When will SOE look at Tanks DPS??

[Beleagur]

<DIV>Rather than worrying about my ability to parry?!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am sick and tired of seeing tanks do 90% of the damage I do  AND</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- get twice as many HPs</DIV> <DIV>- more power</DIV> <DIV>- much better armor</DIV> <DIV>- defensive self buffs</DIV> <DIV>- (often times) better avoidance</DIV> <DIV>- and the list goes on...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With agro I die in 2 - 4 rounds.  Tanks get taunts to keep agro.  If they get taunts, they don't need so much DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No class should get superior defense AND superior offense.  We pay dearly for our offensive abilites.  Looks like tanks get the best of both worlds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Onion]

<P>Wizards are not tanks, this is a wizard forum. </P> <P> </P> <P>Delete this post please and thank you.</P>

[Sorano]

<P>I believe you are missing the point Onions. The OP is referring to the fact that tanks can match us for DPS, yet we give up any ability to take hits in order to do damage. The fighter archetype is currently way out of whack DPS wise and needs to be looked at. I regularly group with a monk tank and he not only matches me in DPS, he can surpass me. There is something very wrong with that picture considering he is tanking when he does that.</P>

[Zcenicx]

<P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>Gawd - I've yet to see a tin can match my damage. Prolly never will either.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>That includes every tank, healer scout and other mage class except occasionally the warlocks.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>Seriously. I group with berserkers and monks all the time. Simply said cause they're the highest people we have in the guild. Never seen them pass 200 dps yet, I do regularly and half sleeping.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>There is an use for rubies and opals you know, not just to sell for plat.</FONT></P>

[Pkac]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zcenicx wrote:<p><font color="#ffff00" face="Comic Sans MS">Gawd - I've yet to see a tin can match my damage. Prolly never will either.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00" face="Comic Sans MS">That includes every tank, healer scout and other mage class except occasionally the warlocks.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00" face="Comic Sans MS">Seriously. I group with berserkers and monks all the time. Simply said cause they're the highest people we have in the guild. Never seen them pass 200 dps yet, I do regularly and half sleeping.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00" face="Comic Sans MS">There is an use for rubies and opals you know, not just to sell for plat.</font></p><hr></blockquote>I have to agree, I have yet to meet any tank class that can dish out 60% of my DPS when I'm dumping mana (and I run combatstats regularly) , but like you said, maybe thats because all my important damage spells are at Adept 3</span><div></div>

[McReag]

<DIV>Well speaking for myself a level 38 wizard with adept 1's of all my major dmg spells except BoF wich is adept 3 there is no chance a tank would come near my DPS.  Not to mention the level 43 assasin i regualarly group with that I can almost match in DPS.  IMO if you are getting outdone by your tank your doing something wrong.</DIV>

[Sorano]

I am lvl 46 and have my nukes at adept3. My debuffs are only adept 1 though. I average 185 dps on lvl 47-50^^ mobs, the tank averages 195 dps. I can crack 200 if we have multiple mobs but otherwise I am stuck around 180ish dps. I assume ice comet will push that dps up a bit, but really all I can say is you guys have obviously not grouped with a well equipped monk tank. With shaman/tamplar debuffs and bard buffs, they can do sick damage while tanking.

[massem]

<DIV>I agree completely with the original poster. I believe the self-appointed 'uber-wizzies' in this thread have never parsed a</DIV> <DIV>a good well-equipped monk or bruiser. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At level 43 Wizard,  Plate tanks my level usually do around 50 % of my DPS, and Monks/Bruisers around 80 % my DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts (except assassins) get consistently outdamaged by a Monk or Bruiser even when tanking. This is wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another point is that, a Warlock usually does 120 % of my DPS and I myself does above average DPS for my level. However I believe this will even out until level 50 from what I have heard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My conclusion on class balance is that:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scout DPS definately need a boost - mage defence definately need to get better (not worse as with the removal of the parry skill), Wizzies need to recieve spells at different levels to be on par with Warlocks between 40-47 or so, Monk/Bruiser DPS/Tankability need to be nerferd.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would be nice to see some PvP in the game and the class imbalance would be obvious.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class=date_text>04-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:00 AM</span>

[Za'Had]

<DIV>It's all about</DIV> <DIV>- Max DMG</DIV> <DIV>- Average DMG</DIV> <DIV>I have a 33 Wiz and recently started a Cusader (lvl 17 now). Both are maxed in armor, Wiz has Ad3 and Ad1 spells. Fighter App4 and some Ad1.</DIV> <DIV>What I can say is : the sorcerer/wiz has higher max DMG with Blaze, BoF and Blazing Intimidation. However, these are on a slow timer.</DIV> <DIV>The Fighter has multiple lower damage attacks on a short timer. In the end, the average DPS is slightly lower for the fighter, BUT he can fight at ease. Can let the health come into orange/red and still plenty of time to escape. If my Wiz's root breaks, I'm running.</DIV>

[TheC]

<P>I think tanks don't start getting up to our DPS untill the mid-high 40s, I haven't parsed any raid mobs recently but I'd bet monks and Bruisers out DPS us in the long fights.  SOE just really haven't ballanced the 40s yet IMO, they fixed from 30-40 last class ballance patch and I would say I out DPS all tank and scout classes by a considerable margin in my 30s.  With no new nukes from 40-49 I would assume that some classes would start to get close to our DPS before ice comet.</P> <P>I'm just waiting on this new balancing patch before I say anything else.</P> <P> </P>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheCoZ wrote:<BR> <P>I think tanks don't start getting up to our DPS untill the mid-high 40s, I haven't parsed any raid mobs recently but I'd bet monks and Bruisers out DPS us in the long fights.  SOE just really haven't ballanced the 40s yet IMO, they fixed from 30-40 last class ballance patch and I would say I out DPS all tank and scout classes by a considerable margin in my 30s.  With no new nukes from 40-49 I would assume that some classes would start to get close to our DPS before ice comet.</P> <P>I'm just waiting on this new balancing patch before I say anything else.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Monks outdamage Wizards on 4X raid mob that are not immune to ice.  On those that are immune to ice, almost anyone will outdamage a wizard.</P> <P>On another note, Conjurers outdamage Wizards on 4x mobs.</P>

[iceriven2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> killzone wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheCoZ wrote:<BR> <P>I think tanks don't start getting up to our DPS untill the mid-high 40s, I haven't parsed any raid mobs recently but I'd bet monks and Bruisers out DPS us in the long fights.  SOE just really haven't ballanced the 40s yet IMO, they fixed from 30-40 last class ballance patch and I would say I out DPS all tank and scout classes by a considerable margin in my 30s.  With no new nukes from 40-49 I would assume that some classes would start to get close to our DPS before ice comet.</P> <P>I'm just waiting on this new balancing patch before I say anything else.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Monks outdamage Wizards on 4X raid mob that are not immune to ice.  On those that are immune to ice, almost anyone will outdamage a wizard.</P> <P>On another note, Conjurers outdamage Wizards on 4x mobs.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Having almost all raid mobs immune too our best nuke isn't right</P> <P>But on the other hand basing wizzie's dps on one raid mob isn't right either.</P> <P>99/100 times wizzie fighting non raid mobs we out dps every class with the exception being warlocks.</P> <P>So...... only thing i think needs fixing is the cold immune on the raid mobs</P>

[rivj0r]

Speaking as someone who started out as a wizard and moved to a zerker, I'd like to vote against touching the tank dps thanks. Maybe the wizards aren't much higher, and as soon as you have an average player on the wiz and an outstanding playing on the zerker the tank is doing the same if not more. But thats the game. If you're not doing a lot more damage with your wiz then the things to consider are; Do you know what you're doing? Are you sure its the best way to be effective? Are you sure that the tank player has comparable level gear and spells? If all you're answers are yes then I think one of two statements is true; 1, You're delusional. 2, The Wiz class should get buffed up. Decreasing tank stats just isn't an option. You can't solo a wiz. (feel free to argue with that, as I'll happily ignore you until you have a templar higher than 35 and a zerker higher than 30. The time and effort a wiz puts in to get kills worth a *$%#&! by themselves isn't what I call playing solo. Its what I call masachism.) Decreasing the tank will make it very difficult to solo a zerker. And the only reason I have a zerker is to solo. <div></div>

[Sorano]

<P>I find it amusing how people claim that if you're not outdamaging your tank you're an 'average' player who doesn't know what they're doing. At the moment, given that templar reactive heals allocate aggro to the tank rather than the templar, combined with the fact that monks have excellent dps, I can hard out nuke and almost never pull aggro. I intend to enjoy this while it lasts, because come the day they fix priest aggro, I can guarantee there are going to be a whole lot of surprised people out there, when they find their tanks losing aggro because they no longer have those lovely hate producing reactives. But that is beside the point. My nuke cycle on ^^ mobs goes like this:</P> <P>Icy Coil, Piercing Icicles, Immolation, BOFL, Westfend's, Ice Flame, BoFL, Flamestrike, BoFL.</P> <P>I often don't get time to land that last BoFL, because the mob is already dead. If I get resists, especially on the debuffs or Immolation, my  dps will fall dramatically. We kill the mobs so fast, that I don't need to refresh my debuffs, Piercing Icicles will still be ticking when the mob dies. I save my health canni for between pulls, because if I have to waste time during a fight doing that, my dps suffers. I don't use my stun, even though it will do more damage than Flamestrike, because I would rather have it up my sleeve to save my *$%#&! if we get an add, which more often than not picks me to beat up first. Go figure. Plus the 180 sec recast means I wouldn't be using it all that often. I know I can use Blazing Intimidation, seeing it's on a separate timer to Paralyze, but given the fact the mobs I am fighting range between 47-50, I am not going to waste time mashing the button only to get target too powerful. That extra second costs me dps, dontcha know.</P> <P>So to all you supposedly 'uber' wizzys out there who are so sure that  it's the player's fault they are being matched or outdpsed by a tank, please do feel free to share your nuke cycle and point out any flaws in mine.                             </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[iceriven2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sorano wrote:<BR> <P>I find it amusing how people claim that if you're not outdamaging your tank you're an 'average' player who doesn't know what they're doing. At the moment, given that templar reactive heals allocate aggro to the tank rather than the templar, combined with the fact that monks have excellent dps, I can hard out nuke and almost never pull aggro. I intend to enjoy this while it lasts, because come the day they fix priest aggro, I can guarantee there are going to be a whole lot of surprised people out there, when they find their tanks losing aggro because they no longer have those lovely hate producing reactives. But that is beside the point. My nuke cycle on ^^ mobs goes like this:</P> <P>Icy Coil, Piercing Icicles, Immolation, BOFL, Westfend's, Ice Flame, BoFL, Flamestrike, BoFL.</P> <P>I often don't get time to land that last BoFL, because the mob is already dead. If I get resists, especially on the debuffs or Immolation, my  dps will fall dramatically. We kill the mobs so fast, that I don't need to refresh my debuffs, Piercing Icicles will still be ticking when the mob dies. I save my health canni for between pulls, because if I have to waste time during a fight doing that, my dps suffers. I don't use my stun, even though it will do more damage than Flamestrike, because I would rather have it up my sleeve to save my *$%#&! if we get an add, which more often than not picks me to beat up first. Go figure. Plus the 180 sec recast means I wouldn't be using it all that often. I know I can use Blazing Intimidation, seeing it's on a separate timer to Paralyze, but given the fact the mobs I am fighting range between 47-50, I am not going to waste time mashing the button only to get target too powerful. That extra second costs me dps, dontcha know.</P> <P>So to all you supposedly 'uber' wizzys out there who are so sure that  it's the player's fault they are being matched or outdpsed by a tank, please do feel free to share your nuke cycle and point out any flaws in mine.                             </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>MY cicle of spells is about the same only differance is that by the time ice flame lands my debuffs are gone so i rebuff either one or two spells depending on how close to dead the mob is and recicle through my nukes, with that i tend to get 180+ dps<BR>

[CrimsonAveng]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masseman wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts (except assassins) get consistently outdamaged by a Monk or Bruiser even when tanking. This is wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another point is that, a Warlock usually does 120 % of my DPS and I myself does above average DPS for my level. However I believe this will even out until level 50 from what I have heard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My conclusion on class balance is that:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scout DPS definately need a boost - mage defence definately need to get better (not worse as with the removal of the parry skill), Wizzies need to recieve spells at different levels to be on par with Warlocks between 40-47 or so, Monk/Bruiser DPS/Tankability need to be nerferd.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Message Edited by masseman on <SPAN class=date_text>04-18-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>06:00 AM</SPAN><BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#66ff00>I did a whole weekend of parsing with statalyzer. Results</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#66ff00>Me: 44 warlock  Avg: 100-120 dps</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#66ff00>46 SK Avg: 60-80 dps</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#66ff00>47 wizard Avg: 90-110 dps</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#66ff00>47 ranger: 80-100 dps</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#66ff00>44 guardian: 30-40 dps</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>These ppl I group with over the course of many fights and as you see in this case, it all seems to be in line. Although the ranger kinda irritated me that he beat me a few times but he is 3 lvls higher so I'll give him that.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT><BR> </FONT></P>

[Kaz]

It's been a long while since I played under lvl 50 so I can only assume those who say the imbalance doesn't exist in those levels before the mid-high 40+ are correct. I can, however, comment on how it's playing out for lvl 50's using the best raid gear, masters and at the minimum adept 3 on the worst skill/spells. FIghters can get huge increases to their dps through raid gear. Click my guild link in my sig to see the screenshots of some of the plethora of weapons and armor that is available to them in raiding. Armor and weapons that directly effect their damage through stats, delay, damage, procs etc etc. This is where we are lacking parity. The only gains we as casters can get from gear that effect our ability to do damage is in power regen and power pool size which, btw, is also equally available and effective to fighters. Power regen, great, awesome, that's HUGE you might say. Well it's not, because with proper group setups on a raid your power regen is often outpacing your ability to do damage or is keeping up enough to the extent that you are lasting until nearly the very end of the fight before it becomes a problem. What we need is for SOE to make INT effect our damage like it says it does, and add effects to weapons and armor that can increase our casting speed and or damage mods to our skills. As it is now a well equipped bruiser is going to school an equally well equipped lvl 50 wizard in the vast majority of raids because of this disparity in gear bonuses. <div></div>

[V4n]

Well, they finally have looked at tank DPS.  In todays test server update: Epic encounters had their melee mitigation lowered, which means you can hit them for more damage. So, after increasing magic resists, they LOWER melee mitigation.  Go figure.

[Lady Uaelr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sorano wrote:<BR> I am lvl 46 and have my nukes at adept3. My debuffs are only adept 1 though. I average 185 dps on lvl 47-50^^ mobs, the tank averages 195 dps. I can crack 200 if we have multiple mobs but otherwise I am stuck around 180ish dps. I assume ice comet will push that dps up a bit, but really all I can say is you guys have obviously not grouped with a well equipped monk tank. With shaman/tamplar debuffs and bard buffs, they can do sick damage while tanking.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I understand you Sorano.....maybe we need to help you better equip your wizard.</P> <P>How is everyone equipped?</P> <P>I can only outdamage a berserker level 50 well equipped on double up mobs - solo I don't have enough time.</P> <P>I am level 46.5 but I am having a hard time getting good equip as well. My power with descry, intensify, dazzling seal, hand of tyrant and nosatlia's lucid barrier is 2607.</P> <P>My hp with frostbound gift is 2234.</P> <P>I am working eye of power right now.</P> <P>head= pristine linen hat, shoulders= linen shawl, forearms= pristine linen sleeves, hands=tundra mitts, legs= enchanted linen pantaloons, feet=journeyman boots</P> <P>neck= necklace of flowing orbs, ears=mystical hoop of nature, right ring=ancient slayers ring, left ring= rhodium band</P> <P> right wrist=treedin's symbol, left wrist=treedin's symbol</P> <P>11int hex doll, manastone, pristine imbued wand with 10int, stein of moggok.</P> <P>Any recommendations or advice for me and for Sorano on what is best equipment for Wizard and your opinion why.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[DaFuNK]

<DIV>I have noticed this too...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is sad that I am out DPS'd by various tanks of various levels...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards are getting screwed in this game...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[TheC]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CrimsonAvenger wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masseman wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts (except assassins) get consistently outdamaged by a Monk or Bruiser even when tanking. This is wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another point is that, a Warlock usually does 120 % of my DPS and I myself does above average DPS for my level. However I believe this will even out until level 50 from what I have heard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My conclusion on class balance is that:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scout DPS definately need a boost - mage defence definately need to get better (not worse as with the removal of the parry skill), Wizzies need to recieve spells at different levels to be on par with Warlocks between 40-47 or so, Monk/Bruiser DPS/Tankability need to be nerferd.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Message Edited by masseman on <SPAN class=date_text>04-18-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>06:00 AM</SPAN><BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#66ff00>I did a whole weekend of parsing with statalyzer. Results</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#66ff00>Me: 44 warlock  Avg: 100-120 dps</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#66ff00>46 SK Avg: 60-80 dps</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#66ff00>47 wizard Avg: 90-110 dps</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#66ff00>47 ranger: 80-100 dps</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#66ff00>44 guardian: 30-40 dps</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>These ppl I group with over the course of many fights and as you see in this case, it all seems to be in line. Although the ranger kinda irritated me that he beat me a few times but he is 3 lvls higher so I'll give him that.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT><BR> </FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Statalyzer isn't a good parser, it parses on a person by person basis, you don't start getting parsed untill your first hit lands, so casters appear to have higher DPS and tanks show less because they're fighting longer. Combat stats starts everyones DPS from the second the tank pulls, which IMO is "actual" DPS.</P> <P>But yeah, either way I think tanks should deal DPS closer to guardians then mages and scouts.</P> <P>I don't really care tho, I'm here to have fun.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Darcn]

<FONT size=2> <P> </P> <P>Found this on another thread.  Thought is was eloquent, enlightening, and a good fit for this thread.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=960&query.id=0#M960" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=960&query.id=0#M960</A></P> <P>Moorgard,</P> <P>I have a few concerns regarding these tweaks. While I must say they are a step in the right direction..I want to make sure that we take the steps necessary to bring scout classes up to where they should be.</P> <P>- Melee damage bonuses are now calculated based on the attacker's strength versus the defender's agility.</P> <P>How will this effect scouts? Will we start leaning to STR equipment instead of AGI since our dps might be increased?</P> <P>Also I wanted to request that the devs while revamping this system take a look at the DPS tree while you are looking at the avoidance/mitigation issues. I would like to know whom is suppose to be doing the most damagein a melee style environment. As of right now I can tell you how it goes in the real world and even post weeks of parsed logs to prove it. Typically in a melee fight with no immunities here how it tends to go..</P> <P>Brusier</P> <P>Zerker</P> <P>Shadowknight</P> <P>Rogue Types</P> <P>Assassin/Ranger</P> <P>Bard</P> <P>Guarden</P> <P>I do not have monks in there simply because Fires of Heaven does not currently have any active ones. I don't see how this is working properly. Brusiers, zerkers and SK's can all tank decently. Most have pretty worth while group buffs or single target buffs and they all out dmg the melee dps classes. Not to mention the fact that the scout classes must be either on the side or behind the mob to do a worth while amount of damage, fighters do not currently have that restriction. They can out DPS the DPS class WHILE tanking the mob.</P> <P>Now I understand there are a lot of factors in here, skills levels, equipment, buffs, but with all that said its my opinion that thinks are not working as they should be. Last night for example a zerker was in the same group that I was in, was out damaging me with just his autoattack. He did a contant 170+dps with just his autoattack.. I could spike up to 170 on a raid mob however when he started using his abilities he got up into 280 or so and did almost twice the amount of dps I did. I think the parser said I did 36k dmg and he did 65k dmg. This doesn't seem right, even with the best gear possible there is no way that a fighter class should do double the amount of dmg as a DPS class.</P> <P>In all seriousness, I have the logs if you want them. I can post them or email them upon request, I dont care if you see how [Removed for Content] I am. </P> <P>Please Moor pass this along to the proper people. I am more than willing to test I play often on the test server and have worked with a few of the devs a lot. I understand each class thinks theirs is worthless/weak/crappy whatever..But when you are a dps class and the fighters our dps you all the time, it gets old.</P> <P>Thank you all for your time, I hope you all understand I'm not screaming nerf to other classes, just mearly trying to get my own fixed.</P> <P>Xminos</P> <P>50 Assassin</P> <P>Fires of Heaven</P> <P>Permafrost</P></FONT> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Beleagur]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rivj0r wrote:<BR>Speaking as someone who started out as a wizard and moved to a zerker, I'd like to vote against touching the tank dps thanks.<BR><BR>Maybe the wizards aren't much higher, and as soon as you have an average player on the wiz and an outstanding playing on the zerker the tank is doing the same if not more. But thats the game. If you're not doing a lot more damage with your wiz then the things to consider are;<BR>Do you know what you're doing?<BR>Are you sure its the best way to be effective?<BR>Are you sure that the tank player has comparable level gear and spells?<BR><BR>If all you're answers are yes then I think one of two statements is true;<BR>1, You're delusional.<BR>2, The Wiz class should get buffed up.<BR><BR>Decreasing tank stats just isn't an option. You can't solo a wiz. (feel free to argue with that, as I'll happily ignore you until you have a templar higher than 35 and a zerker higher than 30. The time and effort a wiz puts in to get kills worth a *$%#&! by themselves isn't what I call playing solo. Its what I call masachism.) Decreasing the tank will make it very difficult to solo a zerker. And the only reason I have a zerker is to solo.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You're right rivj0r!  My apologies.  I hate it when one class starts advocating the nerfing of another, and here I've done it myself.  Shame on me.  Very bad!</P> <P>I must confess though, after the attention wizards and warlocks received, I thought we were "balanced."  I thought we would be used as a standard by which to "balance" other classes.  I thought that there would be no more changes to the wizard, so naturally the changes must be made to tanks.  BUT maybe I was wrong.  MAYBE there is room for more "balancing" of the wizard.</P> <P>Consider: 1) there is still a large discrepancy between wizards and warlocks, 2) there are no worthwhile DDs between lvl 40 and lvl 49 - none worth mentioning any how.  Look at everyone's casting cycle: no lvl 40 nukes, 3) a huge discrepancy with tanks when it come to HPs and Defense, but hardly any difference in DPS.  Very strange.  Something should be done.  MAYBE there will be another round of "balancing" for the wizards.</P> <P>You've played both classes.  What do you recommend?  If tanks have twice(?) the HPs, 50% more power, taunts, and superior armor, then wizards should have a 50% advantage in DPS, for instance??  What do you think?</P> <P>Personally, I'd like to see a new heat based DD introduced around lvl 46 (or 47, or 4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  It needs to me on it's own timer and it should do damage appropriately scaled between Ball of Flames (lvl36) and Ice Comet (lvl50).  This wuould address several issues: no reasonable DD in the 40s, Raid mobs immune to cold, AND the DPS disparity.  </P> <P>What do you think?</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Sorano]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lady Uaelrea wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I understand you Sorano.....maybe we need to help you better equip your wizard.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Any recommendations or advice for me and for Sorano on what is best equipment for Wizard and your opinion why.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No Lady Uaelrea, DPS as it stands has NOTHING to do with equipment. All the +INT gear in the game isn't going to improve your DPS one bit. All it will do is give you a slightly bigger power pool until you hit the 200 INT soft cap. You have however brought attention to one of the biggest discrepencies between us and melee classes. Their gear and the stats they have DOES effect their DPS, which is the primary reason why a well equipped monk tank can do comparable DPS to a wizzy. Fighters not only have adept3's to increase their DPS, but equipment as well. </P> <P>IMHO making INT/WIS actually mean something to our damage output will go some way in fixing DPS discrepencies, and actually have equipment mean something to a mage. We will still need raid mobs resistances to be looked at, plus some adjustments to our spells, like someone above mentioned, perhaps a new fire based DD in the 40's.</P> <P>Anyway all these issues might end up being moot, as the plat farmers overun servers with the blessing of SOE.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Sorano]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> iceriven2 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>MY cicle of spells is about the same only differance is that by the time ice flame lands my debuffs are gone so i rebuff either one or two spells depending on how close to dead the mob is and recicle through my nukes, with that i tend to get 180+ dps<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>As I mentioned above, I average 185 DPS, BUT the tank does 190+. People seem to somehow be missing that point.<BR>

[Zcenicx]

<P>Well, since I can easily rack up a spell line that does 275 dps in a normal heroic encounter, the bruiser is still screwed for damage.</P> <P>Adepts make all the difference. We don't have to pay for multi-plat weapons or armor - Go buy your *$%#&! rubies.</P>

[massem]

<DIV>Zcsenix - could you please post the log for one of those encounters - I would just love to see what the higher levels have in store :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Dalat]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zcenicx wrote:<BR> <P>Well, since I can easily rack up a spell line that does 275 dps in a normal heroic encounter, the bruiser is still screwed for damage.</P> <P>Adepts make all the difference. We don't have to pay for multi-plat weapons or armor - Go buy your *$%#&! rubies.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wow, 275 dps. I can't wait until I get to where you are. Im doing well if I'm around 150.</DIV>

[Subtlekni]

<P>Hello. Today is my day to take a tour of the various class forums, and thought I'd stick my 2 cents in here. I don't solo really, so I can't comment very much there. I am a lvl 46 guardian atm, with some decent pre-raid equipment. Imbuded cedar shield/bow and imbued ebon long sword, so I guess that is 'decent' for my level. I proc a bit here and there, and I assume that helps a bit with my DPS. Add to this that we had an Assasin that was making liberal use of Assasins mark to add extra damage to all melee in the group. With all of this going for me, I was in a constant battle to hold agro from one of the rangers in the group, and during one power draining fight in which I slammed every button I could to try and keep the mobs on me, I managed (for me) a staggering 60 dps for that one fight.  </P> <P>I find it funny that the Guardians on their board say Guardians have no DPS. The monks on their boards (and the Guardian boards) say Monk dps might be a little higher than a guardians, but nothing like wizards, warlocks and scouts. The Wizards say tank damage is too high, and the priests seem to think they don't get enough defense.</P> <P>Again, I try not to group with wizards that solo, but I've also got the sense that they add a huge huge amount of damage to a group when I can find one to invite. </P> <P>As far as the defense change with parry, yeah, it's gonna bite. But it is worse than you imagine. If you are a grouping wizard, not only are you loosing parry, but your guardian isn't going to be able to parry as well either, or avoid as well. If the nice changes go through, guardians will be able to avoid less, and the skills that we have that currently give bonuses to parry will not, since parry will not be buffable. All of this means tanks that get hit more often, and find them self stiffled or silanced due to special attacks. A stifled/silanced tank can't taunt. A tank that can't taunt can't hold agro.  </P> <P>Luckily I think this patch will result in a lot less repair costs for me. Usually in a group 95% of the time, I die and the group evacs. I think it will be much more likely that a scout or mage is going to die first now, then I'll be evaced. </P> <P>So yeah, my take is that the parry changes are going to suck for mages, as they will suck for us all.</P> <P> </P>

[CrimsonAveng]

<P><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>A previous poster hit the nail on the head as to the basic problem. Tanks get equipment upgrades 40 to make them more effective+. Our 'balance' item is our spells. However, as any high level wizzy/warlock knows, almost all spells 40+ are broken. I am a 45 warlock and only have a few spells on my hotbar that I have added since level 37. However, none of these are direct damage. I have a better dot, a better single person proc (to help tank and scout dps), a better health to power converter, a trait stun dot, and a debuff upgrade. That's it! That's all I've gotten in 8 levels. No viable direct damage spells. So until I hit 50, I'm still using spells for DD that are 37-. Then at 50 I get a good spell, but the rest of them will still be 37-. So basically my damage stops scaling for the most part around 40 and then there is a huge gap until 50.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>I mean come on. I have noxious bolt adept 1 that I got somewhere around lvl 35 that does 400-800 damage or so. Its upgrade, Soul Flay, at lvl 43 or so does 300-400 at adept I and I have doubts that it will reach up to 400-800 even at level 50. Thats not an upgrade, thats a joke.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>The solution, also stated by a previous poster, and echoed in a discussion with a 49 wizzie guildie of mine, is to offer a high 40s upgrade of a 30s spell that is alternate damage from the level 50 spell. You have ice comet for level 50. But many raid mobs are ice immume. How hard could it be to make a 38-40 lvl spell that maybe does heat damge or magic damage that hits for around 1-2k or so? And for warlocks our spell at lvl 50 I believe is poison damage. Why not give us a spell at 48 or 49 that does disease or maybe magic damage so that we dont sit there twiddling our thumbs everytime we come across a poison immune monster? Tanks dont have this problem. I dont recall reading of a melee damage immune mob. Maybe immune to slashing or crushing but that still allows a tank to do damage. Poison immune for warlock? Cold immune for a wizzy? You are So Out of Luck!</FONT></P>

[Sorano]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zcenicx wrote:<BR> <P>Well, since I can easily rack up a spell line that does 275 dps in a normal heroic encounter, the bruiser is still screwed for damage.</P> <P>Adepts make all the difference. We don't have to pay for multi-plat weapons or armor - Go buy your *$%#&! rubies.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You go on and on about rubies like a broken record. Fine. Let's ignore the fact I am level 46 and don't have Ice Comet or Icy Wind, and consider the spells that need to be upgraded for DPS in T5.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff3366>Ice Comet</FONT>. Piercing Icicles. <FONT color=#ff3333>Icy Wind</FONT>. </P> <P> I can accept that at lvl50, my DPS is going to increase due to Ice Comet, but notice 2 of the 3 upgradeable spells are debuffs, they are certainly not going to be adding  90 DPS to what I am already doing. So what exactly are you going on about when you keep insisting that it's obviously the wizzy's fault that they are getting outdamaged by a tank because they haven't used rubies to upgrade their spells? I don't have Ice Comet or Icy Wind, so according to your logic, Piercing Icicles being at adept1 instead of adept3 is the sole reason why I am getting beaten by a tank for DPS. I really suggest you get off that high horse you must have obviously purchased, and actually read what people are posting. There is actually a chance that other people might have valid reasons for being concerned about  tank DPS in relation to wizzy DPS.</P> <P>BTW I would also be interested on how a tank holds aggro when you start hitting 275 DPS? Because I can tell you this now, if my DPS clears 200, I would more often that not be a bloody smear on the floor.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Beleagur]

<P>Darcnis - </P> <P>Great post!  Where was that, on the Sout board?  Sums up my feelings very well.</P> <P> </P> <P>CrimsonAvenger - </P> <P>I think that's a great idea.  A new heat based DD at 46, 47 or 48 would help on a lot of fronts.  Put it on its own timer and scale it correctly, and it will boost DPS.  Heat based should help with cold immune mobs.  Also addresses that fact that we don't get any new DD in the 40s. </P>

[Andre]

<P>"<FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>a 38-40 lvl spell that maybe does heat damge or magic damage that hits for around 1-2k or so? And for warlocks our spell at lvl 50 I believe is poison damage. Why not give us a spell at 48 or 49 that does disease or maybe magic damage so </FONT>"</P> <P> </P> <P>Altought i'm by my self also Warlock its funny to see lvls at witch you mean upgrades should come... Wizzy 38. Warlock 48.</P> <P>O-o.</P> <P> Not only tier V, but bi part of tier IV is also broken, no correctly implemented, wrong designed. No, i'm no tending to be a "God voice" here, but seeing a spell tier IV-V that is in all matter worthly as tier II spell make me ill.</P> <P>This is not only inbetween wizzy/warlocs. All casters have this issue. ( my first war fury , trust me sourcers have it muuuuuch better als Furys)</P> <P> </P>

[CrimsonAveng]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Andre Z wrote:<BR> <P>"<FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>a 38-40 lvl spell that maybe does heat damge or magic damage that hits for around 1-2k or so? And for warlocks our spell at lvl 50 I believe is poison damage. Why not give us a spell at 48 or 49 that does disease or maybe magic damage so </FONT>"</P> <P> </P> <P>Altought i'm by my self also Warlock its funny to see lvls at witch you mean upgrades should come... Wizzy 38. Warlock 48.</P> <P>O-o.</P> <P> Not only tier V, but bi part of tier IV is also broken, no correctly implemented, wrong designed. No, i'm no tending to be a "God voice" here, but seeing a spell tier IV-V that is in all matter worthly as tier II spell make me ill.</P> <P>This is not only inbetween wizzy/warlocs. All casters have this issue. ( my first war fury , trust me sourcers have it muuuuuch better als Furys)</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>My bad, that was a typo. That heat upgrade from 38-40 should read 47-49. And I don't understand what you mean by "God Voice". Actually, the only other thing in your post I understand is you think that Fury high level spells are broken also. That may be, but you are preaching to the wrong crowd here. I doubt any high lvl wiz/warlock would have a high lvl healer also to know what you are talking about. (So you are saying that you have a 40ish warlock and a 40ish fury? Nice trick.....)</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>But even so, it's talkin apples and oranges. Healers, when they heal, dont get resisted by the MT, the tanks arent immune to your heals, and their heals arent reduced by mitigation. SO high level healers ALWAYS heal for somewhere between 600 to 900 with several heals, right? Imagine if your heal sometimes healed for 400, or it was resisted, or the tank was immune....that's the problems we are having.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>We know that most of the 40ish level spells are trash. Heck I'm only lvl 45 and I got 4 spells already from 40-45 that I didn't bother to upgrade or put on my hotbar because they were obviously inferior to their 30ish counterparts.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>We could use a complete overhaul of all spells 40-49. But that's probably NOT gonna happen anytime soon. So as a stopgap fix, I'm proposing an alternate damage spell at high levels with decent damage, so that when we face a mob immune to ice comet or devestation, we don't sit there with our thumbs stick up our posteriors.</FONT></DIV>

[Gora]

<DIV>What raid encounters is SH killing that you are generating 275 DPS adara?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Goraga</DIV> <DIV>Illumination</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV>

[Zcenicx]

<P>Goraga, this thread wasn't about raid encounters but heroic (group x 1).</P> <P>I'm sorry to say Shadowhaven only has 13 ppl 49+, so we haven't looked much further than the group x 2s yet.</P> <P>(not counting the 39-44 group x 4s, they've been spanked enough)</P>

[CrimsonAveng]

<P><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>Did some more parsing with combat stats this time. This is in Permafrost against 46-50 giants and golems (either 3 normal, 2 with ^, or 1 with ^^). Ill go with crude averages from my observations with one column for each type of encounter)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>                               normal              ^ group of 2             ^^ group of 1 </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>45 warlock (me):        75                       100                            150</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>44 wizzy                     110                    100                            90</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>47 guardian                70                       50                             30</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>46 ranger                  120                     100                            60</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>43 SK                         90                       80                            60</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>So as you can see, the type of group matters on dps (which we knew). Since all 3 types appeared at about the same frequency in PF the rough average #s for the trips there are:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>warlock                 110ish</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>wizzy                     100ish</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>guardian                  50ish</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>ranger                     95ish</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>sk                            75ish</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>However, if you scale up to areas with more ^^, then wizzys and especially warlocks would have the advantage. So I guess I can see a beef. If I were a wizzy, would I trade 25% of my damage for more armor, mititagtion, and hps? Me, no. Maybe some would though. Just my 2c but I'm trying to empathsize here. Im close to 46 and plan to get 47 this week so I'll post changes as I see them.</FONT></DIV>

[Nibiuno]

I guess Ill go ahead and post parses of my guild. Monks with prismatics can break 200 dps regularly on raid mobs that arent immune to crushing. They will out DPS scouts and wizards on almost any raid mob in the game, as you will be forced to use fire spells or feeding the main tank. Once melee get fabled weapons, mages can not touch them in regular dps output.  You can upgrade your spells to adept 3, maybe master 1 nukes, but thats it.  Youve reached the cap, no gear will change your DPS. You guys can post all the parses from your bs 45 groups, or 40 groups, or whatever you want.  The point is at raiding levels (50) a fighter class will out damage you most of the time if they have good gear. I can barely break 250 dps on mobs without ice immunities when I have clarity.  Those are so few and far between that you will regularly be out damaged by other classes.  When you get to raiding levels, download Statalyzer and put it on monitor.  You will quickly see that unless the stars line up and the mob isnt immune to ice (goodluck with that - 90%+ of raid mobs are immune to half your damage) you will be out DPSed by classes that can tank, FD, have 2x the hp as you, etc. Ill go ahead and post parses with screenshots of the output by Statalyzer from most of the raid mobs tomorrow.  You will see that Monk types are the best DPS in the game, followed by Swashbucklers and Assassins.  Ive dropped to a pathetic 30 dps on a raid when we didnt have an enchanter, because the mob was immune to ice and I was feeding the MT constantly. Even guardians can break 100 DPS tanking with a prismatic weapon.  My guild does not have a single warlock, so I can not tell you what their DPS is on raids.  I know it has to be a lot higher than a wizard based on the immunities raid mobs exhibit. For you clowns that want to say "BUT WE HAVE UTILITY", this is what I have to say to you: You are a f'ing idiot. Monks have the best avoidance/blocking buffs in game outside Troubadors.  They also have the best DPS in the game on 90% of encounters.  Swashbucklers and Assassins are not far behind. Summoners are the most hurt class in the game, with a pathetic ~70 dps average with their pets included.  All mage classes need a seriously look compared to the other classes in game.  Anyway, Im done ranting. <div></div>