotten quite old.  Vanguard could be one of the first MMORPGs (that doesn't suck) with a respectably powerful Wizard, or at least one that is capable of fulfilling their role - presumably DPS - in an undeniably thorough fashion, much like Warlocks in EQ2 currently do.

[OneBadAli]

Good Post. Moorgard sux as do the others. He acknowledged changes were coming almost 6 months ago, then i guess he took a 6month nap. He sux and is (in my eyes) a huge disgrace to this community.

[Findara]

<P>I know master 1 nethros is cool looking but the PoS only hits for like 60 on gray mobs, and I have no clue what it hits for on raids cus well I cant see the damage.</P> <P> </P> <P>A nother thing, the summoned dps spells all in general suck, wizards atleast get 2 exploding aoes, sure you cant chain cast them, but you also dont require a component to cast the spell either. I know they arnt hard to get but you still have to get the nil crystals just so you can cast 2 spells, true they arnt the best (well the power at master 1 is 380 and its orange) but we will require a component to use the spell where as the conj and wiz dont.</P>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>OneBadAlien wrote:Good Post. Moorgard sux as do the others. He acknowledged changes were coming almost 6 months ago, then i guess he took a 6month nap. He sux and is (in my eyes) a huge disgrace to this community. <hr></blockquote>If this was meant to be funny, or sarcastic, it wasn'tIf it wasn't, then your post is what is disgraceful. And it wasn't 6 months ago.

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>Asterra wrote:The guys developing Vanguard have a golden opportunity before them.  Wizards in EQ1 got the shaft for four years at least (no clue how things went after Luclin).  Wizards in EQ2 have been raid superfluous for the game's entire lifespan so far.  I don't know what SOE's big idea is, but it's gotten quite old.  Vanguard could be one of the first MMORPGs (that doesn't suck) with a respectably powerful Wizard, or at least one that is capable of fulfilling their role - presumably DPS - in an undeniably thorough fashion, much like Warlocks in EQ2 currently do. <hr></blockquote>Have you gone and read up on the classes in Vangard? So far it looks like there is the Mage class. Thats it.

[Stavenh]

<P>Wow, Sony hates wizards? I didn't know that.</P> <P>I imagine it went something like this.</P> <P>SOE: Ok so we are gonna start on EQ2, what classes do we want?</P> <P>SOE DEV: Fighters, Monks and Scouts. Um, no mages.</P> <P>SOE: I agree, I have never liked mages, wizards most of all.</P> <P>UNKOWN FORCE: You must have mages</P> <P>SOE: NO</P> <P>UNKOWN FORCE: YES YOU MUST</P> <P>SOE: Fine, no wizards however.</P> <P>UNKNOWN FORCE: <FONT color=#ff0000 size=5><STRONG>YES WIZARDS</STRONG></FONT></P> <DIV>SOE: Fine, but we will make them suck</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>UNKOWN FORCE: Just so long as you <EM>have</EM> them.</DIV>

[TheWhiteRaid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Findarato wrote:<BR> <P>I know master 1 nethros is cool looking but the PoS only hits for like 60 on gray mobs, and I have no clue what it hits for on raids cus well I cant see the damage.</P> <P> </P> <P>A nother thing, the summoned dps spells all in general suck, wizards atleast get 2 exploding aoes, sure you cant chain cast them, but you also dont require a component to cast the spell either. I know they arnt hard to get but you still have to get the nil crystals just so you can cast 2 spells, true they arnt the best (well the power at master 1 is 380 and its orange) but we will require a component to use the spell where as the conj and wiz dont.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We get two exploding AoEs?  Last time I checked they were non-exploding/ 5 per tick pets. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Asterra]

Well, it's amusing to mock the idea that SOE has a vendetta against Wizards, but there really is no avoiding the facts about the class.  You just can't point to another class whose purpose has been clearly defined, and say, "This class fails its role".  Only Wizards enjoy that status.  As for the pets mentioned above, obviously they're just fluff, but it is nonetheless entirely in keeping with SOE's trend that the Wizard version is not only broken but also without the fun bonus associated with the Master I rendition, which other mage classes do get.  Make counters a little more compelling, or just shrug and agree that Wizards have been getting the bum rap that has been a tradition with EQ games. Pity about Vanguard.  I have to say I'm not all that thrilled with some of the models that have been showing up in recent screenshots, either.  But at least the game has clouds, and no zones.  Clouds, eh.. what a novelty.

[Stavenh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Asterra wrote:<BR>Well, it's amusing to mock the idea that SOE has a vendetta against Wizards, but there really is no avoiding the facts about the class.  You just can't point to another class whose purpose has been clearly defined, and say, "This class fails its role".  Only Wizards enjoy that status.  As for the pets mentioned above, obviously they're just fluff, but it is nonetheless entirely in keeping with SOE's trend that the Wizard version is not only broken but also without the fun bonus associated with the Master I rendition, which other mage classes do get.  Make counters a little more compelling, or just shrug and agree that Wizards have been getting the bum rap that has been a tradition with EQ games.<BR><BR>Pity about Vanguard.  I have to say I'm not all that thrilled with some of the models that have been showing up in recent screenshots, either.  But at least the game has clouds, and no zones.  Clouds, eh.. what a novelty.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm pointing the how the notion that SOE put in thier game something they have. I've seen it put that way more then once. If your ideas are valid, you undermind that by saying something like, "Sony hates wizards"</P> <P>Of course they do not hate wizards. Why on earth would a company put in something they hate? There is no law saying fantasy games have to have a class called wizard, or it will be arrested. People write about this game is if it's a public service, like electricity or water.</P> <P>It's not.</P> <P>Yes, they hate being forced to have wizards in thier game, that is why we get such the bum wrap.<BR></P>

[BlitzDog]

They dont hate us they just didnt create us the right way at release and now cant fix us without [Removed for Content] off the other 97% of the player base. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fixing Wizards means nerfing others classes or adding Hps to npc's or lowering there resists. Doing either will just make the game harder for other classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With them doing the combat changes and working on Fighters then probally priests I wouldnt expect much if anything of value until 4 or 5 months after the next expansion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just came back after 3 months to get from 48.8 to 50 I made 10% in 50 and rolled a frog Bard dont even feel like playing my wizard. Guild was happy I was back saying they need a wizard on raids i was like sweet they fixed then they tell me its for resists I personally think thats a Bards job and feeding mana is a Chanters. I just cant stand raiding the loot is crap and the resists is insane. All the 50 wizards in my guild retired. Theres like 4 casters on raids everyone else is fighters and priests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone else feel that in PvP we are gonna get plowed non stop?</DIV>

[blynchehaun]

Wizards are designed to do DPS. I am a wizard. I cast a spell. It does damage. QED. As for 'best damage' and such: that is circumstantial. That depends on buffs, debuffs, resists, and comparative level of Wizard and Monster. To definitively state that 'wizards suck' is nonsensical, and indicates that you haven't actually put any thought into your statement at all. I'm currently playing at lvl 30. I've had fun with the class since lvl 3, and expect to continue to do so. This is where you tell me that I need to be x levels higher to 'truely understand'. <div></div>

[BlitzDog]

<P>"Wizards are designed to do DPS.<BR><BR>I am a wizard.<BR><BR>I cast a spell.<BR><BR>It does damage.<BR><BR><BR>QED.<BR><BR><BR><BR>As for 'best damage' and such: that is circumstantial. That depends on buffs, debuffs, resists, and comparative level of Wizard and Monster.<BR><BR><BR>To definitively state that 'wizards suck' is nonsensical, and indicates that you haven't actually put any thought into your statement at all.<BR><BR>I'm currently playing at lvl 30. I've had fun with the class since lvl 3, and expect to continue to do so.<BR><BR><BR>This is where you tell me that I need to be x levels higher to 'truely understand'. "  <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=161358" target=top><SPAN>blynchehaun</SPAN></A></P> <P>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P> <P>Around Level 30 being a Wizard just owned your everything a Wizard should be. Your just lucky you dont have to go through what alot of us did before they made the big changes in a way I envy you.</P> <P><BR><BR> </P>

[Goldentig]

<P>There is one absolute common detail that reasons why Wizzies and Warlocks should do more damage over every other class.  Argue as much as you like but if you can get hit by any mob of your level and DIE within 3 seconds, you should [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] well be able to dish out as much damage!  That is our trade off, paper thin armor and puddle sized HPs for pure explosive damage.  Its disgusting to get outdamaged by a class that can sit there and take Hit after Hit after Hit.  Hell I can blink and be killed, on top of the STUPID fact that my spells can be RESISTED/STUNNED and SILENCED, making me utterly useless.  I have one type of Damage output, One single option.  To cast spells.  There is 3 to 4 ways to block my one option of attack.  I can be killed in a matter of seconds.  Yet Other Classes are still dealing more power.  Doesnt seem right in my head atleast.</P>

[Crono1321]

<span><blockquote><hr>Stavenham wrote:<p>Wow, Sony hates wizards? I didn't know that.</p> <p>I imagine it went something like this.</p> <p>SOE: Ok so we are gonna start on EQ2, what classes do we want?</p> <p>SOE DEV: Fighters, Monks and Scouts. Um, no mages.</p> <p>SOE: I agree, I have never liked mages, wizards most of all.</p> <p>UNKOWN FORCE: You must have mages</p> <p>SOE: NO</p> <p>UNKOWN FORCE: YES YOU MUST</p> <p>SOE: Fine, no wizards however.</p> <p>UNKNOWN FORCE: <font color="#ff0000" size="5"><strong>YES WIZARDS</strong></font></p> <div>SOE: Fine, but we will make them suck</div> <div> </div> <div>UNKOWN FORCE: Just so long as you <em>have</em> them.</div><hr></blockquote> That has to be the funniest thing ever.  To see SOE sitting at a round table with some shadowed figure overhead saying that cracks me up!</span><div></div>

[Crowbar_Catspaw]

<DIV>If wizards are so bad, why are there 3 times as many 40-50 level wizards on my server then warlocks?</DIV>

[Goldentig]

because when people started playing, they didnt know wizs would suck so bad.   That should be obvious.  No one knew when the game came out that All Wiz spells would be resisted by any raid mob.  Thats why.

[Alfgand]

<DIV>Crowbar said   (Crowbar is obiviously a Warlock)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>    If wizards are so bad, why are there 3 times as many 40-50 level wizards on my server then warlocks?</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>GoldenTiger replied</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>because when people started playing, they didnt know wizs would suck so bad.   That should be obvious.  No one knew  when the game came out that All Wiz spells would be resisted by any raid mob.  Thats why.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yep, GoldenTiger is right. I would like to expand on this a little.</P> <P>Well we I would not say that we "suck" but we do have some "issues"</P> <P>Warlocks really, really hate to hear this, since they are top dogs of mage DPS at the moment and most of them do not want to share that spot with us but...</P> <P><U>People picked Wizard to blow things up into little bits with fire and ice.</U></P> <P><STRONG>They did not pick Wizard for UTILITY.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>They did not pick Wizard to be second fiddle in DPS to Warlocks.</STRONG></P> <P>The original description of Wizards and Warlocks never said that Wizards DPS would be less than Warlocks.  The original descriptions of BOTH classes speak about "devistating damage", not "devistating damage" for Warlocks and "pretty good damage" for Wizards.</P> <P>Moorgard stated that Wizards and Warlocks DPS should be "<U>roughly equivalent</U>." Thats what I wanted to hear. I am just waiting for it to happen. I am still waiting. I hope they do not feel that we are "roughly equivalent" now.</P> <P>I can only assume that the dev folks are very busy people and perhaps other things need fixing more than we do. I am keeping the faith, staying the course and believe that as soon as they can, they will fix us.</P> <P>I am not, nor any should any Wizard, ask for nerfing of our closest brothers, the Warlocks.</P> <P>No nerfing for Warlocks, since as falls the Warlocks, so do we !!</P> <P>I am simply asking for SoE to boost Wizards to Warlock DPS and add some utility to Warlocks to balance them out. Also I hoping they fix the high end/raid resist issue before I get there. lol</P> <P> </P> <P>Alfgand Stormraven, level 37 Wizard, Mistmore</P> <P>Sage Alfgand Stormraven, level 66 Wizard, Quellious</P> <P>103 levels of EQ Wizardry</P> <P>Message Edited by Alfgand on <SPAN class=date_text>06-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:39 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Alfgand on <span class=date_text>06-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:40 AM</span>

[Lady Uaelr]

<DIV>Everyone is waiting for Vanguard. I am hoping many of friends will come as it will be visually amazing and you can tell they have been really taking their time making sure everything works well.</DIV>

[Lady Uaelr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> OneBadAlien wrote:<BR>Good Post. Moorgard sux as do the others. He acknowledged changes were coming almost 6 months ago, then i guess he took a 6month nap. He sux and is (in my eyes) a huge disgrace to this community. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>:smileysad:</P> <p>Message Edited by Lady Uaelrea on <span class=date_text>06-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:15 PM</span>

[Crono1321]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Alfgand wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div>Crowbar said   (Crowbar is obiviously a Warlock)</div> <div> </div> <div> <hr> </div> <div>    If wizards are so bad, why are there 3 times as many 40-50 level wizards on my server then warlocks?</div> <div> <hr> </div> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <p>GoldenTiger replied</p> <p></p> <hr> <p>because when people started playing, they didnt know wizs would suck so bad.   That should be obvious.  No one knew  when the game came out that All Wiz spells would be resisted by any raid mob.  Thats why.</p> <p></p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Yep, GoldenTiger is right. I would like to expand on this a little.</p> <p>Well we I would not say that we "suck" but we do have some "issues"</p> <p>Warlocks really, really hate to hear this, since they are top dogs of mage DPS at the moment and most of them do not want to share that spot with us but...</p> <p><u>People picked Wizard to blow things up into little bits with fire and ice.</u></p> <p><strong>They did not pick Wizard for UTILITY.</strong></p> <p><strong>They did not pick Wizard to be second fiddle in DPS to Warlocks.</strong></p> <p>The original description of Wizards and Warlocks never said that Wizards DPS would be less than Warlocks.  The original descriptions of BOTH classes speak about "devistating damage", not "devistating damage" for Warlocks and "pretty good damage" for Wizards.</p> <p>Moorgard stated that Wizards and Warlocks DPS should be "<u>roughly equivalent</u>." Thats what I wanted to hear. I am just waiting for it to happen. I am still waiting. I hope they do not feel that we are "roughly equivalent" now.</p> <p>I can only assume that the dev folks are very busy people and perhaps other things need fixing more than we do. I am keeping the faith, staying the course and believe that as soon as they can, they will fix us.</p> <p>I am not, nor any should any Wizard, ask for nerfing of our closest brothers, the Warlocks.</p> <p>No nerfing for Warlocks, since as falls the Warlocks, so do we !!</p> <p>I am simply asking for SoE to boost Wizards to Warlock DPS and add some utility to Warlocks to balance them out. Also I hoping they fix the high end/raid resist issue before I get there. lol</p> <p>Alfgand Stormraven, level 37 Wizard, Mistmore</p> <p>Sage Alfgand Stormraven, level 66 Wizard, Quellious</p> <p>103 levels of EQ Wizardry</p> <p>Message Edited by Alfgand on <span class="date_text">06-06-2005</span> <span class="time_text">11:39 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Alfgand on <span class="date_text">06-06-2005</span> <span class="time_text">11:40 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>You are ROUGHLY EQUIVALENT.  I play with equal level wizards all the time.  One of them is my friend.  We both have a lot of adept3's.  He is usually within 10dps of me.  That is ROUGHLY EQUIVALENT.  If one wizard can do it then the rest of you can.  Wizards need more adept3's then warlocks do simply because you have more dd and dot spells.  Warlocks get a whole bunch of crap spells that we don't upgrade.  Yes a warlock with adept3 nil distortion is going to do more damage than your app4 ball of flames!  Upgrade, cast it twice, now you're ahead of us.  For reference, I was getting about 110-130dps in cazic thule fighting lvl 45 mobs when I got this.  I got the occasional high dps but it was from getting the last hit in or whatever.  40 warlock</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Crono1321 on <span class=date_text>06-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:43 AM</span>

[Alfgand]

<P>Sorry , I have seen myself and have read way too much to the contrary to accept that.</P> <P>Why on earth (or Norrath) do you think there is such uproar that has been going on for MONTHS on this Wizard board?</P> <P>Are we <U>all</U> morons to think we are not "roughly equivalent"? No I think not. If it were only a few you may have a point but that is simply not the case.</P> <P>The evidence has been presented on in this forum over and over again. I am not going to repeat it again.</P> <P>You are only trying to protect your position as a Warlock.</P> <P>Sorry, not going to buy into the spin....</P> <P>Message Edited by Alfgand on <SPAN class=date_text>06-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:45 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Alfgand on <span class=date_text>06-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:46 AM</span>