Balancing Warlocks and Wizards [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Pants

04-01-2005, 08:29 PM

<div></div><div></div>I've started this thread because the thread about the imbalance between warlocks and wizards has degenerated into a slinging match of meaningless calculations and insults. This thread is focused on what changes can be made to bring the two classes back into balance fairly. First of all, I play a 50 Wizard on the Oggok server and have been grouping with a 44 Warlock named Geeaye a few times around Cazic Thule and some other areas. I've been using combatstats to parse DPS from everyone and here are the results from a longish fight as in, 2 or 3 full spell lineups dished out. I've asterixed some names because not everyone likes to be forumised, but anyone who plays on the server pretty much knows who they are. HH Pantsu 2879:ice comet D***s 16532:168.7 Geeaye 13064:123.7 Pantsu 10188:104.0 F****a 9739:99.4 M********y 2293:23.4 W**d 914:9.3 I'm not even going to approach as to how D***s, a fighter class made top DPS. But that was on a long fight, and Geeaye, a 44 Warlock clearly out damaged a 50 Wizard which I think is a little out of balance. HH Pantsu 2283:ice comet Geeaye 4689:146.5 D***s 4047:126.5 Pantsu 4041:126.3 F****a 3468:108.4 M********y 356:11.1 W**d 189:5.9 This one above was on a short fight and Geeaye still made top. Before people start posting blah blah blah spell linup this and blah that. My spell lineup is fine and me and Geeaye both have about the same amount of adepts. The Wizards crying for Warlocks to be nerfed are out of their minds warlocks do NOT need to be nerfed, they do appropriate DPS for their class, it is Wizards who are still underpowered. The Warlocks saying they deserve the better stick of DPS because Wizards have more utilty are out of their minds because evac/feeds are NOT the wizard defining trait, read the EQ2 Wizard description. Now, first of all, the resists on arcane spells is ridiculous and half the raid mobs aren't even effected by Ice Comet at all. A general reduction in all mobs resistances to both warlock spell bases (disease, poison) and wizard spell bases (fire, ice) will go along way to fixing things up a bit as well as giving a boost to the other Mage classes. Reduce the re-use timer on Ice Comet or at least make it work on raid mobs like Alangria. This will put wizard DPS up a bit closer to warlocks without the warlocks crying murder that they've been nerfed. I mean lets face it, when the big 'mages go nuke happy' patch came, we got the damage on ice comet just over doubled but the re-use timer was more than doubled too, along with the addded resists it puts Wizards off quite a bit. Give the warlocks some extra utility. Going through the warlock spell list, they lack an Evac spell which i never hear the end of. To avoid creating a mere duplicate of wizards but instead making them disease/poison based. I believe giving the warlocks something like an AE stun or an emergency group ward with a similar re-use timer to Wizard evac would be a good addition to balance out Wizard evac. Immolation and Piercing Icicles damage increase. The re-use timer on these two is pretty good and should be left alone. But immolation resists too much for it's long cast time and needs extra damage on it. Piercing Icicles is in most wizards linup but it's pretty under-powered still, if it's initial damage was beefed up and the cold resist debuff augmented it would make things easier. Warlocks need more disease! Going through the warlock spell linups, I can't see any disease resist spells which I think they should be quite adept at, again going over their nukes too many are poison based. Adding an extra warlock disease based nuke would stop them depending on poison so much. In a summary, Warlocks should get more utility with some form of disease buff and an emergency spell along the lines of evac along with an extra disease nuke/DoT (Putting the focus equally on Poison and Disease on their nukes like Wizards have fire and ice). Wizards need the re-use timer put back into a sane timeframe on Ice Comet, the damage increased on Immolation or it's cast time reduced with piercing icicles doing some extra damage on the initial hit, finally those [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] resists, seeing Ice Comet resist 25% of the time isn't cool and I'm sure the other Mage classes have encountered annoyance with them as well. These are just my opinion on how Wizards and Warlocks can be brought into more balance, this is NOT a big cry about Warlocks being overpowered like the other thread. Warlocks are pretty balanced damage wise, but some adjustment to the poison/disease ratio might make things a bit easier on them. It's the Wizards that remain underpowered and Wizards and Warlocks should NEVER be calling for each other to be nerfed. <div></div>Message Edited by Pantsus on 04-01-2005 07:30 AM

Alfgand

04-01-2005, 08:44 PM

<HR> <DIV>The Wizards crying for Warlocks to be nerfed are out of their minds warlocks do NOT need to be nerfed, they do appropriate DPS for their class, it is Wizards who are still underpowered. The Warlocks saying they deserve the better stick of DPS because Wizards have more utilty are out of their minds because evac/feeds are NOT the wizard defining trait, read the EQ2 Wizard description. <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>100 percent right on target !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> In a summary, Warlocks should get more utility with some form of disease buff and an emergency spell along the lines of evac along with an extra disease nuke/DoT (Putting the focus equally on Poison and Disease on their nukes like Wizards have fire and ice). Wizards need the re-use timer put back into a sane timeframe on Ice Comet, the damage increased on Immolation or it's cast time reduced with piercing icicles doing some extra damage on the initial hit, finally those [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] resists, seeing Ice Comet resist 25% of the time isn't cool and I'm sure the other Mage classes have encountered annoyance with them as well. <HR> Sounds good to me. <HR> These are just my opinion on how Wizards and Warlocks can be brought into more balance, this is NOT a big cry about Warlocks being overpowered like the other thread. Warlocks are pretty balanced damage wise, but some adjustment to the poison/disease ratio might make things a bit easier on them. It's the Wizards that remain underpowered and Wizards and Warlocks should NEVER be calling for each other to be nerfed. <HR> Yep, very, very important.

Darien al'Staff

04-01-2005, 10:05 PM

GREAT post <div></div>

Sokolov

04-01-2005, 10:32 PM

<DIV>As a warlock, I'd give up DPS to have more utility. I want group debuffs, stuns, and what have yous. I want more nukes that do comparable damage but with different secondary effects. I want to be able to change my casting decisions based on a mob's type, life remaining, and encounter make-up. I don't want to cast the same 4 nukes and 2 debuffs over and over with a stun thrown in there every minute or so.</DIV>

Alfgand

04-01-2005, 10:46 PM

But Sokolov, the smart Wizards do NOT want you give up any DPS. We want you to keep your DPS and give you more utility and have Wizard DPS raised to match Warlocks.

Sokolov

04-01-2005, 10:49 PM

<DIV>That's no problem. I am just saying I'd rather see more utility, generally, than more DPS.</DIV>

Raminicus

04-01-2005, 10:53 PM

I don't believe I posted on the other thread. At first I was upset at all the Wizards calling for Warlock nerfs. I can't stand when one class tries to do that to another class. I began to believe that Wizards give up some of their DPS in order to be more of a utility class. Each Sorcerer class can clearly go into DPS mode, but a Wizard is more versatile. The message in this thread is, in my opinion, a great one. I appreciate and thank you for the tone of the post, for calling for balancing without nerfing. I also think you have some great ideas in there, and worked through everything very intelligently. One question remains. Do we really want 2 classes identical but for the damage type (ice/fire vs poison/disease) used? I don't know where I stand on that question, but I think it's worth asking. Again, thanks for a great post!

Violator

04-01-2005, 11:47 PM

I personally think that the power usage of wizards should be looked into still. Especially ball of flame. 160-170 power on a 600-900 dmg spelll every 6 seconds draws alot of power. But no nerf, I duo'd some named mobs with a warlock friend of mine for fbss last night, was amazing the damage they could do, and do in half the time. But i did evac us when we were done ; ) <div></div>

slard2

04-01-2005, 11:54 PM

<div></div>I've said it before and I'll say it again that fighter archetype DPS is still pretty d@mn crazy. They just shouldn't be dishing out that much damage period. There are TONS of raid mobs that are totally unaffected by cold based spells. You can see that just by reading Cogglesworth's Compendium. It's ridiculous to attribute a large portion of wizard DPS to a spell such as Ice Comet and then make all the mobs immune to it! Read the compendium and you'll see phrases like "completely immune to cold based damage and highly resistant to fire." Well yay for us! Can't land debuffs when the vast majority of them are cold based and so can't land much of anything. Talking with a warlock in my guild (who also happens to play a wizard), the Warlock spells seem to have much more benefical effects than the wizard counterparts. I've also asked about resists and it seems that theirs are significantly less due to the disease/poison nature of their attacks. I won't speak for the warlock community, but I tend to think that they are just as religious about DPS as we wizards are. Utility is nice, but it's second to damage output. Period. Warlock DPS isn't the problem. Wizards just need a little more work. rastaoun 50 wiz Ascendance - <a href="http://www.ascendanceguild.com" target="_blank">www.ascendanceguild.com</a> Neriak Server <div></div>Message Edited by slard271 on 04-01-2005 10:56 AM

xard

04-02-2005, 02:09 AM

but...no one ask for dmg fix about lower level spells? im a wiz 32 and with westfend ice spear my nominal max dmg is about 584 a warlock lvl 28 with "ordinary spell" app4 (mine is adp2) has nominal max dmg 604 (effective dmg is higher too) the warlock spell has a 9 sec recast time and mine 12 second...2 second of cast time and mine 3 second...he spend 85 power me 105.... the warlock has also a sgreater dmg dot and debuff,they are area and not single (in some cases are better have single one) so...i dont know why i should make fewer dmg than somebody that is 4 lvl below me excuse me for my poor english! im learning it hehe can u say to me if SOE has something in development or in concept about fixing? because wizard actually at my level has the equal dmg of an assassin (with lower armor lol) <div></div>

Mastire

04-02-2005, 02:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pantsus wrote: First of all, I play a 50 Wizard on the Oggok server and have been grouping with a 44 Warlock named Geeaye a few times around Cazic Thule and some other areas. I've been using combatstats to parse DPS from everyone and here are the results from a longish fight as in, 2 or 3 full spell lineups dished out. I've asterixed some names because not everyone likes to be forumised, but anyone who plays on the server pretty much knows who they are. HH Pantsu 2879:ice comet D***s 16532:168.7 Geeaye 13064:123.7 Pantsu 10188:104.0 F****a 9739:99.4 M********y 2293:23.4 W**d 914:9.3 I'm not even going to approach as to how D***s, a fighter class made top DPS. But that was on a long fight, and Geeaye, a 44 Warlock clearly out damaged a 50 Wizard which I think is a little out of balance. HH Pantsu 2283:ice comet Geeaye 4689:146.5 D***s 4047:126.5 Pantsu 4041:126.3 F****a 3468:108.4 M********y 356:11.1 W**d 189:5.9 <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Heya 41 Warlock here, I have all adept 3's for my Spells and a master 1 for my Noxous bolt so I can deal out the damage. Last time I grouped in CT I was doing about 5 DPS more on average tehn the 42 wizzard. Some fighs he won some fighs I won. It all depended if I got off my 2nd Nil Distorion. When I do I nornaly overkill the mob and boost my DPS. When as you guys can't do that Since Imolation< the spell = to Nil Distorion> is a dot and takes some time to do max damage. And why are you complaining about warlocks when you were beeten 2X by a non warlock class D***s seamed to kick your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] both times as well.</DIV>

Alfgand

04-02-2005, 03:04 AM

Some people are still not getting it. People choose the Wizard class because they want to blow things up with a big boom. Its that simple. No one in their right mind mind picks Wizard, primarily for the utility. Its nice to have some utility but people picked Wizard because they wanted to destroy their enemies with sheer unadulterated, brute force, heavy duty, withering massive magical devistation. No fooling around with pets, mental trickery, armor, big swords or clubs, skulking in the shadows, just raw brute magical force delivered before the enemy knew what hit him. Thats why people want to be a Wizard. Period. Wizards and their brother Warlocks are basically the same, or should be, execept in the type of spells used. Wizards, never will, never, ever, ever accept that Warlocks can out damage us. Never. Feed us the line about utility and we will gag and choke and get even more upset. However, Wizards, as a whole, understanding that Warlocks are our brother & sister Sorcerers, would be happy to share the top DPS spot with our brothers and we would be happy to push for equal utility. There should be no Nerf of Warlocks. There should be a boost in DPS for Wizards to match Warlocks. There should be a boost in utility for Warlocks to match Wizards. Wizards and Warlocks, should have more to differentiate themselves from each other, more than posion/disease vs fire/ice, thus making us equal in DPS and uitlity but each with its own flavor and playstyle. This part might be the hardest to do. The Sorcerer class, Wizards and Warlocks, should both do the most DPS, over time compared to any other class. More than Assassins, Bruisers, Chanters and Summoners, bakers, plumbers and so on. Why? The other classes get heals, armor, skulking in shadows, pets, mental trickery and on and on. As mages we give up armor, we stand before these creatures wearing, for gods sake a freakin bathrobe ! Every other non mage class has better armor. For that sacfrice we should gain DPS. The two other mage classes have special abilites that help them out. Chanters have all their mental trickery spells, mezzes, stuns etc. The pet folks have their pets. They choose those classes for those abilities. Wizards and Warlocks chose their class for DAMAGE, giving up all these other things. I am not saying that the other classes should not do alot of DPS but Wizards and Warlocks should stand together at the peak of DPS. Well, maybe Wizards should be just a tad higher than Warlocks................. NO JUST JOKING <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Message Edited by Alfgand on 04-01-2005 02:05 PM Message Edited by Alfgand on 04-01-2005 02:08 PMMessage Edited by Alfgand on 04-01-2005 02:10 PM

trysta

04-02-2005, 01:35 PM

<HR> Alfgand wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> Wizards and Warlocks chose their class for DAMAGE, giving up all these other things. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> This is quite possibly the best written post, most comprehensive post, and includes some of the best points and solutions I have seen on fixes to our class (and warlocks). I agree with every single point you raise. Great job! :smileyvery-happy:

TooFarGo

04-02-2005, 01:46 PM

<DIV>I had the honor of grouping with a warlock, level 38, that had a Master I Nil Distortion. Wow. Thats all I can say. Half the time I was wondering why I was even there. I was doing 500-600 with my poor little app4 BoFlames...she was doing 1700-2000 reguarly. I ran out of power very quickly...she stood there and cast every few seconds...Very quick xp in that group. I hope Wizard Masters will do comprable damage some day =).</DIV>

Kaz

04-02-2005, 09:01 PM

<blockquote><hr>slard271 wrote:<div></div>I've said it before and I'll say it again that fighter archetype DPS is still pretty d@mn crazy. They just shouldn't be dishing out that much damage period. There are TONS of raid mobs that are totally unaffected by cold based spells. You can see that just by reading Cogglesworth's Compendium. It's ridiculous to attribute a large portion of wizard DPS to a spell such as Ice Comet and then make all the mobs immune to it! Read the compendium and you'll see phrases like "completely immune to cold based damage and highly resistant to fire." Well yay for us! Can't land debuffs when the vast majority of them are cold based and so can't land much of anything. Talking with a warlock in my guild (who also happens to play a wizard), the Warlock spells seem to have much more benefical effects than the wizard counterparts. I've also asked about resists and it seems that theirs are significantly less due to the disease/poison nature of their attacks. I won't speak for the warlock community, but I tend to think that they are just as religious about DPS as we wizards are. Utility is nice, but it's second to damage output. Period. Warlock DPS isn't the problem. Wizards just need a little more work. rastaoun 50 wiz Ascendance - <a href="http://www.ascendanceguild.com" target="_blank">www.ascendanceguild.com</a> Neriak Server <div></div>Message Edited by slard271 on 04-01-2005 10:56 AM<hr></blockquote>I couldn't agree more, fighter dps is crazy. They are the real raid dps classes atm, and in many fights are coming out ahead of every single other class. <div></div>

Raminicus

04-02-2005, 10:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alfgand wrote: Some people are still not getting it. People choose the Wizard class because they want to blow things up with a big boom. Its that simple. No one in their right mind mind picks Wizard, primarily for the utility. Its nice to have some utility but people picked Wizard because they wanted to destroy their enemies with sheer unadulterated, brute force, heavy duty, withering massive magical devistation. No fooling around with pets, mental trickery, armor, big swords or clubs, skulking in the shadows, just raw brute magical force delivered before the enemy knew what hit him. Thats why people want to be a Wizard. Period. Wizards and their brother Warlocks are basically the same, or should be, execept in the type of spells used. Wizards, never will, never, ever, ever accept that Warlocks can out damage us. Never. Feed us the line about utility and we will gag and choke and get even more upset. However, Wizards, as a whole, understanding that Warlocks are our brother & sister Sorcerers, would be happy to share the top DPS spot with our brothers and we would be happy to push for equal utility. There should be no Nerf of Warlocks. There should be a boost in DPS for Wizards to match Warlocks. There should be a boost in utility for Warlocks to match Wizards. Wizards and Warlocks, should have more to differentiate themselves from each other, more than posion/disease vs fire/ice, thus making us equal in DPS and uitlity but each with its own flavor and playstyle. This part might be the hardest to do. The Sorcerer class, Wizards and Warlocks, should both do the most DPS, over time compared to any other class. More than Assassins, Bruisers, Chanters and Summoners, bakers, plumbers and so on. Why? The other classes get heals, armor, skulking in shadows, pets, mental trickery and on and on. As mages we give up armor, we stand before these creatures wearing, for gods sake a freakin bathrobe ! Every other non mage class has better armor. For that sacfrice we should gain DPS. The two other mage classes have special abilites that help them out. Chanters have all their mental trickery spells, mezzes, stuns etc. The pet folks have their pets. They choose those classes for those abilities. Wizards and Warlocks chose their class for DAMAGE, giving up all these other things. I am not saying that the other classes should not do alot of DPS but Wizards and Warlocks should stand together at the peak of DPS. Well, maybe Wizards should be just a tad higher than Warlocks................. NO JUST JOKING <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Message Edited by Alfgand on 04-01-2005 02:05 PM Message Edited by Alfgand on 04-01-2005 02:08 PM Message Edited by Alfgand on 04-01-2005 02:10 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Ok, I know I'm not going to get a good response for this. But here it goes anyway. At the top you talk about the reasons for people taking Wizards. Well, I'm sorry but this isn't EQLive. The classes are different in this game, and people should not expect a class called the same thing in 2 different games to behave the same way. The people wanting pure physical raw force and no utility should have done their homework better. Now, I DO recognize that there's a problem with the Wizard class, and I do want it to be corrected. But if Wizard gets a bump in DPS and retains all it's other aspects, and no changes are made to other classes, then we're back to square 1. One Sorcerer subclass will vastly out-do another. And I disagree that they should both be the same but for the damage types. I think there should be very distinguishing spell lines. A real difference between Warlocks and Wizards, a reason to go for one or another, a difference in play style. When you boil it down we're both DPS classes, but Warlocks have the upper hand there. Wizards have GREAT buffs and utility spells. Warlocks don't. At all, really. Sorry, but you should have done your homework a bit better. How can you be a mana battery and the top nuker all in one? Plus have evac? Plus those great buffs? Wizard right now seems like a great class to play. Yes, your DPS needs a bit of a boost. But the largest problem I see is that the people who play the class think it should be something it isn't. But, hey. SOE has shown us in a couple games now that nothing is final and things change ALL the time. I hope you guys get some lovin' DPS-wise, but you all need to look at the other great things your class has.

Crono1321

04-03-2005, 01:21 AM

Ramen...you are right. Let me say a few things also. I DO NOT WANT TO GIVE UP MY DPS AS A WARLOCK FOR UTILITY. I PICKED THIS CLASS FOR DAMAGE NOT TO HELP PEOPLE IN A BIND. I have a swashbuckler and I gave up on him because I don't want to do MEDIUM damage with lots of utility. I don't want a ward, I don't want anything but to stay the way I am. Next month when warlocks get their spells nerfed again, I'll come on here and look because not only will wizards still suck they will now have a huge guilt trip hanging over their heads. <div></div>

trysta

04-03-2005, 02:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raminicus wrote: Ok, I know I'm not going to get a good response for this. But here it goes anyway. At the top you talk about the reasons for people taking Wizards. Well, I'm sorry but this isn't EQLive. The classes are different in this game, and people should not expect a class called the same thing in 2 different games to behave the same way. The people wanting pure physical raw force and no utility should have done their homework better. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Quoted directly from <A href="http://www.everquest2.com/" target=_blank>www.everquest2.com</A>: "Wizards are masters of the arcane arts who tap into the elemental powers of fire and ice. Wielding these powerful forces, wizards can inflict startling devastation upon their enemies." Note that nothing is mentioned about being a mana battery. I for one chose this class based on the above information.

Mystild

04-03-2005, 04:49 AM

<DIV>You know what I hate about being a Wizard? I don't get to drain power. Troubadors, Illusionists, Coercers, and WARLOCKS can all drain power. How come someone who masters in disease and poison can drain power? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But anyway, I'm a 50 Wizzy on Lavastorm. I've parsed a 50 Warlock in my guild before, along with myself. Generally, his has been higher than mine, and all of my main nukes are adept 3 and his aren't. I hate how on raids I'm always the pumping [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. That's all I do. Isn't Warlocks' devastation or nil distortion (whichever the level 50 nuke one is).. 2500 dmg dot, AE? That's a crap load of dmg. Ice Comet averages around 2500 on raid mobs even at adept 3, when the spell description says high 2900s to 3657. And this is on ONE mob, not an AE... Sure maybe Wizards' IC is an INSTANT dmg spell, but does it really matter? Warlocks DPS on their level 50 spell destroys ours... Ice comet should be made AE or something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mystildur of the Shard</DIV> <DIV>50 Wizard of Lavastorm</DIV> <DIV>< Cataclysm ></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Crono1321

04-03-2005, 07:33 AM

<blockquote><hr>Mystildur wrote:<div>You know what I hate about being a Wizard? I don't get to drain power. Troubadors, Illusionists, Coercers, and WARLOCKS can all drain power. How come someone who masters in disease and poison can drain power? </div> <div> </div> <div>But anyway, I'm a 50 Wizzy on Lavastorm. I've parsed a 50 Warlock in my guild before, along with myself. Generally, his has been higher than mine, and all of my main nukes are adept 3 and his aren't. I hate how on raids I'm always the pumping [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. That's all I do. Isn't Warlocks' devastation or nil distortion (whichever the level 50 nuke one is).. 2500 dmg dot, AE? That's a crap load of dmg. Ice Comet averages around 2500 on raid mobs even at adept 3, when the spell description says high 2900s to 3657. And this is on ONE mob, not an AE... Sure maybe Wizards' IC is an INSTANT dmg spell, but does it really matter? Warlocks DPS on their level 50 spell destroys ours... Ice comet should be made AE or something.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Mystildur of the Shard</div> <div>50 Wizard of Lavastorm</div> <div>< Cataclysm ></div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote> Warlocks get stuck pumping power to everyone too...we just get less spells for it. Also...Devastation's description says "does not work on epic targets," so I don't think its a raid spell. And your Ice comet does around 3500 normally, whereas if we're in single battle, devastation does ~2500. Face it warlocks get better damage spells, you get more utility. Sure you didn't know that from reading the instruction manual, but who does? The instruction manual doesn't give you your spell lists and everything you need if you want to make an informed, educated decision. Just like a high school project you need to research!!! <div></div>

Mystild

04-03-2005, 08:24 AM

<DIV>Umm... warlocks get two spells that are pumps, same with wizards. Devastation's description is wrong, and has hit on epic targets. I know this because there's a 50 warlock in my guild that has told me it's worked; only the stun doesn't hit, but that's not important because it's not the damage. It's not 2500 damage, it's more than that because its AE so it happens on multiple mobs. ALSO, Warlock spells barely take up any mana because a lot of them have power drains and lifetpas that give the Warlock power and health, which can then be cannibalized. My Ice Comet does NOT do 3500 normally, thats closer to the maximum amount it can do. On raid mobs I'll be lucky to hit for 3000. Averages at about 2500, maybe even less. Only thing that warlocks don't get is a crappy emergency 350 dmg ward and an evac spell. Are you a wizard? Because I seem to know more about what you just said than you do <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> Message Edited by Mystildur on 04-02-2005 08:36 PM

Raminicus

04-03-2005, 08:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> trystaad wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raminicus wrote: Ok, I know I'm not going to get a good response for this. But here it goes anyway. At the top you talk about the reasons for people taking Wizards. Well, I'm sorry but this isn't EQLive. The classes are different in this game, and people should not expect a class called the same thing in 2 different games to behave the same way. The people wanting pure physical raw force and no utility should have done their homework better. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Quoted directly from <A href="http://www.everquest2.com/" target=_blank>www.everquest2.com</A>: "Wizards are masters of the arcane arts who tap into the elemental powers of fire and ice. Wielding these powerful forces, wizards can inflict startling devastation upon their enemies." Note that nothing is mentioned about being a mana battery. I for one chose this class based on the above information. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> It also says nothing about a comparison with other classes. For that sort of role defining information you need to have seen what the Beta Testers said, and believe me they said plenty.

Pants

04-04-2005, 12:06 PM

<div></div><a target="_blank" href="../view_profile?user.id=6482">Raminicus</a>Ok, I know I'm not going to get a good response for this. But here it goes anyway. At the top you talk about the reasons for people taking Wizards. Well, I'm sorry but this isn't EQLive. The classes are different in this game, and people should not expect a class called the same thing in 2 different games to behave the same way. The people wanting pure physical raw force and no utility should have done their homework better.Now, I DO recognize that there's a problem with the Wizard class, and I do want it to be corrected. But if Wizard gets a bump in DPS and retains all it's other aspects, and no changes are made to other classes, then we're back to square 1. One Sorcerer subclass will vastly out-do another.And I disagree that they should both be the same but for the damage types. I think there should be very distinguishing spell lines. A real difference between Warlocks and Wizards, a reason to go for one or another, a difference in play style. When you boil it down we're both DPS classes, but Warlocks have the upper hand there. Wizards have GREAT buffs and utility spells. Warlocks don't. At all, really.Sorry, but you should have done your homework a bit better. How can you be a mana battery and the top nuker all in one? Plus have evac? Plus those great buffs?Wizard right now seems like a great class to play. Yes, your DPS needs a bit of a boost. But the largest problem I see is that the people who play the class think it should be something it isn't.But, hey. SOE has shown us in a couple games now that nothing is final and things change ALL the time. I hope you guys get some lovin' DPS-wise, but you all need to look at the other great things your class has.<hr>Lets try and put the shoe on ther other foot shall we ? How would you feel if they gave you evac but put your damage down and turned your AE spell into single target without putting the damage up ?Or halved your Inquisitor's healing spells effectiveness but gave your melee skills a bump up in the name of defining the classes? I'd say you'd be pretty [Removed for Content] off too.You have HUGE dps as a warlock AND you can feed AND you can power drain AND similar buffs to us but under a different line about the only thing you can validly whinge about is evac, but oh wait, we can't power drain which has more of an effect on grouping and raid situations than evac anyway.<div></div>

Raminicus

04-04-2005, 07:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pantsus wrote: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=6482" target=_blank>Raminicus</A> Ok, I know I'm not going to get a good response for this. But here it goes anyway. At the top you talk about the reasons for people taking Wizards. Well, I'm sorry but this isn't EQLive. The classes are different in this game, and people should not expect a class called the same thing in 2 different games to behave the same way. The people wanting pure physical raw force and no utility should have done their homework better. Now, I DO recognize that there's a problem with the Wizard class, and I do want it to be corrected. But if Wizard gets a bump in DPS and retains all it's other aspects, and no changes are made to other classes, then we're back to square 1. One Sorcerer subclass will vastly out-do another. And I disagree that they should both be the same but for the damage types. I think there should be very distinguishing spell lines. A real difference between Warlocks and Wizards, a reason to go for one or another, a difference in play style. When you boil it down we're both DPS classes, but Warlocks have the upper hand there. Wizards have GREAT buffs and utility spells. Warlocks don't. At all, really. Sorry, but you should have done your homework a bit better. How can you be a mana battery and the top nuker all in one? Plus have evac? Plus those great buffs? Wizard right now seems like a great class to play. Yes, your DPS needs a bit of a boost. But the largest problem I see is that the people who play the class think it should be something it isn't. But, hey. SOE has shown us in a couple games now that nothing is final and things change ALL the time. I hope you guys get some lovin' DPS-wise, but you all need to look at the other great things your class has. <HR> Lets try and put the shoe on ther other foot shall we ? How would you feel if they gave you evac but put your damage down and turned your AE spell into single target without putting the damage up ? Or halved your Inquisitor's healing spells effectiveness but gave your melee skills a bump up in the name of defining the classes? I'd say you'd be pretty [Removed for Content] off too. You have HUGE dps as a warlock AND you can feed AND you can power drain AND similar buffs to us but under a different line about the only thing you can validly whinge about is evac, but oh wait, we can't power drain which has more of an effect on grouping and raid situations than evac anyway. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> You're right, I would be pretty [Removed for Content]. I didn't choose Warlock in order to evac people, I chose it for the AOE damage, and because I knew more mobs had resists to fire and ice than poison and disease (which is something I really really hope they fix for you guys, that's just simply not fair). If a Wizard decides to go full boar DPS and forget about any sort of utility, then yes he/she will drain their power. But in doing so, WOW what a show they'll put on. The damage you guys can do in a very short amount of time is staggering, but it completely drains you. If you want to balance yourself out a bit more, you get to be more of a utility class. And if you have 1 or more off-healers in your group, you're completely set because you can cannibalize. My point was simply that Wizards seem to have a much larger utility role than warlocks but if they want to forget about that, they can go into massive DPS-mode. At a very significant cost, of course. I don't think your class is without bugs or the need for tweaks. But I do think that the overall roles of each Sorcerer class are suitable. If more Wizards had done more research prior to making their main characters, this wouldn't be as large of an issue. Instead, they chose what class they thought would be most powerful based on prior games and a very small amount of information. Once they found out they were wrong, the whining began. Sorry if it comes across as a flame. I'm not directing it at any particular person. Just my honest opinions on the subject. And let me reiterate. I DO want to see the legitimate issues in your class addressed and fixed.

Sokolov

04-04-2005, 07:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mystildur wrote: <DIV>Umm... warlocks get two spells that are pumps, same with wizards. Devastation's description is wrong, and has hit on epic targets. I know this because there's a 50 warlock in my guild that has told me it's worked; only the stun doesn't hit, but that's not important because it's not the damage. It's not 2500 damage, it's more than that because its AE so it happens on multiple mobs. ALSO, Warlock spells barely take up any mana because a lot of them have power drains and lifetpas that give the Warlock power and health, which can then be cannibalized. My Ice Comet does NOT do 3500 normally, thats closer to the maximum amount it can do. On raid mobs I'll be lucky to hit for 3000. Averages at about 2500, maybe even less. Only thing that warlocks don't get is a crappy emergency 350 dmg ward and an evac spell. Are you a wizard? Because I seem to know more about what you just said than you do <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> Message Edited by Mystildur on 04-02-2005 08:36 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> 1 - Warlock power feeds are less effective, level for level, than a wizard's. (Edit: This is as far as I know from asking a wizard for his numbers.) 2 - Not "a lot" of warlock spells have power drains lifetaps, rather it's only a few. At level 39, I have TWO NUKES that Returns Power, ONE of which is also a Lifetap and ONE Group Power Drain that actually costs me more power than I get returned personally (overall, in a group of 2, the power given to both players is roughly equal to what I spend, 3+ players it's a gain) over the next 54 seconds. Message Edited by Sokolov on 04-04-2005 08:33 AM

trysta

04-04-2005, 07:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raminicus wrote: If a Wizard decides to go full boar DPS and forget about any sort of utility, then yes he/she will drain their power. But in doing so, WOW what a show they'll put on. The damage you guys can do in a very short amount of time is staggering, but it completely drains you. If you want to balance yourself out a bit more, you get to be more of a utility class. And if you have 1 or more off-healers in your group, you're completely set because you can cannibalize. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Let's take a look at our "utility." I'm a 38 wizard, and the only "utility" I have is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Depart: 10 yard radius, and from what I've heard, leaves more people behind than actually evacs</DIV> <DIV> Flametongue/Fiery Grandeur: Supposed to add a damage proc, but parsing records show that the effect is minimal at the most</DIV> <DIV> Accord/Concurrence: Supposed to add a power over time buff if you are struck, but only has a 5% chance of triggering</DIV> <DIV> Surge of Flames/Intromission: Transfers power to other players at the cost of our own health or stunning us for a substantial period of time</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We also have 4 group buffs that minimally add to the elemental mitigation and power pools of the party. I could leave them all off and see no difference in the effectiveness of the group. As to our mana-feeding abilities, Warlocks have Strength of Void, Bolster Energy, and a number of their other spells return power to them as well as damages the target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to sacrificing utility for damage... There's NO utility I have in a battle that I should be using instead of doing damage. Same goes for Warlocks. However, when I go all out for damage in a battle, which is the ONLY way to obtain a decent DPS, I end up completely drained. The group has to wait for me, and me alone, to regenerate my power. Warlocks don't face this problem as I see it. And Warlocks are able to out-damage me by far.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Point is, we really don't have that much more utility than Warlocks that compensates for the disparity between our damage-dealing capabilities.</DIV>

Yorc

04-04-2005, 10:34 PM

<blockquote><hr>Raminicus wrote: My point was simply that Wizards seem to have a much larger utility role than warlocks but if they want to forget about that, they can go into massive DPS-mode. At a very significant cost, of course. I don't think your class is without bugs or the need for tweaks. But I do think that the overall roles of each Sorcerer class are suitable. If more Wizards had done more research prior to making their main characters, this wouldn't be as large of an issue. Instead, they chose what class they thought would be most powerful based on prior games and a very small amount of information. Once they found out they were wrong, the whining began. Where exactly in the beta testing, the manual and the web pages was it stated that Wizards would sacrifice DPS for utility? I'm supposed to determine from a spell description that this is the case? I don't think so. I've never been bothered by Warlock DPS being higher in group mobs. With the AOE's (as described in the manual etc.) this makes complete sense. My biggest complaint is our power costs are out of whack and on a single target mob a level 30 warlock can out nuke me at Level 38 even while I'm throwing in the kitchen sink. Sorry if it comes across as a flame. I'm not directing it at any particular person. Just my honest opinions on the subject. And let me reiterate. I DO want to see the legitimate issues in your class addressed and fixed. Yes it seems like it comes across as a flame. Almost a smug one in fact. Sad really I know a lot of great warlocks. You make the class look bad. <hr></blockquote>.<div></div>

illy586

04-04-2005, 11:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pantsus wrote: HH Pantsu 2879:ice comet D***s 16532:168.7 Geeaye 13064:123.7 Pantsu 10188:104.0 F****a 9739:99.4 M********y 2293:23.4 W**d 914:9.3 <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> You only get 104-130dps? thats really low you must have all app1's or something cause at lvl50wiz I tested on a BUNCH of ^^^x4 mob's such as the one's in T'Hean the lost crypt, Isle of refuge orc's for Darathar, and a few other's. And each and everytime I had a Warlock in the group as well and he would get about 200 or so dps and I was in the 260dps range all most's everytime and this is on raid mob's that take a few min's to kill. So I don't no what ur spell's are at but imo it seem's you are lacking dp's not the class.

Alfgand

04-05-2005, 12:29 AM

Remember I said earlier in this post... "Feed us the line about utility and we will gag and choke and get even more upset." The previous posts confirm this fact. lol Wizards are not Wizards for the utility. Wizards are Wizards for the da Booomm! Thats it. Both class descriptions, Wizards and Warlocks, talk about "devistating and devistation" not utility. Not one word about utility. You can talk about utility until it you turn blue in the face due to lack of oxygen but Wizards, especially those with Wizards as mains, care about one thing. Blowing things into little pieces and doing so very fast. Thats it. Yes, its nice we have a few buffs that people certainly could and do live without quite nicely. But we would LOVE to share all our vast and magnificent line of utility spells with Warlocks to get a boost to DPS to equal Warlocks. (Yes, sarcasm detectors may alert on this line.) We do not want to nerf Warlocks or deprive them of utility, we simply cannot and will never tolerate the DPS disparity. Not that we have any direct control over this but expect us to complain loudly and for a long time until its fixed. (Yes, you can refer to it as whining if you wish.) By the way, yes I understand this is not EQ1. (Repeating that line to us is another of those things that will make us "gag and choke and get even more upset.") Equality for Wizards and Warlocks in DPS and utility ! Message Edited by Alfgand on 04-04-2005 01:31 PM Message Edited by Alfgand on 04-04-2005 01:31 PMMessage Edited by Alfgand on 04-04-2005 01:33 PM

Raminicus

04-05-2005, 01:54 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alfgand wrote: Remember I said earlier in this post... "Feed us the line about utility and we will gag and choke and get even more upset." The previous posts confirm this fact. lol Wizards are not Wizards for the utility. Wizards are Wizards for the da Booomm! Thats it. Both class descriptions, Wizards and Warlocks, talk about "devistating and devistation" not utility. Not one word about utility. You can talk about utility until it you turn blue in the face due to lack of oxygen but Wizards, especially those with Wizards as mains, care about one thing. Blowing things into little pieces and doing so very fast. Thats it. Yes, its nice we have a few buffs that people certainly could and do live without quite nicely. But we would LOVE to share all our vast and magnificent line of utility spells with Warlocks to get a boost to DPS to equal Warlocks. (Yes, sarcasm detectors may alert on this line.) We do not want to nerf Warlocks or deprive them of utility, we simply cannot and will never tolerate the DPS disparity. Not that we have any direct control over this but expect us to complain loudly and for a long time until its fixed. (Yes, you can refer to it as whining if you wish.) By the way, yes I understand this is not EQ1. (Repeating that line to us is another of those things that will make us "gag and choke and get even more upset.") Equality for Wizards and Warlocks in DPS and utility ! Message Edited by Alfgand on 04-04-2005 01:31 PM Message Edited by Alfgand on 04-04-2005 01:31 PM Message Edited by Alfgand on 04-04-2005 01:33 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> And then what? You've got 2 identical classes save for the damage type? Where's the individuality? I'm sorry I keep "feeding you" those lines. But maybe people bring it up because it's true! Look, I'm certainly not trying to be smug about this. Yes, I understand that I happen to be on the good end of this one, and so I realize that what I say may look condescending. But it's not meant that way, and if it came across that way I'm sorry. I know what it's like being gimped. Hell, I still log into SWG every once in awhile on my only toon which is a Pistoleer/Smuggler. I don't know any other classes/professions in any game more gimped than that combo. So I understand where you guys are coming from. I just also happen to think that many Wizards who talk about their DPS needing to be equal to that of Warlocks need to look at the bigger picture. Against single mobs, you guys rock. If you drain yourself of mana, you guys rock. If you choose to be more of a utility class (uhoh there it is again!) then you're perfectly able to do that. As a class and not comparing you to anything else, you're VERY balanced and have many uses. Really the only thing you fall short in is DPS and only compared to 1 other class. If Warlocks weren't here, you'd have the highest DPS. So the tradeoff is you get to be a very well-rounded character and only have 1 class out damage you. I seriously fail to see the problem here. One more thing. To a replyer who said that he/she didn't read anything about Wizards being a utility class. I haven't checked so don't know for sure but do ANY of the classes talk about utility? I really don't think they do. They have cool phrases which try to hook people into playing those classes based on a very small amount of information. To really know which class you want to take you need to have done more research. If you're a Wizard and don't like the class, you only have one person to blame. Yourself. Sorry. Not meant to be smug. Just brutal honesty. This is the way I feel, and I know many of you feel completely differently. And that's fine. I'm not saying your arguements are without merit. There are certainly some things which need fixing for Wizards, such as resists to fire/ice. I'm just saying that I think some of you aren't looking at all the information or all the things you can do with your class.

Alfgand

04-05-2005, 02:17 AM

<DIV> <HR> And then what? You've got 2 identical classes save for the damage type? Where's the individuality? <HR> As I posted earlier in this thread... "Wizards and Warlocks, should have more to differentiate themselves from each other, more than posion/disease vs fire/ice, thus making us equal in DPS and uitlity but each with its own flavor and playstyle. This part might be the hardest to do." But I am sure it can be done. My own humble opinion is they couild be differentiated by DD vs DoT and AoE damage. Why not have Wizards be the DD kings and Warlocks be the DoT, AoE kings. Wizards could trail Warlocks in DoT and AoE and Warlocks could trail Wizards in DD (Direct Damage). Let Wizards be the best at single mobs and Warlocks the best at groups. Thats not to say let Wizards be shabby at DoT and AoE or let Warlocks be shabby at DD. I posted this before and met with resistance by some Warlocks. It does not have to be that exact formula. Its just an idea. There are many creative minds at SoE and in the player base that help figure this out. </DIV>

Raminicus

04-05-2005, 03:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alfgand wrote: <DIV> <HR> And then what? You've got 2 identical classes save for the damage type? Where's the individuality? <HR> As I posted earlier in this thread... "Wizards and Warlocks, should have more to differentiate themselves from each other, more than posion/disease vs fire/ice, thus making us equal in DPS and uitlity but each with its own flavor and playstyle. This part might be the hardest to do." But I am sure it can be done. My own humble opinion is they couild be differentiated by DD vs DoT and AoE damage. Why not have Wizards be the DD kings and Warlocks be the DoT, AoE kings. Wizards could trail Warlocks in DoT and AoE and Warlocks could trail Wizards in DD (Direct Damage). Let Wizards be the best at single mobs and Warlocks the best at groups. Thats not to say let Wizards be shabby at DoT and AoE or let Warlocks be shabby at DD. I posted this before and met with resistance by some Warlocks. It does not have to be that exact formula. Its just an idea. There are many creative minds at SoE and in the player base that help figure this out. </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> That sounds great. I'm under the impression, however, that this is the way things already are. I know many of you disagree, but how are you not the kings of Direct Damage? In this scenario, you can't throw Devastation at us as being all-powerful. That's an AoE DoT. According to you, that's what Warlocks would excel at. Wizard's lvl 50 spell is Ice Comet, right? Isn't that a powerful DD nuke? All we have in that category is Nil Distortion from lvl 37. Yes, it does very well, but it's the only one we have for end-game. Honestly if all Wizards wanted were to be DD kings and let Warlocks be AOE/DOT kings, then all you'd ask for is for SOE to lower Mob resists to Ice/Fire and to have your spells not drain as much power. Instead, I see many threads basically asking to nerf Warlocks, or to make another class called Wizlock.