Best strategy to avoid drawing aggro in groups?

[Valdec]

<DIV>As a relatively new wiz (24), and after upgrading several of my nukes (BoF, IS, etc.) to Adept3, I'm finding that I'm increasingly having problems by drawing aggro.  Even with a good tank and after initally casting only roots and DoTs, when I begin nuking, suddenly mobs find me <EM>very</EM> interesting. :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does anyone have a battle-tested winning combination for doing beaucoup dmg while avoiding becoming mob feed?  If so, I'd really like to hear it!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV>- Valdecor</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[EvilAmi]

<DIV>get a bezerker as a tank</DIV>

[Lieuen]

<P>I haven't acquired and Adept III spells yet so I don't know if that level of spell causes any additonal chance to draw aggro.</P> <P>As other posters have suggested, I let the tank develop hate for a few seconds before beginning nukes and so far I draw aggro relatively infrequently. </P> <P>My current parry skill level has helped immensely when I do draw aggro - but based on what's going on in the test server this will change substantially and drawing aggro will become a much more serious occurrence.</P> <P>If you are not letting the tank build up hate before you let lose you may try that and see what happens.</P>

[MeLoo]

<DIV>My policy is to wait untill the mob is below 90% health, as well as using first spells like dispell arcane etc. that has no nuke component in them.</DIV> <DIV>As long as the tank keeps taunting, i wont pull aggro. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, that is, unless the tank has only app1 taunts (u'd be supriced how many do ..).</DIV><p>Message Edited by MeLoonn on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:24 PM</span>

[TheC]

I find that having a tank a couple levels ahead of you solves the problem, if the tank is lower than you then that's when it's a big problem and you have to hold back.  Also depends on how well the tank plays. 

[TooFarGo]

Aye, having your tank a level or 2 above you, with ad1 or better taunts, is a Good Thing.  Also, waiting until the mob is down about 10% health, is a Very Good Thing. .....unless you're dealing with large mobs (4-6 in the mob)...then spam the suckers repeatedly with your AoEs and give the tank something to think about...heheheheheheheheheh <div></div>

[adamflanagan]

im usually grouped with a tank a few levels above me so i can (usually) nuke to my hearts content <div></div>

[n0kn0k]

Wait 3 sec, till after the tank is in his tanking spot, and then start with DOT's. Shouldn't have a problem then. <div></div>

[seabla]

<DIV>Also, standing a good distance from the MOB makes a big difference.  If you are up close they are much more likely to break off and attack you.  Also waiting a bit before starting the seriouse damage.  Start with a DOT and work your way up the damage ladder.  When I do all these things I almost never get agro.  When I'm feeling lazy and open with Ball of Fire, or am training up my melee skills I get agro a lot.</DIV>

[Zcenicx]

<DIV>Smart way is to wait ~5 secs after the pull, then go slowly with the debuff dots first.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When those have landed, you can usually start nuking quite heavily - depending on the tank of course.</DIV> <DIV>Never, ever, overestimate a paladin or SK. Go zerker or guardian if you wanna feel safe.</DIV>

[Falc618]

<DIV> <P>Actually, the best way to not steal agro, is to just use common sense in the battle and know whats going on.  You don't need a tank 3 levels higher than you, I was the first in my guild to 50, and the first wizard on the server to 50, I was always 2 levels or so above the tank.  Just realize what happens in the fight.  If my tank has built up say 500 points of agro with taunts, done 1,000 points of damage, and healed himself through reactive heals for another 1,000 thats about 2,500 hp of hate.  If I drop my Ice Comet then for 3,600, mob turns on me.  Its that simple.  In long fights, know that we're heavy DPS and if we unload, its instant agro.  We do have other very useful spells, like mana feed and our debuffs.  Taking a break from nuking in a long fight, and feeding some mana to the healers, or others that really need it, not only will help your group significantly (I've actually been out DPS's by the berzerker before as we were 1 grouping an x2 mob and it was more important for me to make sure the healers had mana than it was for me to nuke like crazy)  but it will also control your nuking to the point that you'll be less likely to steal agro.  </P> <P>One other thing you can do is to download a program called combat stats.  Its a parser and has a nice feature that will put a transparent box on top of EQ that will show damage given, damage taken, and dps of all people in the group real time.  That way you can monitor whats going on in the fight, and get a rough idea of when to nuke.  </P></DIV>

[Ishma]

<P>Make the tank work and try to do as much dps as possible. </P> <P>Score a point every time you get attacked. That way you are performing at 100% efficiency and doing as much damage as possible.</P> <P>If you die then the tank is too low in level and find a higher level one or one that can hold aggro better.</P> <P>Makes for a fun time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Falc618]

That is the stupidest thing I have ever *$%#&!ing heard.  Score a point everytime you get attacked cuz that means your performing at 100% efficiency?  Are you a *$%#&!ing [Removed for Content]???  I mean really, I don't even know where to begin here, but I'll just say that if I Ice Comet at the beginning of the fight to get hit and score myself a point, first of all I'm dead, cuz a few 2k hits and I'll drop, and I'm sure my group would be [Removed for Content] off.  I'm not even going to bother wasting any more of my time with this *$%#&! clown.

[Jaxidi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Valdecor wrote:<BR> <DIV>As a relatively new wiz (24), and after upgrading several of my nukes (BoF, IS, etc.) to Adept3, I'm finding that I'm increasingly having problems by drawing aggro.  Even with a good tank and after initally casting only roots and DoTs, when I begin nuking, suddenly mobs find me <EM>very</EM> interesting. :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does anyone have a battle-tested winning combination for doing beaucoup dmg while avoiding becoming mob feed?  If so, I'd really like to hear it!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV>- Valdecor</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have a lvl26 wiz and I have no problem with agro.  My big nukes are adept 3 (little ones are adept 1) and as soon as the tank gets positioned and whacking the mob I hit with a big nuke, dots/debufs, then nuke like crazy.  The key is to find a tank who realizes that his job should be 100% dedicated to holding agro, not providing dps.  This may not be the best thing always but in my scenario it is as my wiz always groups with a warlock friend.  This way we can both provide nonstop dps without worrying about agro.</P> <P>I'm sure it changes at higher levels though....  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <DIV><STRONG>Edit:</STRONG> BTW, this is with a paladin as our tank...</DIV><p>Message Edited by Jaxidian on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:28 PM</span>

[Aeva]

<P>There is some very good advise in the posts above, and some not so good (which I think should be obvious). but I did not see anyone mention this.</P> <P>In your post you mention you start with Roots and debuffs...  if you have a tank why would you Root?  Roots are Massive agro builders, if your tank is pulling and taunting you should not be rooting, excluding exceptions like tethering 1 of 2 while with a small group and other tricky stuff I would not be rooting.</P> <P>anyway mabey thats the problem, mabey not, I almost never get agro, mabey 1 time in 4hours of play. and that almost always just bad timing on a buff or to quick on the nuke draw.</P> <P>BTW, SK and Pally hold agro just fine if they know how to play their class, if you don't see them dropping group buffs during battle and they are loosing agro, they don't know what they are doing, imho</P>

[iceriven2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aevarr wrote:<BR> <P>There is some very good advise in the posts above, and some not so good (which I think should be obvious). but I did not see anyone mention this.</P> <P>In your post you mention you start with Roots and debuffs...  if you have a tank why would you Root?  Roots are Massive agro builders, if your tank is pulling and taunting you should not be rooting, excluding exceptions like tethering 1 of 2 while with a small group and other tricky stuff I would not be rooting.</P> <P>anyway mabey thats the problem, mabey not, I almost never get agro, mabey 1 time in 4hours of play. and that almost always just bad timing on a buff or to quick on the nuke draw.</P> <P>BTW, SK and Pally hold agro just fine if they know how to play their class, if you don't see them dropping group buffs during battle and they are loosing agro, they don't know what they are doing, imho</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LVL 42 AoE root is very nice, unbreakable and if done in the fight and you over spam it will not go to you b/c its rooted

[Aeva]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> iceriven2 wrote:<BR><BR>LVL 42 AoE root is very nice, unbreakable and if done in the fight and you over spam it will not go to you b/c its rooted <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>it is nice, but it is resistable and like all roots builds a lot of agro. It lasts 30 seconds, while the recast timer is 45sec and the adept 1 version takes 140 mana.  think I would rather manage agro in other ways that don't consume my nuking time or power. Using this against a tough multi-mob group encounter seems like a certain way to cause some havoc (tank having to reagro the resited ones and you really hoping he builds some hate on the rest so they don't wack you 30 seconds after your cleaver move.  for solo however, this spell rocks (also for the occational super sized pull where it can't get much worse and the 30 second relief is woth the risk)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Aevarr on <span class=date_text>04-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:28 PM</span>

[iceriven2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aevarr wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> iceriven2 wrote:<BR><BR>LVL 42 AoE root is very nice, unbreakable and if done in the fight and you over spam it will not go to you b/c its rooted <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>it is nice, but it is resistable and like all roots builds a lot of agro. It lasts 30 seconds, while the recast timer is 45sec and the adept 1 version takes 140 mana.  think I would rather manage agro in other ways that don't consume my nuking time or power. Using this against a tough multi-mob group encounter seems like a certain way to cause some havoc (tank having to reagro the resited ones and you really hoping he builds some hate on the rest so they don't wack you 30 seconds after your cleaver move.  for solo however, this spell rocks (also for the occational super sized pull where it can't get much worse and the 30 second relief is woth the risk)</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Aevarr on <SPAN class=date_text>04-18-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:28 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Think the resist depend on your Subj skill could be wrong.  I just remember it being 20 points lower then what i can max it at and it resisted a lot.  So i actually spammed the root every fight  eventually it maxed and since then i think i only got like one or two resists on it so.... once your skill is up there you shouldn't have a problem.  If ya do then i have no clue why lol b/c it works for me.  Also on the agro thing, do you really get that much agro on the spell.  I can remember spamming the spell all the time and at differnent times in a fight and i have never taken the agro from the tank b/c of it.? weird i guess. Or i just been luckie up till now.</DIV>

[Falc618]

I actually use Ring of cold as an agro reducer.  Yeah, thats right, root can be an agro reducer.  If you get agro and can get root off, you simply back away and the mob will turn back to the tank, seeing as youre too far for it to hit.  Also, if you know your group can take the mob out by the time the root breaks, just root and let it loose, as long as your not in melee range, the mob will not turn on you. 

[Tarkadal]

<P>I'm not so sure that applying DoT's is the way to go in avoiding aggro, despite the accepted wisdom. Permit me to use a little anectodatal evidence.</P> <P>I was hunting golems in Varsoons the other day with a 32 guardian, and myself mentored down to 30, when we decide to pull a lvl34 named. Now I got killed once before by this guy while in a pickup group (and being a proud wizard, I'm still embarssed to heck about that), so I decide to take it very easy. I use the same strategy as before, but this time I wait longer before applying my DoT, and take more time between casting them. To be super safe, I don't even nuke until I've completed 2 cycles of DoTs, and only nuke sparingly after that. Long before the mob gets to 50% he turns on me.</P> <P>Something's wrong I think to myself. Maybe my experience from other games is leading me astray. So I decide to try another strategy. This time I wait for the tank to get one taunt off after the pull and just chain nuke. Surprise surprise, no aggro. I've tried it again in other encounters, and it seems to hold more or less true, DoT then Nuke leads to a greater aggro than Nuke alone.</P> <P>Now, if I was more thourough, I would put on my DPS parser, if I think about it, I just might do it tonight to compare the DPS of the 2 strategies. But there are a few things to consider here. </P> <P>First, our DoTs are also debuffs. There is the possibility that they give aggro for the damage they do as well as for the debuff.</P> <P>Second, being debuffs your nukes will do more damage while the DoTs are active. Not DoTting is like placing a convienient throttle on your DPS. </P> <P>Third, DoT aggro might be wonky. Look at how much trouble Wardens have with healing aggro compared to other healers (if their ranting is to be believed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), and remember that their primary method is using the DoT counterpart of Heals over Time. </P> <P>I could be way off here, but from my experience I feel that DoT's aren't as aggro-safe as many Wizards assume them to be.</P>

[iceriven2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tarkadal wrote:<BR> <P>I'm not so sure that applying DoT's is the way to go in avoiding aggro, despite the accepted wisdom. Permit me to use a little anectodatal evidence.</P> <P>I was hunting golems in Varsoons the other day with a 32 guardian, and myself mentored down to 30, when we decide to pull a lvl34 named. Now I got killed once before by this guy while in a pickup group (and being a proud wizard, I'm still embarssed to heck about that), so I decide to take it very easy. I use the same strategy as before, but this time I wait longer before applying my DoT, and take more time between casting them. To be super safe, I don't even nuke until I've completed 2 cycles of DoTs, and only nuke sparingly after that. Long before the mob gets to 50% he turns on me.</P> <P>Something's wrong I think to myself. Maybe my experience from other games is leading me astray. So I decide to try another strategy. This time I wait for the tank to get one taunt off after the pull and just chain nuke. Surprise surprise, no aggro. I've tried it again in other encounters, and it seems to hold more or less true, DoT then Nuke leads to a greater aggro than Nuke alone.</P> <P>Now, if I was more thourough, I would put on my DPS parser, if I think about it, I just might do it tonight to compare the DPS of the 2 strategies. But there are a few things to consider here. </P> <P>First, our DoTs are also debuffs. There is the possibility that they give aggro for the damage they do as well as for the debuff.</P> <P>Second, being debuffs your nukes will do more damage while the DoTs are active. Not DoTting is like placing a convienient throttle on your DPS. </P> <P>Third, DoT aggro might be wonky. Look at how much trouble Wardens have with healing aggro compared to other healers (if their ranting is to be believed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), and remember that their primary method is using the DoT counterpart of Heals over Time. </P> <P>I could be way off here, but from my experience I feel that DoT's aren't as aggro-safe as many Wizards assume them to be.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Srry but thats weird in my opinion.  Guess i am spoiled with such good tanks.  If i wait five sec for the tanks to get agro then proceed with my routine i rarely if ever steal agro.  and i start with 2 dots then nuke away.  Only time i steal agro is when i try to by buffing myself, stun, etc intentially and the tank is slacken.  Most of the tanks i grp with have app 4 or adept 1 tuants so  they don't need to be uber tanks.  My guildie that tanked for me the most for the longest time was around 3 lvls lower then me and he did just fine. <p>Message Edited by iceriven2 on <span class=date_text>04-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:43 PM</span>

[DaWodin]

<P><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Using root when the tank has agro is a bad idea.  Unless you're being chased don't use a root when in a group, it adds a lot of agro.  </P> <P>Also don't buff when in combat (accord, flametounge, magi shielding etc...)</P>

[Falc618]

I totally disagree on that DaWodin.  If you know what your doing, root can help you not get agro.  If you're at the point that you know youre close to turning the mob, and also know the mob will be dead before Ring of Cold breaks, then do it.  Doesn't matter if root adds a lot of agro, because the mob will stay on the tank.  The mob will not agro you if it cant hit you.  Even casters will not cast on you, as you will not be in melee range.  This allows you to completely unload on the mob without taking agro.  Of course, if the mob isn't killed before root expires, its running straight at you, but thats why I said, only when you know you can kill it in 36 seconds.

[Admh]

use crap nukes/dots at the beginning.. when mob is @ 80%.. ring of cold and start nuking 600-3k bombs.. it will be dead before it goes after you.

[Redorio]

<P>*lvl 38 conjuror here*</P> <P>1) Debuffs that lower mob mitigation or spell avoidance are awesome. For example, Roaring Flames, my cold fire debuff dot, boosts damage of all other fire and cold effects, inclduing its own DoT, so a DoT pulse that hits for say 65 hits normally, may hit for 75 or such. DoTs are less aggro than nukes it seems (still wonder if burst DPs spikes cause aggro in EQ2 like it did in EQ1, hm)</P> <P>2) Dispel Arcane and Root are *HUGE* aggro. root though ~can~ if it doesn't break too quick, allow a pet or tank to re-aquire aggro. Stuns though are much better for this,by a mile: less aggro, let melee do more damage and gain more hate.</P> <P>3) Melee doing more DPs = more hate. But idiot tanks who haven't upgraded their abilities beyond App1 or don't use taunt = BOOT their slack butts! :></P> <P>4) Range may affect hate, unsureon this, ping pong sucks, but so does eating a Barrage or gaining more hate than you should.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Sorano]

May I ask what you guys are fighting where you have time to cast Ring of Cold? On average ^^ mobs are dead in 30secs and the 4 sec cast on ROC will seriously eat into your dps. I guess in a way that means it's a good aggro reducer since you are spending time casting it instead of a couple of nukes. The only time I use ROC is if we get an add and I need to park the mob until we are ready to kill it.

[Falc618]

<P>I fight things ranging from 46 to like 54, either usually ^^ if not ^^^ and sometimes x2.  Ring of Cold will work on x2 encounters, but not the triple ups.  Now if I take the 4 seconds to root so I can go all out on the mob and kill it in 30 seconds, I dont see how that is seriously eating into my DPS.  Why do I say that?  Because my other option is to slow down my attacks so I don't steal agro from the tank, which would lower my DPS more than the 4 seconds to cast root, or I can go all out, take agro, and if its a mob that hits me for like 1.5k, I'm probably dead in like 3 or 4 hits (when you include heals) and wasted a lot of the cleric's mana with direct heals (as if they put a reactive heal on me its going to be extremely difficult to lose agro)  Maybe if you are fighting things that don't hit hard, then its fine, as when I'm fighting a 45 or 46, I can nuke more and know even if I steal agro, it wont be a problem cuz I can kill it before it kills me.</P> <P>Secondly, root can be used to bail out another member of your group.  Lets say your healer gets agro and by healing himself, is increasing himself on the hate list.  Well, taking 4 seconds to cast a root and telling the healer to back off, will switch agro back to the tank.  I'f rather take 4 seconds to make sure the tank holds agro.</P>

[Sorano]

I spend a lot of time xping in Perma, so it sounds like we are fighting similar level mobs. I can pretty much hard out nuke and not pull aggro of the tank. On the rare occassion that I do pull aggro, I have Paralyze to fall back on, then off course ROC. If I have to cast ROC during a pull, my DPS takes a hit and I end up getting beat by either the swashy or the monk, which is not something I enjoy at all. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway each to their own. If casting ROC every pull works for you, then by all means keep doing it! :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Subtlekni]

I wanted to offer my perception, from a Guardian's point of view. I haven't played  any other figher class much, so this is mainly guardian specific, hope it helps. Please do wait till at least the mob in fully engaged and has stopped moving. One trick I like is to pull the mob at extreme range back to the group and buff the group as it approaches, this builds really good hate before we are first engaged and helps me keep the other classes alive for the entire fight.  Taunts are not instant cast, so if you can wait a few seconds for me to actual cast them, they work much better.  The above is an ideal situation where I'm at full power, all my buffs & taunts have recycled their cast times, and I have a long pull to build pre fight hate.  The above situation doesn't happen often..... Some times for effeciency or depending on the situation the group will be constantly fighting. In these cases buffs and taunts might not even be up whenever a new mob is engaged.  In those cases just a few more seconds really helps make sure that mob isn't going to run over and eat the caster. If you are playing with a guardian, and there is no crowd control there, or the crowd control isn't working, I personally love when casters use AOE spells, assuming it is a single linked group (one group of say heroic, as apposed to one group of heroic plus another group that added, think Sol).  If they can burn the main target long enough for me to cycle two or 3 decent area of effect taunts/attacks/taunting attacks against the full group (say 12 secs) then it is normally ok to burn the full group.  Guess that might be geared more towards conjurers, but still.... I'm missing a few end game items - Prismatic, GEBs, and haven't managed to even win a screaming mace starter yet, so in long long fights (say when a 4 person group decides to take on a blue or higher 2x named mob), I normally only use taunts, no attacks. Even so, without a mana regen class present, in a 12 minute fight I can find myself out of mana and hoping might of the land will proc so I can taunt again before the scout pulls argo.  In those situations, please don't be afraid to feed me a little mana. I can't taunt when I'm out of mana, except with hold the line, and sometimes in long small fights, that is just not enough. (Especially now that HTL is on a 3 minute timer). Anyway, most wizards that I group with do an excellent job as is. In EQ1, when doing normal experience groups, wizards used to add what I called stored potential.  They had mana  that  could be stored up for when  a certain mob  absolutely positively had to die fast, but as far as experience grinding, they didn't get much love until later expansions.   EQ2  seems to have give you guys a lot more power, and people are silly not to have mages of any time in a group.  I do take exception to the one comment made above about burn as much as you can and when you pull hate, you will know that you are doing it right.  If that were efficent, then you could just forget about the tank all together, and fill his spot with another mage. Anytime a wizard pulls hate, I have to burn through a ton of power to get it back. During that time the healer has to shift to healing the wizard which isn't normally as efficent as healing me.  So the healer uses up power, I use up power (and also I normally have to cycle every buff and taunt I can to get hate back, so I have no ability to generate hate again until the timers cycle), and the group has to wait longer to start the next fight. I'm sure it is obvious, but I'll point out that when you do pull hate.... stop attacking. Maybe, maybe a stun, but stop trying to burn the mob down. That is just more hate that I have to compete against.   Any way, my 2cents. I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong, and I'm willing to listen to that. But above is my advice, and observations. <div></div>

[TooFarGo]

Absolutely...unless the mob is close to death anyway, if you draw hate *stop nuking*! The healer and the tank will sometimes play "catch the aggro" while the tank is trying to get aggro back and the healer is healing the papermage, but usually within a taunt or two you can start nuking again. =) <div></div>

[ecoskii]

<DIV>Excellent response Subtleknife - great to hear from Guardian perspective & mirrors the best tank actions I have seen.  I rarely mana feed tanks but might do it a bit more now.   If I'm in a pick-up group I'm not surprised to draw aggro <U>once</U> sometime in the first few fights  - it's not intentional, it will always happen toward the end of a fight but it lets me set my limits for dps which vary dramatically depending on lvl/class/individual (and gently reminds the tank to keep tauntingn as there is dps about!!!).  As a 45 wiz i'm not happy with RoC in any normal fight/grp but have used it in daft set-ups (4 wizzies & a scout - fast deaths on someones part) to chain freeze mobs.  </DIV>