Wizard or Warlock?

[Ukoni]

<DIV> <DIV>I have decided to go the sorcery path and cannot decide on wiz or War. I want to be able to solo more than group and am wondering which deals more damage. I know that Wiz=fire and ice damage and War=disease and something else. I havent fought any high end mobs to know which is resisted more, the Wiz damage types or War damage types. any help from a more experienced player would be very appreciated. Solo is my prefered style of play please keep it in mind. thanks.</DIV></DIV>

[JoeMonkey9]

<P>well i play a wizzy, friend plays a warlock</P> <P>we both do equally well in our 20s because we use some of the same spells still <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <DIV>i cant be of too much help because i havent ran a warlock with a priest class - but i was able to pop 3 even con brackets at 25 with a templar healing while i kept some of them bound heh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>not sure how he does but yea - i am happy with my wizzy choice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[strate]

<P>Hi Ukonius,</P> <P>There's no need to compare Wizard and Warlock.  Play the one you like better and have a passion for it.</P> <P>In MMORPG, there are so many changes made to the classes every few days/weeks.  What you can do now may not be doable 3 months down the road and vice versa.</P> <P>If you choose a class based on what others recommended, what if the nerf bat is swung your way in future?  Will you still play it?  Bottomline is, choose a class which you can stick through thick and thin.</P> <P>Personally, I like my Wizzie a lot.  I'll play it regardless of what the devs decide to do to it. :smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P>

[Max122]

Yeah I agree each class will be tweaked as the game goes on and with future expansions who knows what will happen. I play a warlock and I personally love it was a wizard in eq1 just love to be a big nuker and is a little of a twist for me.  Just look at the spell lists check out some of the other threads to see what you like.  Both are rewarding in different ways really up to you I didnt decide on warlock till I went and talked to the npc for the quest and still stared at the options for like 5 minutes it seemed [Removed for Content].  If you like sorcerer so far you will most likely love either one.

[Lady Uaelr]

<DIV>Agreed...Play what you feel like.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I chose wizard because of the manipulation of fire and  ice.....I thought about warlock but the though of disease and poison sounded just way too evil. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do not misunderstand me, warlocks are very powerful and I resepct them but their powers are the seed of pure evil.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards powers are more direct and in your face..........stealing power and causing sickness and poisoning---SCARY.</DIV>

[WaachBack]

IHMOWarlock 80% DPS 20% UtilityWizard 75% DPS 25% Utility

[Conequis]

<DIV>I picked a troll Wizard.  Loving every minute of it.:smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Megloman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WaachBack wrote:<BR>IHMO<BR><BR>Warlock 80% DPS 20% Utility<BR><BR>Wizard 75% DPS 25% Utility<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Err, Im afraid not. Being a lvl 50 sage I've studied the numbers and the DPS difference is a LOT more than 5% im afraid, with optimum spell cycles that is. On utility, I'd agree, some would say more but I honestly do not feel that an subpar evac, an emergency lockdown mez and slightly better power transfers is much in comparison, and Warlocks do get twice the number of stuns (and longer lasting ones too) that wizards get, vastly improved damage to mana ratio's (so the power regens are effectively just a way to keep the wizard in the battle while the warlock is still happily nuking away) and nukes with quite a few nice secondary effects.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hawkmoon</DIV> <DIV>28th Wizard, 50th Sage, Faydark.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Meglomania on <span class=date_text>04-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:59 AM</span>

[n0kn0k]

Lvl 50 Whizzy here. If you wanna solo alot, take a warlock. It's the best solo class in the game from lvl 40-50. If you wanna do alot of DPS at less power cost, take a warlock. If you wanna raid mobs, take a warlock, cause 90% of the raid mobs are Cold resistant or immune. But i've still got faith in SoE, and still love my class <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Though from what i read you should go for a warlock. <div></div>

[Splatterpunk28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> n0kn0k wrote:<BR>Lvl 50 Whizzy here.<BR><BR>If you wanna solo alot, take a warlock. It's the best solo class in the game from lvl 40-50.<BR>If you wanna do alot of DPS at less power cost, take a warlock.<BR>If you wanna raid mobs, take a warlock, cause 90% of the raid mobs are Cold resistant or immune.<BR><BR>But i've still got faith in SoE, and still love my class <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Though from what i read you should go for a warlock.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Best solo class from 40-50?  Not even close!  </P> <P>True, warlocks > wizards in power effeciency</P> <P>Hmmm, you parsed any raids lately?  You forget our "ice comet" equivalent is an AE spell, Devastation.  Our dps was reduced 40% by that last update that makes DoTs mitigate dmg every tick.  On top of that we never get an AE debuff, so...our AE dps is nothing what it used to be.  And lastly, nearly all of our dmg spells have a DoT effect, which not only means more chances to resist, but it also means more than one warlock in a raid renders the rest as power pumpers (which is usually our role anyway), because DoTs don't stack.  </P>

[n0kn0k]

Haven't parsed after the last patch. But usually Warlocks did like double the damage on raid mobs. Same story with Bruisers. Just check the immunity and resistance list for some fun :p Maybe Warlocks got tuned down, but whizzies are still doing crap dps on raids. We have 3 wizards who get out dps'ed by an SK on raids. <div></div>

[Megloman]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>Splatterpunk28 wrote:</P> <P><BR>Best solo class from 40-50?  Not even close!  </P> <P>True, warlocks > wizards in power effeciency</P> <P>Hmmm, you parsed any raids lately?  You forget our "ice comet" equivalent is an AE spell, Devastation.  Our dps was reduced 40% by that last update that makes DoTs mitigate dmg every tick.  On top of that we never get an AE debuff, so...our AE dps is nothing what it used to be.  And lastly, nearly all of our dmg spells have a DoT effect, which not only means more chances to resist, but it also means more than one warlock in a raid renders the rest as power pumpers (which is usually our role anyway), because DoTs don't stack.  </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Not a good idea to mention AE DPS to Wizards! Yes we both took a hit on DoT mitigation, Warlocks might have been a heavier one due to there big 50 nuke being DoT based, but this could be countered by the fact that more mobs have higher cold / fire resists than poison / disease, so the DoT mitigation will be hitting wizards harder as we have to then debuff more. Also, I believe that your AoE spells actually have some use (albeit not as much as they should have, and given Nil Distortion's damage it could be argued that burning down the mobs with single target DD's before Devastation is more effective, but I cannot comment on this as I have not studied the numbers comparing Warlocks DD's to AOE's).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warlocks are a good soloing class, slightly better than wizzies (who are pretty good also) due to having increased dmg, fear and most importantly more stuns, which as we both know are the lifeline for effective sorcerer class soloing. I still think that most tank classes and clerics (templars especially) solo better, especially once they get a few adept 3 heals and nukes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be honest, I remember when the patch went in and all the Warlocks were over here mentioning that the difference wasnt much between our classes etc, and a few Wizards were spitting blood over being accused of being cry babies etc, and I was also thinking that they were being rather melodramatic over it all, especially so soon after we had just been bumped up in damage, and that the difference couldn't be that much. Now having closely looked at the numbers I am shocked that some of the Warlocks had the nerve to say what they did! I would post an extensive post comparing the two classes, with all the spells, damage, recast, power usuage etc from the knowledge I now have, but knowing SoE's track record it would most likely result in SoE balancing the classes in a way that both of us don't wont, so i wont :smileywink:<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a final thought, with an average raid group that is after being as efficient as possible with 1 warlock and 1 wizard, guess which one get assigned as mana pump and which one as DPS as there primary role?</DIV>

[Splatterpunk28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> n0kn0k wrote:<BR><BR>We have 3 wizards who get out dps'ed by an SK on raids.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>SKs also outdamage warlocks on raids, as well as bruisers.</P> <P>To the OP:  I know it's been said before, but really the main difference is which one appeals to you most.  The dps difference has went from Wizards being way higher, to warlocks being way higher, to a fair balance amongst the two..  Sadly, neither are kings of dmg; though it may seem like it a few levels every here and there.  </P> <P>If the poison/disease vs fire/cold doesn't really make a difference to you, look at your guild roster and if there's a couple warlocks, I'd suggest going wizard.  </P>

[Megloman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Splatterpunk28 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> n0kn0k wrote:<BR><BR>We have 3 wizards who get out dps'ed by an SK on raids.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>SKs also outdamage warlocks on raids, as well as bruisers.</P> <P>To the OP:  I know it's been said before, but really the main difference is which one appeals to you most.  The dps difference has went from Wizards being way higher, to warlocks being way higher, to a fair balance amongst the two..  Sadly, neither are kings of dmg; though it may seem like it a few levels every here and there.  </P> <P>If the poison/disease vs fire/cold doesn't really make a difference to you, look at your guild roster and if there's a couple warlocks, I'd suggest going wizard.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So the 2 classes are balanced atm in the DPS department then? Do you really want me to post the numbers and full comparison with optimum spell cycles etc???? I wouldn't have thought so but I'm getting tempted......</P> <P>I agree though that's its all down to personal preference, I choose a wizard as I've always like the idea of fire and ice, kind of traditional for me coming from an old dnd background.</P>

[Raminicus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meglomania wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Splatterpunk28 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> n0kn0k wrote:<BR><BR>We have 3 wizards who get out dps'ed by an SK on raids.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>SKs also outdamage warlocks on raids, as well as bruisers.</P> <P>To the OP:  I know it's been said before, but really the main difference is which one appeals to you most.  The dps difference has went from Wizards being way higher, to warlocks being way higher, to a fair balance amongst the two..  Sadly, neither are kings of dmg; though it may seem like it a few levels every here and there.  </P> <P>If the poison/disease vs fire/cold doesn't really make a difference to you, look at your guild roster and if there's a couple warlocks, I'd suggest going wizard.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So the 2 classes are balanced atm in the DPS department then? Do you really want me to post the numbers and full comparison with optimum spell cycles etc???? I wouldn't have thought so but I'm getting tempted......</P> <P>I agree though that's its all down to personal preference, I choose a wizard as I've always like the idea of fire and ice, kind of traditional for me coming from an old dnd background.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>actually, could you post the numbers?  I'm not asking from a "PROVE IT" standpoint, rather a curious one.  I know that Warlocks get much better DPS atm, but I'm very curious as to just how much.  I don't really have a way of finding all the stats on Wizzie spells.</P> <P>One thing to keep in  mind though, Warlocks don't have an AE debuff.  That means that because of this past patch (DoT's dmg now based on mitigation/resistance of mobs) Devastation is doing far less because we can really only debuff one of the mobs in the encounter at a time.  Our DPS will fall behind if we're spending our time debuffing all 5 mobs, and then some of them might be dead already before we can get Devastation off.  The other x number of mobs (up to 4 additional) will tick for much less than the debuffed mob because of this.</P>

[Vaxar]

I am a 48 Wizard on Perma and get asked this question a lot from up and coming Sorc types.  I try to be objective and give all the facts.  The thing that tends to bend 90% of the people who ask me toward wizard is the fact Wizards get evac and Warlocks don't.  Evac may be a small thing in the grand sceme of things, but [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]... is it handy.  We both are good classes and I love my wizard dearly but its evac that seems to be the HUGE selling point to many. Vaxar Officer: Forged Souls Permafrost <div></div>

[WaachBack]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meglomania wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WaachBack wrote:<BR>IHMO<BR><BR>Warlock 80% DPS 20% Utility<BR><BR>Wizard 75% DPS 25% Utility<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Err, Im afraid not. Being a lvl 50 sage I've studied the numbers and the DPS difference is a LOT more than 5% im afraid, with optimum spell cycles that is. On utility, I'd agree, some would say more but I honestly do not feel that an subpar evac, an emergency lockdown mez and slightly better power transfers is much in comparison, and Warlocks do get twice the number of stuns (and longer lasting ones too) that wizards get, vastly improved damage to mana ratio's (so the power regens are effectively just a way to keep the wizard in the battle while the warlock is still happily nuking away) and nukes with quite a few nice secondary effects.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hawkmoon</DIV> <DIV>28th Wizard, 50th Sage, Faydark.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Meglomania on <SPAN class=date_text>04-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:59 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Thats why I said "IMHO" hehe</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My GF has a 47 Wizard and I have a 50 warlock and in comparing our characters, thats what I looked like. Again thats just my opinion. I would suggest that you get to lvl 50 to see for yourself before saying that I am wrong. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Megloman]

<P>I really don't feel that I need to be a 50th level wizard to comment, yes the numbers are subjective as they are just the raw data and don't take the varying level of resists etc into consideration, but should give a good understanding of the DPS potential of each class. I am still waiting for SoE to fix the DoT issue where the listed numbers are lower than the reality (the same for all DoT dmg for all classes being listed as less than reality), once that happens then I can compile the spell cycle lists and be pretty sure that's it's a true representation of the potential damage (obviously it willl vary from one encounter to the next, but should give a good representation of the average for each class). Just from a quick glance, post Nil Distortion / Pre Ice Comet the difference is a lot more than 5%, probably more in the 20-30% range at least (mainly due to the damage difference between Nil Distortion and BoFl). Also, with the way that Adept 3's work with DD's as just an added percentage increase of the base damage (and the most effective upgrade in terms of percentage increase for both sorcerer subclasses), it makes ND a very powerful upgrade, as the more initial damage a spell does the more will be added on by moving it to Adept 3 quality. If mana consumption over a long drawn out fight is also taken into consideration then the difference grows much greater, as the Wizard is going to be in canni mode a lot sooner than the Warlock.</P> <P>Concerning Depart, yes it's a useful ability and a good selling point for potential wizards, but as any effective group should have at least one scout, the fact that depart can be interrupted, has a long casting time and small radius means that it's really an emergency evac should the scout's (lesser casting time, wider radius and cannot be interrupted) 10 minute evac not be up. In effect Depart primarily use is as a personal taxi service for the Wizard. The lockdown mez is useful as well, but highly situational, with it very rarely being used in practice, and being completely redundant with a true mezzing class in the group. In comparison, a Warlocks extra stun's are going to be used every fight without fail, both for effective soloing and as the best group damage mitigation in the game.</P> <P>The mitigation issue on Devastation is a heavy hit for our Warlock cousins with no AoE debuff, and would definitely have to be taken into serious consideration with any comparison of lvl 50 Wizards to Warlocks (making the comparison difficult as there are no hard numbers that I know of concerning the ratio of damage increase in comparison to debuff level). Also, the maximum numbers on the debuffs that both classes can have applied on the mobs (and for how long before needing refreshing) is also very important, given the actual damage differences between a fully debuffed and non debuffed mob. Probably the best way to go about it initially would be to class Devastation as a DD and ignore its AoE components for a direct single target DPS comparison.</P> <P>If there is no objection from the Warlock community I will post the numbers once the DoT issue has been fixed, ultimately I would be looking at an increase to Wizard damage and a mana reduction (the most important thing, going into canni mode absolutely destroys both of our classes DPS) rather than another nerf that hits both of our classes (DoT mitigation). I honestly feel that both of our classes should be on par with damage, with the warlocks outdamaging wizards in longer fights due to there power returning abilities, but wizards having the upper edge in the initial burst DPS (only marginal differences).</P> <P>Even before taking a close look at the dmg and debuff numbers, I know of a number of both high and low level Wizards (being a sage I talk to a lot of the spell casters on my server) who are now in the process of rolling and leveling Warlocks, and given that many of these players have similar level Warlocks in the same guilds as them it does give a distinct impression of which way the wind is currently blowing :smileywink: </P> <p>Message Edited by Meglomania on <span class=date_text>04-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:01 AM</span>

[Splatterpunk28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meglomania wrote:<BR> <P>Even before taking a close look at the dmg and debuff numbers, I know of a number of both high and low level Wizards (being a sage I talk to a lot of the spell casters on my server) who are now in the process of rolling and leveling Warlocks, and given that many of these players have similar level Warlocks in the same guilds as them it does give a distinct impression of which way the wind is currently blowing :smileywink: </P> <P>  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree with your post for the most part.  I think it's hard to compare the two at this moment pure dps wise at level 50 with the several issues going on -- we both have spell lines that are messed up and there seems to be no word from devs that they ever intend on changing the mitigation on DoTs.  Whether I was playing my wiz or warlock, I was always number #1 on dps in groups so I think playstyle can make a huge difference (when a 27wiz is out dps'ing a 31warlock by about 30% on every combat...there's a playstyle issue!)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, that being said, I think it's awful when people re-roll for the flavor of the month.  And to be honest, if I were a guild leader, I'd be hesitant to invite anyone that does that back.  Not only does the guild lose the status acquired by the original toon, but 2warlocks < 2wizards raidwise and who knows what tomorrow will bring as far as balance between the two.</DIV>

[Asterra]

As I am fond of saying, my guild, which currently has two Wizards and two Warlocks, is far to solidly grounded on Earth to even speculate as to which class is more useful for soloing, writs, clearing, raiding, etc.  The point of the two classes is DPS.  They are defined as counterparts to one another.  Yet Warlocks trounce Wizards in all four of the aspects I listed above.  And the particular point I'd like to make is that once one gets level 50 - a process, I need to remind people, that won't take but a fraction of the player's theoretical total playtime - 90%+ of their activity is raiding, so that is THE most relevant consideration when it comes to choosing a class... beyond, arguably, personal roleplaying concerns. As for DPS... again, nobody in my guild tries to fool themselves into suspecting Wizards even begin to approach the output of Warlocks.  Far more efficient, it turns out, to favor Warlocks on a raid, and consider Wizards to be, at best, a secondary DPS class.  It's mighty fun being out-DPSed by Illusionists in some encounters -- before they've even received their promised DPS upgrade (and after, I might add, Wizards already have). Since the Warlock / Wizard upgrade patch, Wizards have been looked at and modified twice.  The first time, they fixed the icon of a midrange ice nuke.  The second time, they finally untied two originally identical AE spells - but left them in a state of near pointlessness; direct damage is literally more efficient.  This is frankly all the evidence I need to submit that SOE has decided to maintain their history of keeping Wizards on a short leash, this time in apparent favor of their more recent and more exciting invention, the Warlock. I frequently wonder what path Sigil Games will take with the everpresent Wizard.

[Zcenicx]

<P>Sheesh.</P> <P>I frequently duo with a 50 Warlock and we both have the same basic setup; Ad3 or better spells, T5 rare or better armor/jewelry.</P> <P>I outdamage the Warlock with a very, very slight edge til the I get out of power. When that happens the Warlock has about 1/3rd of his power bar left, thats about it. After that point, it's ~20-25 seconds til I get 35% of my power back and can continue fighting.</P> <P>Warlocks are a lot more efficient in damage per power, but in my opinion they also in raids etc have a lot larger chance of pulling aggro for some reason. We did a Maiden's Gulch raid a few days ago, and our lower L45 warlock (who had ~75% of my dps) pulled aggro several times with his debuffs, something I never managed (even with Ice Comet).</P>

[Tanatus]

<DIV>Well my main is coercer so sorc was chosen to be my lovely twink for fun and entertaiment... I chose warlock for several reason and one of em was abitity to life tap enemy (not by much thou but still get back 50hp every 9s is nice) second reason ability to sustein high DPS with low power cost (DPM). For example coercers best nuke at Adept 3 have effiiciency 4.1DPM .... best warlocks nuke have efficiency 40:1DPM (Nil Distortion).... Secondary nuke and most of dots for coercer have efficiency 2.2DPM .... for warlock 10:1DPM. And last but not least reason was awesome AE attack currently my warlock lvl 36 (less then 1 lvl to my final THE nuke) but already with just Absolution line he do every 20s ~700damageX5target if I trow in 2 more AE (that little less efficient) I can get this numbers up 1000X5target/20s. At lvl 50 if warlock upgraded properly spells he can in single pass of AE stack around 4K per target up to 5 target (Devastration + Absolution line + AE stun nuke + AE stifle nuke)</DIV>

[Tabemo]

In a group format, if you're fighting double ups, a wizard can slightly outedge a warlock with ice comet.  That's the only time we shine better than a warlock dps wise.  In a raid (if you're fighting a mob where your ice comet actually does damage), we can do somewhat good damage.  But mostly, warlock  spells when they hit, do more damage/power than wizards.  Mostly, my role in a long raid like Darathar is to power feed. <div></div>

[killzo]

<DIV>Undoubtedly things will change when they totally revamp the combat system.  As things stand right now you are better off with a Warlock.  From around 23-49 Warlocks outdamage Wizards on anything.  At 50 Wizards will outdamage a Warlock on Single target ^ or ^^ mobs, assuming Ice Comet doesn't get resisted.  On groups of Mobs Warlocks will vastly outdamage a Wizard.  As far as soloing goes, Wizards can't really solo too well (by solo I mean solo group mobs) until getting ring of cold at around 42.6.  Warlocks however get get fear at an earlier level which helps out quit a bit with soloing.  </DIV>

[Zcenicx]

<P>Echoing an earlier statement;</P> <P>4 wizards will be able to use all their nukes to their hearts content, and also all mana heals etc since it's DD and DHs. No lasting effects, just direct damage / heals. (Immolation is the only exception)</P> <P>2 warlocks won't be able to cast the same spells since most of their spells have lasting effects, like stuns stifles and DoTs. "Would not take effect"... (Dark/Nil Distortion is (to my knowledge) the only exception)</P>

[Tanatus]

<P>That's partially correct...</P> <P>Devastration work for 6s with recast timer 45s .... 4 warlock stack perfectly here</P> <P>Nil Distortion, Dark Distortion - dont have any post efffect its its primary and secondary nukes. Only problems are class trait nuke BSS (upgrade for DD) and Noxious Bolt (trinary nuke) that have post effect (short) which can be worked around. </P>

[WaachBack]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> killzone wrote:<BR> <DIV>Undoubtedly things will change when they totally revamp the combat system.  As things stand right now you are better off with a Warlock.  From around 23-49 Warlocks outdamage Wizards on anything.  At 50 Wizards will outdamage a Warlock on Single target ^ or ^^ mobs, assuming Ice Comet doesn't get resisted.  On groups of Mobs Warlocks will vastly outdamage a Wizard.  As far as soloing goes, Wizards can't really solo too well (by solo I mean solo group mobs) until getting ring of cold at around 42.6.  Warlocks however get get fear at an earlier level which helps out quit a bit with soloing.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well I agree with you except for the last part of your statement. </P> <P>Fear does not help us solo anymore, the fear affect with fixed / nerfed about a month ago....<BR></P>

[Orki who Pos]

<P><FONT size=3>If you just want to do damage and conveniently forget about power feeds, mez and evac, warlock is the way to go.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>Those 3 are not required often, but indeed gives a nice lift when you DO use them, so *shug*</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>The mez is mostly usefull in big groups, since it mezzes both you and the target, but with 5 others in the group wailing on a mob, it can be quite worthwhile if you mez an add for those 20ish seconds.</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Mana feeds should also only be used when things looks grim, and the healer runs out of power, and so on.. basically, its a tradeoff, damage for utility.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Wizards are somewhat better on the utility side, and can actually do alot along those lines if they want to, where warlocks are somewhat more damage oriented.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Most wizards neglect all their utility spells, and dont even bother to cast proc buffs, those should definitely have chosen warlock, since a bad warlock is better than a bad wizard. They simply want to do damage, and be "on top" of dps charts, instead of helping their group along.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>

[La Trog]

<font size="3">"They simply want to do damage, and be "on top" of dps charts, instead of helping their group along" true! but why does SoE present the wizard as a pure DD class and the warlock as a "poisonous and disease" Class ??? I too found the direct damage I have (at lvl 33) are far under a warlock's at 31 ... If i'd knew it, I would have chosen a Warlock since "to be on top of dps charts" is what I was looking for, as sorcs have all handicaps but magic... and wiz seems to have all handicaps, as mana feeding seems most to be some enchanter class feature (but I can misunderstand the benefits of mana feed) and their dps aren't worth the sacrifices... </font><font size="3">Maybe it was only a communication issue, where SoE said "choose a Wiz for DPS", but it results in some unsatisfaction of a lot of wizards.</font> <font size="3"> Saying this, I still love my wizzie, and maybe won't change, but I feel somewhat lessened somewhere, and I aren't alone (see all posts about wiz vs war) </font>

[notyou]

<DIV>I won't change from wizard either. But the more I read, the more I wish I chose warlock.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wanted to do the maximum damage possible.</DIV>

[La Trog]

<font face="Arial" size="2">maybe that's what SoE wants us (wizzies) all to do: to choose a warlock.... </font>

[Splatterpunk28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> notyou wrote:<BR> <DIV>I won't change from wizard either. But the more I read, the more I wish I chose warlock.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wanted to do the maximum damage possible.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Prolly not a big help, but I'd talk to people in game.  /who all wizard 50 and send a few /tells.   /who all warlock 50 and send a few /tells.  You'll find honest answers quickly.</P> <P>These forums are riddled with people making false claims for their own aggendas (they assume SoE cares what is stated on here for some odd reason.)</P> <P>I've found wizards saying they have higher dps (scroll up) and warlocks claiming the same -- both of which are rare cuz most fear they will be nerfed.</P> <P>It is my honest opinion that the best way to decide on which is by what you find most appealing in fire/ice vs poison/disease.  Look at the spell lists and decide from there.  Dps will swing back and forth until EQ2 is history.</P>

[BlazTink]

<blockquote><hr>La Trogne wrote:<font face="Arial" size="2">maybe that's what SoE wants us (wizzies) all to do: to choose a warlock.... </font> <hr></blockquote>I think you hit the nail on the head there. Most people who picked a Sorcerer went for the Wizard because they either came from EQ1 or have seen them more often in a Fantasy setting. So SOE, trying to balance the number of people who plays each Sorcerer subclass, makes the Warlock DPS much higher than a Wizard's from the very beginning(at lvl 23 Wizards get Ball of Fire, cast time 3 sec, recast time 12 sec...Warlocks get Dark Distortion, cast time 2 sec, recast time 9 sec...and hits 50% harder than Ball of Fire) Unbalances like this persist all the way to lvl 50. So yes La Trogne, I'd say SOE wants more people to go Warlock instead of Wizard...and if the current Wizards who picked it because they liked doing Ice/Fire dmg better than Poison/Disease get screwed in the process...so be it.

[WaachBack]

<DIV>Orki hit the nail on the head there. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[notyou]

<DIV>Ah, what am I saying... I just chose the wizard so I could have a cat. It wasn't going to be my main character but has since turned into my main. I have no one to blame but Xinobtik.</DIV>

[SilentSam]

<P>Currently it does seem to be that warlocks can do a bit more damage than a Wiz.  However, I wouldnt base your decision on that...all it takes is one patch and presto-chango, the Wiz is back to doing more damage than the warlock.  It can and probably will happen at some point.  </P> <P>So to answer the OP, both Wiz and Warlock do great damage so you'll probably be happy going with either.  </P> <P>To quote another guy I saw on the forums here, "Do you want to nuke in green and purple, or blue and red?"  :smileytongue:</P>

[RSZ]

<P>This may be a blasphemy in wizard forum (gasp! the horror) but I wouldn't trade my wizard for a warlock.</P>

[Lady Uaelr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SilentSam wrote:<BR> <P>Currently it does seem to be that warlocks can do a bit more damage than a Wiz.  However, I wouldnt base your decision on that...all it takes is one patch and presto-chango, the Wiz is back to doing more damage than the warlock.  It can and probably will happen at some point.  </P> <P>So to answer the OP, both Wiz and Warlock do great damage so you'll probably be happy going with either.  </P> <P>To quote another guy I saw on the forums here, "Do you want to nuke in green and purple, or blue and red?"  :smileytongue:</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have to tell everyone some bad news:</P> <P>Level 49.5 wiz grouped with a warlock.</P> <P>Warlock way faster at killing level 49 solo mobs. It takes me twice as long to kill the same mob--- everything adept 1 and 3.</P> <P>Warlock level 45 with adept1 and app4.</P> <P>In the raid encounter: the buffs a warlock provides and a necro are of more benefit than wizards.</P> <P>Warlcoks can tranfer mana as well.</P> <P>Not a good time for wizards.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <HR>

[TheC]

<DIV>Yup, I like my Wiz too, wouldn't reroll if you paid me.  I do great DPS, maybe not in raids but everyone sucks in raids.</DIV>

[Calirian]

<DIV>Honestly, concerning DPS among wizards and warlocks, I think it really depends on how the person plays their class and what kind of mob they are fighting. People talk about pulling up parses to show the DPS between the 2. If you are pulling up parses from group encounters and going off that, your numbers are going to be quite varied and as such, not going to show the true dps between a wizard and a warlock. If someone posted parses from say, a Darathar raid, it might be different since the raid is a lot longer and you'd get a really good average on the spells casted, even if some were resisted. The only thing that really sucks for wizards, and that I think Sony should fix, is the amount of raid lvl mobs that are so resistant to Ice and Fire. I read somewhere from a list of I think 18 raid mobs that 16 of these mobs were resistant to Fire and Ice to a much higher degree and only 2 that were resistant to disease/poison.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a really good friend, in my guild on Permafrost that is a wizard, and we tease each other constantly over who is better at dps, he's a wizard and I'm a warlock, and it's always in good fun. But with the way that Sony made it for the Warlock class. I've been in a group with another warlock, who just primarily dotted, didn't even really worry about DD nukes, thus his dps sucked but it was great for me, because generally I will do both, dot and dd. This meant since he was doing all the dotting/debuffing, I could just strictly output damage via dd nukes and we both had a really great time. I'll say that wizards get the semi bad end of the stick on raids, but only because so many mobs are resistant to Fire and Ice. Maybe if people would look at the root of doing good dps..instead of just the pure numbers, seems like a smarter arguement would be to complain until Sony decreased the resists of said mobs that are resistant to Fire and Ice, imo that would help the wizards dps out a whole lot on raids</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My 2cp...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Calirian</DIV> <DIV>42 Warlock</DIV> <DIV>Forged Souls - Permafrost</DIV>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calirian wrote:<BR> <DIV>Honestly, concerning DPS among wizards and warlocks, I think it really depends on how the person plays their class and what kind of mob they are fighting. People talk about pulling up parses to show the DPS between the 2. If you are pulling up parses from group encounters and going off that, your numbers are going to be quite varied and as such, not going to show the true dps between a wizard and a warlock. If someone posted parses from say, a Darathar raid, it might be different since the raid is a lot longer and you'd get a really good average on the spells casted, even if some were resisted. The only thing that really sucks for wizards, and that I think Sony should fix, is the amount of raid lvl mobs that are so resistant to Ice and Fire. I read somewhere from a list of I think 18 raid mobs that 16 of these mobs were resistant to Fire and Ice to a much higher degree and only 2 that were resistant to disease/poison.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Calirian</DIV> <DIV>42 Warlock</DIV> <DIV>Forged Souls - Permafrost</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The DPS issue is pretty cut and dry.  There is only one way to play the class.  The right way or the wrong way.  The right way is to debuff before casting any major nukes, the only exception being if a mob is close to death and it will die just as you debuff.  As far as DPS goes that is all there is.  As far as xfering power during raids, thats a whole other issue which will affect DPS but is irrelavent for the DPS comparision of a Wizard and Warlock.</P> <P>On a raid if both a Wizard and Warlock go full out, the Warlock will outdamage the Wizard.  This is due to 2 facts.  The first is that most raid mobs are more resistant to Ice than they are to poison and disease.  The second is that Warlock spells are more power efficient therefore a Warlock can get more spells off before having to heath convert etc.</P> <P>Another thing to keep in mind is that Conjurers will outdamage Wizards and Warlocks on raids (4x raids).  Their pets do a considerable amount of damage and it's constant damage throughout the entire raid.  <BR></P>

[dustye]

Wizards suck balls.  Ice Comet doesn't work on 80% of raid mobs, and 90% of raid mobs are immune to cold or fire, so basically cuts our DPS in half either way.  The worst are the ones that ONLY get hit by ball of fire and westfend's... what a crock of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].  Fix the class.  I hate being a [Removed for Content] single target enchanter -- manadumping here and there to make my warm body worthy on raids. <div></div>

[Junaru]

I'm not trying to be a d1ck here but after months of playing I finally realized the reasons I started a Warlock over a Wizard are now 100% true. #1 Reason:Will be a ton of Wizards #2 Reason:Warlocks will last longer in fights. #3 Reason:Warlocks cast more spells/faster so resists of one spell wont hurt as much. #4 Reason:Mobs will resists cold/fire more. I don't know how I knew but I knew SOE was going to do this Sorry just thought I would share that. As to the OP don't be the guy who plays the "flavor of the month". Check out the spells and what they do then pick your class. BTW even if you are top DPS class at some point you ARE going to grab aggro and you ARE going to die with 2 or 3 hits. So not all days are glory days. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> We have our badsides too. <div></div>

[Sac_jok]

<DIV><STRONG>BTW even if you are top DPS class at some point you ARE going to grab aggro and you ARE going to die with 2 or 3 hits. So not all days are glory days. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_man-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> We have our badsides too.</STRONG><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff0000>I can agree 100% with this...I am 27 now, but since 23 I have died prolly once per night (while grouping) from pulling hate from the Tank. Big damage is fun, but it has its price...and with our paper armor our price is usually high.</FONT></DIV>

[Conequis]

Sorry, wouldn't trade my wizzy for a warlock anytime.  I am happy being where I am.  Even if I am not THE "DPS machine" (That's according to some, not me), I still do a helluva lot of damage to the mob letting me walk away knowing that son of a b***h got a lot of damage from me before he died <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Beghard]

<P>"BTW even if you are top DPS class at some point you ARE going to grab aggro and you ARE going to die with 2 or 3 hits. So not all days are glory days. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> We have our badsides too."</P> <P>Thats how it is now:smileytongue:</P> <P> </P> <P>I dont honestly care about other classes. So what if a warlock can do a little more dmg in some casses. I still like my wizzy. If there were no warlocks at all it wouldnt make a diff our dps would be the same. So i think that people who always talk about what a warlock can do are kind of childish. They dont effect us. Kinda seems like selfish jelosy some times, w/e. There should be more than one good dps class in the game. But not tanks:smileymad:</P>

[Bup]

I don't get all the complaining.  I am our guild's log [Removed for Content].  I analyze them constantly trying to figure out new mobs.  DPS on any given raid is: 1. Warlock 2. Warlock 3. Wizard 4. Wizard On some mobs, it is Wizard first and second.  Granted, we are a heavy raid guild so maybe our wizards are just better in general.  And just Saturday I had the chance to help a guildmate and played their wizard on Darathar...it was freakin great.  I had a blast, huge nukes and what's this?  The power feeds actually make a difference.  Say what you will about it, but I have to dump power as a warlock constantly and well, wizards are just better at it and it makes a huge difference. I like my warlock but wizards aren't that bad off. <div></div>

[Poochymama]

<P>Hahahahahahahaha that made me laugh. A dot effect is a good thing, considering the original nuke already outdamages the wizard equivilant and as an added bonus has a dot effect. As for Ice Comet 3000 dmg every 45 sec. Wow warlocks get a better nuke at level 37 Nil Distortion 1800 dmg every 18 sec = 3600 every 36 sec and 13 lvls lower and for half the power. The one I find the most ridiculous is the lvl 23 nukes. Lets take these two nukes into comparison as a joke Nuke 1=3 sec cast time 12 sec recast time Nuke 2=2sec cast time 9 sec recast time + power regen. Now by looking at Nuke 1 and Nuke 2 which one would you expect to do more dmg. Nuke 1 longer cast longer recast more power= more dmg right. WRONG. Nuke 2 (Dark Distortion) does 50% more dmg than Nuke 1 (Ball of Fire), I find this very funny. As an added bonus Nuke 2 also gets that extra DOT effect that you so much regret as the lvl 30 training option along with superior dmg, cast time, recast time, and power.LOUD NOISES!!!!!!</P> <P> </P>

[Mastire]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lady Uaelrea wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SilentSam wrote:<BR> <P>Currently it does seem to be that warlocks can do a bit more damage than a Wiz.  However, I wouldnt base your decision on that...all it takes is one patch and presto-chango, the Wiz is back to doing more damage than the warlock.  It can and probably will happen at some point. </P> <P>So to answer the OP, both Wiz and Warlock do great damage so you'll probably be happy going with either. </P> <P>To quote another guy I saw on the forums here, "Do you want to nuke in green and purple, or blue and red?"  :smileytongue:</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have to tell everyone some bad news:</P> <P>Level 49.5 wiz grouped with a warlock.</P> <P>Warlock way faster at killing level 49 solo mobs. It takes me twice as long to kill the same mob--- everything adept 1 and 3.</P> <P>Warlock level 45 with adept1 and app4.</P> <P>In the raid encounter: the buffs a warlock provides and a necro are of more benefit than wizards.</P> <P>Warlcoks can tranfer mana as well.</P> <P>Not a good time for wizards.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Our Mana transfer sucks, so that is a non issue,we have no evac as well, and any warlock running aroudn with an app4/adept 1 Nil distortion is lieing to you. HIT 50 and you do WAY more DPS.</P> <P>And you also are one of the worst wiszards in the game who hates there character so you should just leave and go play a game where you don't complain how gimped your class is 24/7<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Mastire on <span class=date_text>05-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:45 AM</span>

[Poochymama]

<DIV>Actually Even at lvl 50 it has been proven that on single targets Warlocks still outamage Wizards by about 25%-50%, and on multiple targets it goes to about 400%. This should not be the case. If Warlocks outdamage Wizards by 400% on multiple targets than Wizards should outdamage Warlocks by atleast 75% on single targets.</DIV>

[Asterra]

At the perilous risk of being derisively pegged as a "complainer" (oh, woe), I'll reply to an earlier post, regarding the "who cares?" standpoint.  When my guild decides they can or can't do a certain encounter with X people, based on the presence or lack of presence of a Warlock, while by comparison a Wizard's presence represents anywhere from a minor plus to a genuine liability.. I care.  You'd better believe it.  Not EVER will you hear people in my guild lament the lack of Wizard DPS.  But Warlock DPS is ALWAYS highly desired.  Seriously... this means nothing to you, as a Wizard?  "Who cares?"  I'd like to be useful to my guild!  This is not much to ask.  I'd also like to be "the best DPS in the game" (per Moorgard), and I'd like to THINK, since that's how SOE supposedly intended things to be, that this, too, is not much to ask.

[Kulpr]

DPS parsing needs to be looked at objectively since player skill plays a much bigger role then class power. I do still agree that warlock's do more DPS then wizard's but the dmg difference isn't nearly as big as a lot of people claim. Since wizards get more utility it kind of makes sense that warlocks would do a little more dmg. But when the wizard's utility spells are used correctly in appropriate situations they have a much bigger positive impact and can often save the group. Where as doing that bit of extra dps in those situations would most likely effect the outcome of the battle very marginally. As far as which class should be played when rolling up a new sorcerer is really hard to say. Things can change in a matter of days after a big patch. Guaranteed that things will not be the same by the time you get to 45+. Therefore comparing dps and resists on 45+ encounters is rather pointless when trying to advise a low lvl sorcerer on which class is better. Most importantly I don't consider either class to be totally gimped currently. So no matter which one you choose you should enjoy it. If you want a more utility go with wizard if you just want dps then go warlock. <div></div>

[Alfgand]

<HR> <DIV>Since wizards get more utility it kind of makes sense that warlocks would do a little more dmg.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BALONEY !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pure unadulterated BALONEY !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have heard this line over and over again from Warlocks wanting to maintain their top dog postion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its just not going to fly here.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I have said, Wizards did not choose Wizard for UTILITY.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sac_jok]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alfgand wrote:<BR> <HR> <DIV>Since wizards get more utility it kind of makes sense that warlocks would do a little more dmg.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BALONEY !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pure unadulterated BALONEY !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have heard this line over and over again from Warlocks wanting to maintain their top dog postion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its just not going to fly here.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I have said, <FONT color=#ffff00>Wizards did not choose Wizard for UTILITY.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>I have to agree with this statement...any Wizard I have spoken too (higher level or in my groups) they didn't pick Wizards for Uiltity. They pick it for damage...but they do understand that things can swing either way from day to day.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>A good Wizard IS just as good as a Warlock ANY DAY...it depends on how well the player plays his/her class. I have grouped with Wizards that have kept up with me in damage on a fight to fight basis (one fight I'd be higher DPS, next fight she'd be higher DPS)...we were equal level 29's. Her main nukes were Ad3 as were mine...it was all good. I have also played with Wizards that just plain sucked.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>I think we should have EQUAL (give or take a few damage points) DPS, but (Wizards might start hating me for this one) reduce the effect of some of their utility spells and fix their debuffs to enhance their current damage spells. This should help the DPS problem, the only thing that might keep their DPS lower than ours would be the mana cost per cast. Also, fix the RAID mob resistance to Fire OR Ice making Wizards more needed in the end game content.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Alfgand]

<P></P> <HR> <P>Sac_Joker wrote</P> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>I think we should have EQUAL (give or take a few damage points) DPS, but (Wizards might start hating me for this one) reduce the effect of some of their utility spells and fix their debuffs to enhance their current damage spells. This should help the DPS problem, the only thing that might keep their DPS lower than ours would be the mana cost per cast. Also, fix the RAID mob resistance to Fire OR Ice making Wizards more needed in the end game content.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>I think alot of Wizards would have no problem at all with this.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Some mix of reducing Wizard Utility or perhaps instead boosting Warlock Utility would be fine in return for getting damage where it needs to be.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Sorcerers, both Wizards and Warlocks should be the pinnacle of mage DPS. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>WHY?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>1. As our other fellow mages do, we give up the great advantage of armor. We stand before our enemies who yield fang and claw in nothing but our bathrobes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>2. As Sorcerers, we give up the pets that our cousins the summoners have.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>3. As Sorcerers, we give up the many mind tricks, the great array of mezzes, stuns and uitlities that our other cousins the Enchanters have.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>4. As Sorcerers, more than any other classes, Wizards and Warlocks, depend on pure brute force magical damage to survive.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Any Wizard in his/her/its right mind would never call for a nerfing or advantage over Warlocks. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>We simply demand equality.</FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Alfgand on <SPAN class=date_text>05-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:06 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Alfgand on <SPAN class=date_text>05-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:06 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Alfgand on <span class=date_text>05-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:08 AM</span>

[Asterra]

Sorcerers are supposed to provide the highest DPS in the game.  So says Moorgard.  As is now very well established, Warlocks occasionally do provide the highest DPS, but Wizards never do.  Both classes need huge boosts to compete, especially with new DPS-increasing gear for meleers constantly flowing in, but Wizards have never even approached the level of DPS promised by Moorgard.  The change that would be required is staggering.  It's amazing, yet true, that the "fix" to Wizard DPS a couple of months back essentially tripled Wizard DPS and it STILL wasn't remotely enough, and the gap only widens with time.

[Tabemo]

For those that say wizard dps is equal to warlock dps, try doing gx4 50+ raids were the majority of the epic mobs are either, highly resistant to fire, immune to cold, or both.                                                                                                                                                                                                      <div></div>

[Tanatus]

Tabemono are you speaking about Vene and Fist? ...

[yzyh]

<P>maybe but read what SoE said. Do not pick a class regarding your own thought about what the class should be.</P> <P>Wiz are bit more  utiliti.  If you wanted a DPS you should have went Warlock.</P> <P>Myself I will go warlock just bcuz Wizard were so boring in EQ1.</P>

[Tabemo]

Overlord Oxulius is completely immune to cold and highly resistant to fire.  My Ball of Flames at Adept3 (if I'm lucky) can do at most 450 damage.  Ice spells give a message that they hit, but there is no damage that displays afterwards.  Others that are immune to cold: King Zalak, either Makuto or Shakuto (one is immune to ice, the other is highly resistant to fire), Arch Lich, Spirit and Vision of Vox (we've never killed the other version in crypt).  I don't know why there are mobs that are immune to cold but there aren't any that are immune to fire.  I think there should be mobs that are highly resistant to cold like the ones that are highly resistant to fire. <div></div>

[Asterra]

> If you wanted a DPS you should have went a Warlock. On the one hand, this is very true, given the current state of things.  On the other, this is utterly wrong, if you go by what Moorgard said.  Wizards and Warlocks are supposed to share the throne, doing THE MOST DPS in the game.  Again, obviously this is simply not the case, and as we see new caster armor have damage shields and new melee armor have 20% dps boosts (literally), it's certainly not going to start swinging in favor of sorcerers.  But we all live and breathe by the promises from the likes of Moorgard et al.

[MeLoo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> yzyh wrote:<BR> <P>maybe but read what SoE said. Do not pick a class regarding your own thought about what the class should be.</P> <P>Wiz are bit more  utiliti.  If you wanted a DPS you should have went Warlock.</P> <P>Myself I will go warlock just bcuz Wizard were so boring in EQ1.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thats really great point there.</P> <P>If u wanna play eq2, u must read all the spoiler there is, so that picking the mage archtype - then sorceress, DPS class - and then wrong of the 2 subclasses , results useless, boring powrbattery in raids. </P> <P>Too bad i never wanted to spoil things before hand, and keep the things i find new and interesting. I guess really have learned the error of my ways now.</P> <P>Lvl 50 wiz / 45 prov on Lavastorm.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by MeLoonn on <span class=date_text>05-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:51 AM</span>

[brow27]

"Again, obviously this is simply not the case, and as we see new caster armor have damage shields and new melee armor have 20% dps boosts (literally)" I've never seen caster armor with damage shields, or melee armor with 20% dps boosts .. what are you referring to? <div></div>

[Techneman]

<P>I play a 50 wizard on Befallen server.</P> <P>My guild has 4 warlocks and 2 other wizards that raid with me quite frequently.  The current epic zones are pretty much made to humiliate wizards...  The fire/cold resistances and even immunities make our dps look like a joke.  I have been out dps'd by a paladin on some raids, and i have all adept 3 spells and some masters.  Our resistances do help on epics like LS, or vox, but there are other classes that can buff elemental and do more dps on the same raids... However, when it comes to exp groups, on normal heroic or solo mobs, there is no substitute for a wizard.  I can out dps almost anyone in a casual group.  If you happen to be grouping in SE, or LS, our dps shows even greater.  I am glad  i picked a wizard, after all i dont see warlocks hitting for 3.5 k.   Hopefully with the upcomming expansion, the zones will have low cold res. due to the desert atmopshere. (logically i would see it this way)  </P> <P>In short:</P> <P>for an exp group/questing group or just killing stuff, go with a wizard</P> <P>for a raid, warlocks are much much more practical</P> <P> </P> <P>As for the issue of melee's outdoing us on dps because of gear, i completely agree.  The best we can do is get better mana regen, but since our nukes dont land, what the hell does it matter?  Our spells limit our dps, unlike melees who can upgrade weapons, get haste, and procs.  Until they add armor with effects like eq1 (faster casting, improved damage, etc.) we are just a textbook case of how unbalanced the dps is.</P> <P>Tech</P><p>Message Edited by Techneman on <span class=date_text>05-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:23 PM</span>

[Asterra]

> I've never seen caster armor with damage shields, or melee armor with 20% dps boosts .. what are you referring to? Primarily the new loot introduced a few weeks ago.  Every single specimen of very light armor that has any effect at all has one that's based either on hitting or (most often) getting hit, and most of those are damage shields like "Impact".  Meanwhile, we've gotten two specimens of heavy armor legs which quite literally increase the meleer's "DPS" by 20%.  And they do work.  It's amusing that Guardians already could out-DPS Wizards in most encounters.  Clearly, SOE isn't interested in fixing imbalances like that.

[Sac_jok]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>yzyh wrote:<BR></FONT> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>maybe but read what SoE said. Do not pick a class regarding your own thought about what the class should be.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Wiz are bit more  utiliti.  If you wanted a DPS you should have went Warlock.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Myself I will go warlock just bcuz Wizard were so boring in EQ1.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Sorry but I have to completely disagree that we (Warlocks) are are supposed to be more DPS than Wizards and here is why:</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2></FONT> </P> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>"Generally speaking, <STRONG>wizards and warlocks are intended to have the highest overall damage output</STRONG>, with the two subclasses being roughly equivalent to one another. If wizards and warlocks are not achieving that level of damage output now (and we agree there are cases that they are not), we will be adjusting class balance accordingly. <STRONG>In some situations this means other classes will be reduced in the amount of damage they do, while in other cases wizard and warlock damage may be upgraded. There is no one simple fix that will properly balance all classes, but rather it is an intricate system of weights and measures that takes time to adjust</STRONG>."</FONT></DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=4938&query.id=0#M4938" target=_blank><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#c8c1b5 size=2>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=4938&query.id=0#M4938</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>This is an older post, but sill effective nonetheless...we are supposed to be equivalent in the damage area. I also think that when the revamp of the systems takes place SOE should make sure that both Wiz/War get to be placed in their rightful slot as HIGHEST DAMAGE OVERALL in the majoiryt of situations.</FONT></DIV>

[Abadon6]

personaly i think that warlock should stay on top with dps .. since they drop some utility to get it .. but the fact the epic mobs always resist wizards spells seems realy unfair.. for that i suggest that soe bring back lure spells from the first game. for those that dont know what a lure spell is it is a spell that does less dmg but realy hard to resist

[Melkor]

<DIV>okay don't recall if i posted here or not. Wizard utility comes in handy on raids depending on resists so do warlocks. Wizards get evac as well and i know you guys hate that arguement but you get it and its a travel utility spell so you give up a little dps for this. Also your resist buffs do more than ours. Don't know about the mana feed as i haven't compared thta myself but rumor has it that is more for wizards as well. The overall sustaned dps of a warlock blows you guys outa the water on a raid plain and simple sure in a single group 25dps isn't killer  and alot of times 50 wizards do more than a warlock on non raid encounters, but over 10 min it can be at times 25k more total dmg and more depending on raid encounter. Right now if you think warlocks are ever top dps on a raid you either a) don't have any bruisers or b) your bruiser is utter garbage. Bruisers right now are top dps end of story. Warlocks are almost always higher than wizards simply because we are set up with less bang and more sustained type dps spells. Also if there is more than 1 target devestation has the potential of hit 5 mobs for 600+ a tick and for this reason allone i think your Ice comet is way way way underpowered by SOE but that bring in the issue of agro if your nuke gets too high. All and all i think both got picked up allot with the patch a few months ago... top dog? NO most certainly not Can both perfom? YES. Warlocks are utterly useless for nuking on certain mobs as well Venekor and cursed come to mind. ((we can use low lvl spells and the nuke from the expansion though but we are greatly diminished not even above a swash and they are really [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing sad dps right now)) . The only hope i can offer to wizards is that you guys will recieve a boost with the changes that are coming to for combat system  as a whole in the future.</DIV>

[Fingle]

I am currently a 46th level wizzard.  The only thing that makes me nervous about my class at the moment is the report of high resists and immunities on the end game raid mobs.  I'm hoping they get fixed by the time enough in our guild are high enough to go after these.  Otherwise solo play couldn't be easier, solo mobs last 5 spells at most, a 20-25 second fight.  Group DPS is high, we don't have any high level warlocks in the guild so I can't compare DPS there, but I regularly tripple dps of the zerkers i group with.  Currently I have to balance my spell cycles so i don't pull agro from the MT, that is limiting my DPS not the spells themselves.  So adjust the raid mobs resists and I will be totally happy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Mid level was rough for soloing I admit that, level 37 and ball of flames made a big difference.  Level 39, immolation another big difference (getting currently 1600-2k with that spell).  Level 40.8 made solo play very easy with the group root thats very, very rarely resisted. Playing a wizzy for me is a lot of fun right now, I'm sure playing a warlock is fun too.  I would expect one day both classes to be equivalent to each other in DPS in all situations. - Mindblade (Najena) <div></div>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kulprid wrote:<BR>DPS parsing needs to be looked at objectively since player skill plays a much bigger role then class power. I do still agree that warlock's do more DPS then wizard's but the dmg difference isn't nearly as big as a lot of people claim. Since wizards get more utility it kind of makes sense that warlocks would do a little more dmg. But when the wizard's utility spells are used correctly in appropriate situations they have a much bigger positive impact and can often save the group. Where as doing that bit of extra dps in those situations would most likely effect the outcome of the battle very marginally.<BR><BR>As far as which class should be played when rolling up a new sorcerer is really hard to say. Things can change in a matter of days after a big patch. Guaranteed that things will not be the same by the time you get to 45+. Therefore comparing dps and resists on 45+ encounters is rather pointless when trying to advise a low lvl sorcerer on which class is better. <BR><BR>Most importantly I don't consider either class to be totally gimped currently. So no matter which one you choose you should enjoy it. If you want a more utility go with wizard if you just want dps then go warlock.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Guys, just stop it already.  If you haven't raided then you just don't understand the problem.  It's not an issue of comparing 200 dps to 250 or even 100 dps to 250.  90% of raid mobs are IMMUNE to cold based spells.  This means you can NOT debuff mobs, ice comet does 0.  Fire based spells hit for 120 points of damage (and get resisted 33% of the time).  Your dps on 90% of the raid mobs will be closer to 20 or 30.</P> <P>There are other issues with power besides this, but those are minor in comparison to the cold immunity of raid mobs.  If you don't think the class is totally gimped because of this then I really don't know what to say.</P> <P>Btw, just to set the record straight, wizards get less utility than Warlocks.  Warlocks get power drains, power transfers, roots with a chance to fear at the end.  They get damage shield buffs that not only deal damage but power drain.  They also get a damage proc that has a chance to debuff mobs poison resistance.  They also get powertaps and healthtaps.  There are 2 things they don't get that Wizards do.  An AoE poison debuff and evac.  Neither of these is relavant to raiding situations.  Power is really irrelavant to me since I have 4 in combat power regen items and with Clarity I can blast away without using up much power (on the occasional raid mob thats not immune to ice.)  That being said, Warlock spells are still significantly less power intensive than Wizards.  There really is no justification for such a disparity.</P><p>Message Edited by killzone on <span class=date_text>05-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:29 AM</span>

[La Trog]

<font size="2">to warlocks : please stop going away from EVIDENCE and accept the fact that wizards and warlocks are unbalanced <u>at least</u> for raiding (the oh-so! know raid mob resistances issue). I thought about choosing a warlock, and respect this class, but it's very annoying to see those posts from warlock happy with this state. There are no descent reason for these posts to be: knowing the problem, would warlocks exchange the raid mob resistance position ? </font>