Ok so how would this sound to balance Wizards and Warlocks?

[TheWhiteRaid]

<DIV>Ok so both sides at at each others necks.   Frankly I would like the fighting to stop so here is</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Prop 68</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>(Had to come up with something to call it. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok so here is what I have gathered so far.   Wizards are gripeing about Warlocks having better attacks for most of the levels.  A thread that highlights this is here</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=8880" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=8880</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now at this point I think the issue is with the wizard's nukes and not completely the warlocks.   What I say is to is first reduce the cost of Ball of Flames to make it more in line with Noxious Bolt.    Second is to reduce the cast time on Immolation so it is more in line with Nil Distortion and also to make it so if two wizards are grouped their Immolation stack.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now on the Warlock side of the fence they complain that they don't have a good DD Nuke at level 50 even though they have a nice AoE.   Wizards complain that they have a nice DD, but their AoEs at high levels do not do enough damage for the time and mana used.    The way I suggest to fix this is to change Dark Nebula from an AoE attack to a 2800+ DD because Warlocks already have Devastation.  On the wizards side of the coin their 40+ AoEs need a boost to about 1200+ damage a mob so that way the 5 second cast time is worth it.   Even make it so that the level 49 AoE does close to 2500 a mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That way Wizards would get their AoEs fixed and Warlocks would get their DD they wanted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>Oh and both sides can agree that Tether and P-Fear needs to be fixed. </SPAN></DIV><p>Message Edited by TheWhiteRaider on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:17 AM</span>

[justright]

<P>And then we can call both classes Wizlocks! :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>(sorry just had to, i wouldnt mind a few adjustments to our spells though, good post)</P>

[Splatterpunk28]

<P>All sounds fine to me.</P> <P>But, just so you know, Nil Distortion is the only dmg spell that a level 50 warlock can cast consistently with another warlock in the raid or group.  Everything else has a dot effect or it's not on our hotbar because it's a crappy dmg spell (even our noxious bolt line has "a would not take effect" half the time).  So good luck with getting Immolation to stack, it's an issue for many classes.</P><p>Message Edited by Splatterpunk28 on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:59 AM</span>

[Averni]

<DIV>eh, i really dont mine immolation not stacking(was in a raid last night with 3 wizards and never had the "this will not take effect" on immilation), the dot raps off so quick its not a big deal, and if your picking and choosing yoru battles i would concede this point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now i know its asking like we want the world, but we are suppost to be hands down DPS. Wizards and warlocks that is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As it is right now in raids, most the time i get scouts and brawlers beating me out in total samage pretty easily.</DIV> <DIV>to do the constant nuking we have to do to stay on top we have to nuke constantly, and power is always a problem in raids.</DIV> <DIV>melee classes can still do damage on low/no power..low, ya, bu they have a fall back. we have cannis but it gets to the point that you have to cast/canni cast /canni. and youll end up with power but youll be doing no damage compared to the other melee classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh well, well see what happens.</DIV>

[Crono1321]

Doing this is just making the two characters the same.  Different classes should get different high end spells.  Wizards can kill single target stuff and Warlocks can better kill grouped mobs. <div></div>

[Alfgand]

<DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>We don’t need Wizlocks or Warards. That said lets take a look at our roots.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Both Wizards and Warlocks derive from the Sorcerer class. What defines a Sorcerer? </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Well a Sorcerer is fool, standing in front of a creature with sharp claws, hideous fangs or piercing talons, wearing only a bathrobe and relying only on the application of brute magical force, no fighting pets, mental trickery or steel pots over their heads, to prevent themselves from having their intestines spilled out all over the ground.<SPAN>    </SPAN>Raw magical force….that’s it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Why do we do this?  Well in exchange for giving up the armor, the agility, the pets, the mental trickery, the sneaking around we gain, or are at least supposed to gain, the ability to do massive and I will use SoE’s word, "devastating" damage to an enemy very quickly. Its wham, bang, boom and someone’s dead in a hurry, either the creature or the Wizard/Warlock. None of this trading blows for 5 minutes, clang, bash, crunch, and repeat again and again.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Here is SoE’s descriptions of Wizard and Warlock</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>“Wizards are the masters of the arcane arts who tap into the elemental powers of fire and ice. Wielding these powerful forces, wizards can inflict STARTLING DEVASTATION upon their enemies. (Caps are mine)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>“Warlocks manipulate the destructive forces of poison and disease to obliterate their foes. They are masters of death and decay who deal DEVISTATING DAMAGE and pain to their opponents.” (Caps are mine)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>My point is both classes should be the masters of damage to our enemies, that is what we give everything else up for. However we need to do the same thing differently otherwise there would be no use in having two classes. This difference has to be more than having a high level spell for Wizards called Ice Comet that does X amount of damage and an equal spell for Warlocks called Plague Comet at the same level that does the same X amount of damage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Wizards should do the most damage by the use of single nukes, more than any other class. Warlocks should come in a close but clearly second place.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Warlocks should do the most damage by the use of AoE spells and DoTs, more than any other class. Wizards should come in a close but clearly second place.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>If a Wizard and Warlock of equal level, gear and spell quality were in a group fighting<SPAN>  </SPAN>against one creature the Wizard should have the biggest blasts and out damage the Warlock by a fair amount.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>If a Wizard and Warlock of equal level, gear and spell quality were in a group fighting against a group of creatures the Wizard should still have the biggest blasts but the Warlock should out damage the Wizard by a fair amount.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>This may sound easy but it probably is not the easiest thing to code into the game. Balance has been a problem in EQ for a long time.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>This gives us each our strength, similar yet different.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>There are some in the Warlock community that say Warlocks should out damage Wizards since Wizards have more utility than Warlocks for example Evacs.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Baloney !</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Find me one, one, just one Wizard that picked their class because they wanted to provide utility….</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Most people who play Wizards play them because they want to have the biggest, baddest blasts in the game, PERIOD and they do not care what they have to give up to do this. It’s that simple. We live for the big boom.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>I am very happy the SoE has provided us with more utility than we had in EQ1, its nice to be able to something.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Both Wizards and Warlock should have equal utility to group. Each should be somewhat different than the other.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Warlocks should not be out damaging Wizards of equal level, gear and spell ability on single mob group encounters. That is what is happening now and I am sure in time it will be fixed.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Nor should Wizards out damage Warlocks of equal level, gear and spell ability on multiple mob group encounters.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>What the heck is up with Rangers having an Evac anyhow? </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Anyhow, all classes need to be different and to have their own strengths and weaknesses.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>The Sorcerer line, Wizards and Warlocks give up everything else in favor of damage, fast and furious. Both classes should be wanted in groups when it is important to burn the enemy or enemies in a hurry.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>We don’t need Wizlocks or Warards. We need each to different yet equal in the overall use of raw magical force.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Wizards should never, ever call for the nerfing of our brothers the Warlocks. Warlocks should never complain about Wizards whining.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Someday, as I have seen in EQ1, as SoE tries to do the very difficult job of balancing, the shoe is going to be on the other foot.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>Sage Alfgand Stormraven lvl 66 Wizard EQ1</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Alfgand Stormraven lvl 34 Wizard EQ2</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>100 levels of EQ Wizardry</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P></DIV>

[V4n]

As a warlock, I agree more with the OP, and less with Alfgand.  Where is it written that warlocks should specialize in AoE?  AoE has its place but is rarely used in both groups or in boss-mob raids.  10 mobs at half health do twice the damage as 5/10 mobs completely dead, so it is usually advantageous to kill one at a time.  Aggro control is also simplified. As the OP said, wizards are lacking in AoE relative to warlocks, lets not shift the balance further in that direction.  The stated distinguishing feature between wizards and warlocks is elemental vs poison/disease damage.  In other words, the difference is cosmetic and the effects should be the same. I have no problem balancing based upon that premise.  Please don't [Removed for Content] one class or the other by enforcing some  contrived "uniqueness" criterion.

[Alfgand]

<DIV>Ok, maybe my lack of knowledge of the Warlock subclass has lead me to some misconceptions.  I was under the impression that Warlocks were the best AoE'ers and liked it. Maybe I am wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said I still think there need to to more than Ice Comet vs Posion Comet to differentiate the two subclasses.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Forget the Group vs single mob and AoE issues then what will be the difference? The only other thing I can think of is DoT damage. Perhaps Warlocks should be the masters of DoT damage. There is no reason why Wizards cannot have the best single nukes and Warlocks have the best DoT's as long as all other things being equal the damage done is roughly equal averaged out over a number of battles. Then both would be equally as powerful yet different enough to have to subclasses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not sure what SoE's thoughts and intentions are nor what the rest of the the Wizard or Warlock community think. Just my 2 cents worth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please understand I certainly am not trying to [Removed for Content] one class over another. I think they should both be equally as powerful but yet different in other ways than just having the same spells with different names.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Alfgand on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:58 PM</span>

[Crono1321]

As a warlock I can tell you I have ONE dot that I use.  We do have a few debuffs that are somewhat valuable.  We do pretty decent AE damage (should be more if I'm casting for five seconds!)  Wizards have far more dot's than warlocks do.  And if anyone is the dot master, its the conjuror...they have like 450 DoT spells last time I counted...<span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> <div></div>

[Bup]

I am a lvl 49 Warlock, my AOEs suck.  Yes, Devastation changes it but only once every 45 seconds, the rest still suck.  AOE is not viable in this game like it was in EQ.  It is faster and more efficient for single target nukes.  It is ridiculous that I don't get a single target nuke after 37.

[Splatterpunk28]

<P>Just want to add that the only difference Moorgaard said during beta would be in heat/cold vs poison/disease and the few utility spells we get, otherwise, dps should be the same in any encounter.  Neither would have an advantage in nukes, DoTs, or AoEs.  He said there would be levels where one might be more powerful than the other and it would flip-flop from time to time, but just because of spell upgrades, each tier overall should be the same.  </P> <P>That being said, we are imbalanced and things should be tweaked.  Both classes have broken spells or spells that do not scale from tier to tier as they should.  Maybe once they fix the spells that are obviously messed up, we will find that nothing else needs to happen whatsoever. </P> <P> </P>

[Alfred75]

<span><blockquote><hr>Splatterpunk28 wrote:<p>Just want to add that the only difference Moorgaard said during beta would be in heat/cold vs poison/disease and the few utility spells we get, otherwise, dps should be the same in any encounter.  Neither would have an advantage in nukes, DoTs, or AoEs.  He said there would be levels where one might be more powerful than the other and it would flip-flop from time to time, but just because of spell upgrades, each tier overall should be the same.  </p> <p>That being said, we are imbalanced and things should be tweaked.  Both classes have broken spells or spells that do not scale from tier to tier as they should.  Maybe once they fix the spells that are obviously messed up, we will find that nothing else needs to happen whatsoever. </p> <hr></blockquote></span><span>I can confirm the accuracy of these statements: <font size="2"><u>Just want to add that the only difference Moorgaard said during beta would be in heat/cold vs poison/disease and the few utility spells we get, otherwise, dps should be the same in any encounter. He said there would be levels where one might be more powerful than the other and it would flip-flop from time to time, but just because of spell upgrades, each tier overall should be the same.</u></font> But I have never ever read or heard this anywhere: </span><span><font size="2"><u>Neither would have an advantage in nukes, DoTs, or AoEs. </u></font> </span><div></div>

[Lady Uaelr]

<DIV>They will not fix it  stop asking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They will no balance wiz with warlocks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why does everyone keep asking for balancing?  How can you think it is going to be resolved when the amount of people, posts and information on this board have been talking about this for a few months and no one has done anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is kind of funny to hear that wiz can no go nuke happy on the patch that increased our dps when at higher levels the spells that where increased have no affect on higher level mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LOL......I have all adepts and I can not find piercing icicles or ring of frost== I have had to buy all my adepts because I guess I am so inlucky that none have ever dropped for me or maybe it is because I can not spend 6 hours a day hunting mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways.......this class is a piece of crap.  My suggestion re-roll a warlock and don't waste your time posting here. No one really looks at these boards anyways.</DIV>

[highlighter]

<DIV>I think that is a great idea, and how it should be.  Wizards and warlocks should be able to do the same amount of DPS, being higher or lower depending on what the mob is resistant to i.e. poison, or heat damage.  I feel this would make the classes more different but equal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its hard to stand there with my Warlock friend who's top DD spell can hit for 1000 dmg, while my top DD spell hits for at most 500 dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your only suggestion is to reroll your wizard and play a warlock... Well, thats not a very good suggestion :smileyhappy:.</DIV>

[Splatterpunk28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Alfred75 wrote:</P> <P><SPAN>I can confirm the accuracy of these statements: <FONT size=2><U>Just want to add that the only difference Moorgaard said during beta would be in heat/cold vs poison/disease and the few utility spells we get, otherwise, dps should be the same in any encounter. He said there would be levels where one might be more powerful than the other and it would flip-flop from time to time, but just because of spell upgrades, each tier overall should be the same.</U></FONT><BR><BR>But I have never ever read or heard this anywhere: </SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=2><U>Neither would have an advantage in nukes, DoTs, or AoEs. </U></FONT><BR></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><SPAN class=genmed><STRONG>Quote:</STRONG></SPAN> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=mage&message.id=5345" target=_blank>From Moorgard</A>:<BR><BR>Wizards and warlocks have similar lines of spells in terms of raw power, it's just that the source of their magic is different. So the wizard gets spells based mostly around fire and ice, while the warlock gets mostly disease and poison spells. For a hypothetical example: if a wizard gets a fire nuke for 1000 damage at level X, then a warlock is likely to get a nuke of the same strength based on poison. Both types of sorcerers specialize in all forms of magical damage, including nukes and DoTs. <FONT color=#ff0000>One is not inherently more powerful in one of those categories over the other.</FONT></P> <P>Not everyone is saying they want the classes balanced in nukes, AoE's, DoTs...however, that was the initial intention.  And that's the information people went on when they chose their subclass.  The quote I put up above is exactly the reason I decided to go with warlock, even though the forums were saying how much weaker warlocks were than wizards.  I was under the impression (like the prima guide) that warlocks were DoT masters.  I'm glad I went with what sounded more fun to play.  Even when we were "weaker" I never found it to be dramatic enough that playstyle couldn't make up for it.</P></DIV> <P>And if you think re-rolling a warlock is a good idea, because you are unhappy now, that's pretty sad.  Every single class has some pretty major issues right now.  Oh and have you ever grouped with a conjuror and a necromancer at the same time?  Look at their dps!  It's hardly balanced.  I don't hear them talking about rerolling in every other thread. </P> <P>But, I digress, I think the OP did make good suggestions.</P>

[TheWhiteRaid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lady Uaelrea wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LOL......I have all adepts and I can not find piercing icicles or ring of frost== I have had to buy all my adepts because I guess I am so inlucky that none have ever dropped for me or maybe it is because I can not spend 6 hours a day hunting mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Piercing icicles will drop in the Obelisk of Lost Souls that is where I found it.   Ring of Cold I had to buy, but it is possible.  </P> <P>Just keep checking the broker everytime you are in town and you can find what you need.<BR></P>

[Sokolov]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buppa wrote:<BR> I am a lvl 49 Warlock, my AOEs suck.  Yes, Devastation changes it but only once every 45 seconds, the rest still suck.  AOE is not viable in this game like it was in EQ.  It is faster and more efficient for single target nukes.  It is ridiculous that I don't get a single target nuke after 37.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Um.. have you parsed our AE damage?  I have Adept 3s for nearly all my spells.. I am going to guess you do not have your AE at Adept 3, from the way you talk about them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In any case, as a warlock who loves AE, I'll say this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Barring Nil Distortion, my DPS skyrockets when I am able to use my AEs.  This is the same when I have a wizard in group.  DPS is easily higher by 50 or more DPS even before level 30 simply because we are AEing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No, this doesn't mean I am only AEing.  But if you AE and use your single target nukes as appropriate, you will find that AEs add significant DPS. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Encounter based AEs rock!  They do not break mez, they almost always have secondary effects attached to them, and when used properly, are very powerful spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On utility - as a warlock, I would actually give up some damage for "utility."  I want more power drains.  I want more debuffs(maybe even some low aggro ones!).  I was extremely pleased with the Stun-DoT Aura of Darkness.  How about a Slow-DoT?  Some kind of crippling disease that slows significant amount for a short time period?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the best things I like about my warlock right now is that nearly every spell I cast has secondary effects - most are not as significant as I'd like, but i can at least pretend they matter (even if they don't) and makes the battles a little more interesting.</DIV>

[Sokolov]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Splatterpunk28 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Alfred75 wrote:</P> <P><SPAN>I can confirm the accuracy of these statements: <FONT size=2><U>Just want to add that the only difference Moorgaard said during beta would be in heat/cold vs poison/disease and the few utility spells we get, otherwise, dps should be the same in any encounter. He said there would be levels where one might be more powerful than the other and it would flip-flop from time to time, but just because of spell upgrades, each tier overall should be the same.</U></FONT><BR><BR>But I have never ever read or heard this anywhere: </SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=2><U>Neither would have an advantage in nukes, DoTs, or AoEs. </U></FONT><BR></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><SPAN class=genmed><STRONG>Quote:</STRONG></SPAN> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=mage&message.id=5345" target=_blank>From Moorgard</A>:<BR><BR>Wizards and warlocks have similar lines of spells in terms of raw power, it's just that the source of their magic is different. So the wizard gets spells based mostly around fire and ice, while the warlock gets mostly disease and poison spells. For a hypothetical example: if a wizard gets a fire nuke for 1000 damage at level X, then a warlock is likely to get a nuke of the same strength based on poison. Both types of sorcerers specialize in all forms of magical damage, including nukes and DoTs. <FONT color=#ff0000>One is not inherently more powerful in one of those categories over the other.</FONT></P> <P>Not everyone is saying they want the classes balanced in nukes, AoE's, DoTs...however, that was the initial intention.  And that's the information people went on when they chose their subclass.  The quote I put up above is exactly the reason I decided to go with warlock, even though the forums were saying how much weaker warlocks were than wizards.  I was under the impression (like the prima guide) that warlocks were DoT masters.  I'm glad I went with what sounded more fun to play.  Even when we were "weaker" I never found it to be dramatic enough that playstyle couldn't make up for it.</P></DIV> <P>And if you think re-rolling a warlock is a good idea, because you are unhappy now, that's pretty sad.  Every single class has some pretty major issues right now.  Oh and have you ever grouped with a conjuror and a necromancer at the same time?  Look at their dps!  It's hardly balanced.  I don't hear them talking about rerolling in every other thread. </P> <P>But, I digress, I think the OP did make good suggestions.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think it's an EQ1/Roleplay/Other Games misconception.</P> <P>People read "poison" and "disease" and assumed DoT supremancy because other games, including EQ1, handled those words that way.<BR></P>