Main Nukes Compared Wizard v. Warlock(Power Use Added)

[LordDrag]

<DIV>Ok, at lvl 40, and until 50 or so, both wizards and warlocks rely on a few nukes to do 90%+ of their damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards use Immolation, Ball of Flames, and Westfend's (training upgrade spell to ball of fire)</DIV> <DIV>Warlocks use Nil Distortion, Noxious Bolt, and BSS(also training upgrade)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Immolation v. Nil Distortion  (Damage is close to equal, nil can hit for 1800+ though, never seen immolation do that, and immolation sometimes only hits 3 times instead of 4.  Both spells at 41, Adept 3)</DIV> <DIV>                                   Cast Time              Recast               Damage                Mana</DIV> <DIV>Immolation                        4                          20                   5 sec Dot                 92</DIV> <DIV>Nil Distortion                     2                          18                   Instant                      42(If it hits, if it has a FULL resist, 167)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ball of Flames v. Noxious Bolt (Damage is almost identical, BoF was up about 7%, but I was 3 levels higher, so damage should be pretty much the same at same level)</DIV> <DIV>                                   Cast Time               Recast               Mana</DIV> <DIV>Ball of Flames                  2                            6                      167</DIV> <DIV>Noxious Bolt                     2                            6.5                    85</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Westfend v. BSS  (BSS does a good 30% more straight DD dmg at the same level, not counting DoT) </DIV> <DIV>                                    Cast Time              Recast             Extra                    Dmg                                                                       Mana</DIV> <DIV>Westfend                         3                             13               Nothing                   610(lvl 41 adept 2)                                                 158</DIV> <DIV>BSS                                 2                              9                 Adds a DoT           776avg(lvl 38 adept 2)(Not Counting DoT)             82(If it hits, 130 if FULL resist)</DIV> <P>Ok, does everyone see the problem?  Ball of Flames and Noxious bolt are almost identical, except we get Ball of Flames at 37, they get noxious at 30 I believe.  Ball of flames may have 5% or so damage diff, but I was 3 levels higher. <P>Now the other two.  Nil distortion is clearly superior to Immolation.  Faster cast, faster recast, you get it 2 levels earlier, and its damage is instant, not a 5 second dot that doesn't always go off all 4 times. <P>Westfends is clearly inferior to BSS.  A lot less damage, slower cast, longer recast, no DoT added. <P>So, now you see why we are falling behind in dps.  Of the 3, 1 is about equal, and 2 of them are far superior for warlocks.  These nukes do 90% of the damage or so in most fighting.  They are the 3 that every wizard and warlock of this level use almost exclusively.  Hopefully sony can bring some damage parity in to play. <P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>UPDATE - MANA</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Wow, I had no idea we were getting so screwed on mana too.  All of their spells cost a lot less.  Only nil distortion takes more mana than immolation, and only if it is fully resisted.  If not it costs less than half as much.  This is getting ridiculous</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by LordDragon on <SPAN class=date_text>03-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:45 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by LordDragon on <span class=date_text>03-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:47 PM</span>

[killzo]

<DIV>It's like they had two different people working on the spells or something.  You would think they would have someone that works on both classes, since they are rather similar.</DIV>

[Fendaria]

Might be asking a bit much but can we get the mana costs listed for the spells too?Thanks,Fendaria

[LordDrag]

<DIV>I will see what I can do about mana costs.  Warlock spells often have a mana return percentage, so its hard to get their exact cost.</DIV>

[Admh]

<DIV>bah they're both fine.. Just fix wizard's Cold spells and get ur spells to adp3 or better and everything will be back to normal.</DIV>

[LordDrag]

<DIV>Uh, all the spells taken there WERE adept 3, on both sides.  Except for the training spells of course.</DIV>

[Admh]

<DIV>1st of all, are u lvl 50? Are u an avid raider? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm soo wishing that they nerf Ice Comet back to it's original damage/delay ratio. Seriously, all i ask is for them to fix our ice spells.. or fix the mobs resistance to Ice. ALL your fire spells will land @ full damage in Lavastorm/Sol Eye, but your Cold spells may or may not land on certain mobs.. sometimes.. I see Ice comet hitting for a mere 87dmg on a lvl 49 ^^^ <--- a mob that is Blue to me.. oh wow!.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's better to focus on fixing ourselves 1st before worrying about how much another class does more damage than you... Would you rather have warlocks nerfed or wizards getting fixed?:smileytongue:</DIV>

[LordDrag]

If you have a problem with ice comet, go post about it in the ice comet page, lots of. This is about disparity between classes that are supposed to do the same DPS. Hopefully it will be an indication that our spells need boosting. Please don't hijack the thread.

[Admh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordDragon wrote:<BR>If you have a problem with ice comet, go post about it in the ice comet page, lots of. This is about disparity between classes that are supposed to do the same DPS. Hopefully it will be an indication that our spells need boosting. Please don't hijack the thread.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=7761" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=7761</A></DIV>

[Magu]

im sure some dev out there is saying to himself "damnit the wizards are talking numbers again"

[Darien al'Staff]

Woah guys...I think you're blowing this way out of proportion.Just lower the mana costs a bit and upt he damage a little bit. This is NOT a life-altering problem. I agree, it's a pain in the butt to be outdamaged by warlocks my level or lower (though, I do my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]-best to give them a hard time...and usually do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) but hey. Give the devs a break. They'll get to us.

[Fendaria]

Thanks for adding the mana costs too. I think this sums up the argument well.Pretty much all this thread needs now is someone saying '<em>but Wizards get evac!</em>'.Fendaria

[Cecil_Stri]

I think things will get resolved.. it just takes time...  wasn't even a month ago where we were almost at the bottom of the dps pool.  Just gotta wait while they establish a course of action

[Splatterpunk28]

<DIV>STOP COMPARING NIL DISTRORTION to IMMOLATION...they are not comparable in ANY FASHION and were never intended to!  When you get that through your head you might realize how much easier the solution is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wiz Level 23:  Ball of Fire</DIV> <DIV>War Level 23:  Dark Distortion</DIV> <DIV>Wiz Level 30:  WIS</DIV> <DIV>War Level 30:  BSS</DIV> <DIV>Wiz Level 37:  Ball of Flames</DIV> <DIV>War Level 37:  Nil Distortion</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are all on the same lines, all cost the same power, all are nukes...DUH!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's a thread that is actually constructive:</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=8975" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=8975</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if you want to see power comparisons, it's on eq2forums in the respective class pages:</DIV> <DIV>Warlock:  <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/classes/index.vm?classId=24" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/classes/index.vm?classId=24</A></DIV> <DIV>Wizard:  <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/classes/index.vm?classId=23" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/classes/index.vm?classId=23</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your entire arguement is null and void because of the way you are comparing spells, it's illogical.</DIV>

[LordDrag]

<DIV>The mana costs on those eq2players pages are hideously incorrect.  The mana costs I gave were taken from in game.</DIV> <DIV>As for your comparisons, I did compare Westfends and BSS as you suggested.  BSS was far superior.  Those are the training upgrades to Ball of Fire and Dark Distortion, only difference being the element they nuke in and the dot BSS adds.  Damage and power figures are the same(given level scaling).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I compared Ball of Flames and Noxious Bolt because they are virtually identical, and used in the same role.  Same thing with nil distortion and immolation.  Direct level comparisons don't always work because classes don't always get equivalent spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Talking to many wizards and warlocks, these 3 spells on each side are the ones EVERYONE uses to do virtually all their damage, often not using anything else, other than a debuff dot.  So it makes sense to compare them to together.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nothing you said in any way refutes the fact that the warlock spells are superior.  Noxious bolt is roughly equal to Ball of Flames, but you get Ball of Flames 7 levels later.</DIV> <DIV>BSS is FAR superior to Westfends in every possible way, mana, cast time, recast, damage.</DIV> <DIV>Nil Distortion is Superior to Immolation as well, faster cast, faster recast, instant damage, same total damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is a given that warlocks do more damage right now by a wide margin.  Every parse I have done confirms it, every wizard and warlock in game admits to it.  I was attempting to show why they do, using the spells that everyone uses for damage, and why they are so different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  You said "all cost the same power".  What are you kidding?  Did you even read what I wrote?  Power costs are nowhere close.  That ancient eq2players data is not accurate at all.  Compare it to what your spells actually cost in game, you will see how wrong it is.  Its not even in the right ball park.  I got these figures from myself and others in game, all from training(adept 2) or adept 3 spells at the same player level.</DIV><p>Message Edited by LordDragon on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:15 AM</span>

[Kaj]

I currently play a level 35 Warlock and I completely agree with you guys. I don't want my class to get nerfed of course, who would? Seriously, your nukes needed the same kind of adjustment ours recieved. I'd love to see the wizards my level doing the same kind of crazy damage with BoF and BoFl that I'm getting with Dark Distrions and will get with Nil Distortions. The biggest difference between our two classes should be the fact that my nukes are poison/disease based, and yours are fire/cold based. If we fight something that is equally resistant to both, we should be doing the same kind of damage.Sony needs to re-evaluate Wizards.

[Splatterpunk28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordDragon wrote:<BR> <DIV>The mana costs on those eq2players pages are hideously incorrect.  The mana costs I gave were taken from in game.</DIV> <DIV>As for your comparisons, I did compare Westfends and BSS as you suggested.  BSS was far superior.  Those are the training upgrades to Ball of Fire and Dark Distortion, only difference being the element they nuke in and the dot BSS adds.  Damage and power figures are the same(given level scaling).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I compared Ball of Flames and Noxious Bolt because they are virtually identical, and used in the same role.  Same thing with nil distortion and immolation.  Direct level comparisons don't always work because classes don't always get equivalent spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Talking to many wizards and warlocks, these 3 spells on each side are the ones EVERYONE uses to do virtually all their damage, often not using anything else, other than a debuff dot.  So it makes sense to compare them to together.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nothing you said in any way refutes the fact that the warlock spells are superior.  Noxious bolt is roughly equal to Ball of Flames, but you get Ball of Flames 7 levels later.</DIV> <DIV>BSS is FAR superior to Westfends in every possible way, mana, cast time, recast, damage.</DIV> <DIV>Nil Distortion is Superior to Immolation as well, faster cast, faster recast, instant damage, same total damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is a given that warlocks do more damage right now by a wide margin.  Every parse I have done confirms it, every wizard and warlock in game admits to it.  I was attempting to show why they do, using the spells that everyone uses for damage, and why they are so different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  You said "all cost the same power".  What are you kidding?  Did you even read what I wrote?  Power costs are nowhere close.  That ancient eq2players data is not accurate at all.  Compare it to what your spells actually cost in game, you will see how wrong it is.  Its not even in the right ball park.  I got these figures from myself and others in game, all from training(adept 2) or adept 3 spells at the same player level.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by LordDragon on <SPAN class=date_text>03-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:15 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes the power costs on those links are old apprentice 1 costs.  But the point I was making is that they are exactly the same power costs -- Ball of Fire vs Dark Distortion, same.  Ball of Flames vs Nil Distortion, same.  You acquire both lines on the same levels, and they are all nukes.  They have changed things since Dec 28, when that list was put together, and the Distortion line power cost that is showed, reflects the cost before it hits.  One of the effects is getting roughly 30% of your power back.  That is a part of the imbalance, what do wizards get instead?  Not increased damage, that's for sure.  </P> <P>And of course I read what you wrote up and I think it's all BS because the way you are comparing these spells.  It is so in your face obvious which spell lines are supposed to be compared and you are just basing your comparisons on what the different classes are using right now for main damage as your reasoning which makes NO SENSE.  Especially when you are saying spells are messed up?  LOL!  If you read the other thread I linked you will see that I agree the DIstortion line is superior and I made suggestions.</P> <P>The Ball of Fire series and the plasmatic pulse series are the spells that need to be tweaked to compare to Distortion and Noxious bolt lines, not whatever it is that you are trying to say.  Just read the spell description, "plasmatic pulse...Deals instant Heat damage to an enemy. Also has a chance to do additional Magic over-time damage" vs "noxious bolt...Deals instant Poison damage to an enemy with the chance of doing additional instant Magic damage."  In addition to this these two spells have the identical spell icon in game.  You seriously still believe your comparisons make sense?  I play both a warlock and a wizard, do you think I don't care that things are addressed or that I have no idea of what I'm saying?  Jeez...get over yourself.          </P> <P>What is your suggestion, anyway?  Make Immolation a nuke as well so wizards can have an additional nuke?  We have a DoT that's a couple of levels of your Immolation and the damage comparison is a joke, immolation is far superior and both are 4second casts.  </P> <P>Anyway, I hope things are looked into because I agree, warlock line-up is superior in terms of dmg/mana/sec at the moment.</P><p>Message Edited by Splatterpunk28 on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:36 PM</span>

[LordDrag]

<DIV>I am not advocating these specific spells be tweaked to be equal.  The point of the post was to show that the primary damage spells that the classes use are superior for the warlocks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There have been enough posts showing that ball of flames needs a mana cost adjust, no argument.  The point was to show that the warlock primary spells are flat out superior in damage and cast/recast.  Particularly BSS vs. Westfend.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, as for the immolation v. nil distortion post you told me to read, maybe you should look at the person who wrote the post<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to write up a direct comparison between the spells you want to, do so.  I might eventually, but rather busy atm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. I specifically mentioned that the warlock spells damage depending on whether it hits or resists, its in the data.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by LordDragon on <SPAN class=date_text>03-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:17 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by LordDragon on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:45 PM</span>

[Splatterpunk28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordDragon wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am not advocating these specific spells be tweaked to be equal.  The point of the post was to show that the primary damage spells that the classes use are superior for the wizards.<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>So all that comparing you are doing shouldn't be this spell vs that spell, it should be random primary damage spells of wizards vs warlocks?!  So another unconstructive, illogical, manipulative whinefest from LordDragon?  Jeez, shoulda known.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ROFL!  Seriously, I'm done.  Just when I thought you were on medication that reduced concentration, I realize that you just like to argue with people, including yourself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm done posting on these forums, tired of getting rated lowly (by folks like LordDragon).  Best of luck to ya all!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Splatterpunk28 on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:39 PM</span>

[LordDrag]

<P>Actually I have never rated you period.  I always thought the whole star rating thing was kind of stupid.</P> <P>And I am not comparing random spells, sigh.  These are the 3 that are used 95% of the time.  So when the warlock versions are so clearly superior it shows the problem.</P> <P>The fact is, there is no way on paper to represent a 100% accurate view of dps and damage between classes unless you calculate optimum spell damage spell cycles and then show how much damage per mana the classes do over a given period of time.  And this is problematic because people will disagree about what spells to use, and there are places to use other spells for more damage at sucky mana returns.  I could do all of that, but its too much work.  Besides, most people wouldn't read past the first paragraph.</P> <P>You can't simply compare a spell at a given level against its equivalent, because this is not eq1.  We don't cast just one spell over and over again like eq1 wizards did most of the time.</P> <P>So I attempted to compare the spells that are used 39-49, with their closest functional equivalent.  Noxious bolt was compared to ball of flames because of virtually identical cast, recast, and damage.  BSS and Westfends for obvious reasons(same level in that case) and immolation and nil distortion because they are the long recast big hitters that both classes get within a couple levels of each other.</P> <DIV> </DIV>

[Flachett]

I think they should up the damage on all the spells lines they previously havent. Increase wizards nukes but keep power usage high in comparsion with a locks but do a little more damage. Why just do a couple damage increases to wizs or just reduce power costs then we will be playing essentially the same classes with "fluff" differences. Increase plasmatic pulse lines also increase warlocks suffocating breath line or our dots. IMO both classes still dont do enough damage we have very little utiility aside from power buffs and out of combat regen  (warlocks) and mana feeds and evac (wizards). Im getting a little bored with the class to be honest its basically the same repetition of spells every encounter with a little variation only when adds come or something weird happens, maybe it changes later on im still level 36 but ill know soon enough. Id like it if we both had extremly high "potential" damage since we all know very well if you over nuke its your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], make us think a little more....... <DIV> or maybe i should roll an illusionist</DIV>

[Trith]

<DIV>I find it so funny how theres a couple of Warlox here who keep saying</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"dont compare this spell to that, theyre not the same..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about nil distortion..its not that powerful..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"warlocks dont do that much damage...."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dude, if you are here trying to downplay your class to avoid a nerf...its probably not going to work, instead it makes you look like a lil guy who will say anything to avoid the nerf-stick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ya, we can compare Immolation to Nil because its our most comparable damaging spell.  Do you really want to compare it to Ball of Flames?</DIV> <DIV>Ok, Nil Distortion...hits up to 2000ish  (adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>       Ball of Flames...hits max 948       (adept 3)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is that comparison more adequate?  I think not.  I think we should compare it to Immolation...how about you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And dont get me wrong, im not here crying about wizards or warlox in general, I dont care about the dmg difference or anything, im just poiniting the finger at a certain warlock who is making his class look bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>Vladek</DIV> <DIV>49 Wizard</DIV> <DIV>Sinister Circle</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV>

[Dae]

Points... - Ball of Fire should be balanced against Dark Distortion (it's clearly not). - WIS should be balanced against BSS (it's clearly not). - The base resist rate, power costs and recast times of Wizard spells need be balanced vs. the base resist rate, power costs, power returns and recast times of Warlock spells. Not that power costs are really an issue unless you're fighting an epic mob anyway... None of this would be particularly hard to do. Your problem isn't with Warlocks it's with Sony not giving Wizards the same treatment that they gave to us. One other thing. Don't ever use the word "Warlox" ever again. Seriously. Not ever. Words can't describe how stupid that word is. If you're too lazy to type 2 more goddamned letters then just don't type at all. <div></div>

[Splatterpunk28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trithon wrote:<BR> <DIV>I find it so funny how theres a couple of Warlox here who keep saying</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"dont compare this spell to that, theyre not the same..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about nil distortion..its not that powerful..."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"warlocks dont do that much damage...."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dude, if you are here trying to downplay your class to avoid a nerf...its probably not going to work, instead it makes you look like a lil guy who will say anything to avoid the nerf-stick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ya, we can compare Immolation to Nil because its our most comparable damaging spell.  Do you really want to compare it to Ball of Flames?</DIV> <DIV>Ok, Nil Distortion...hits up to 2000ish  (adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>       Ball of Flames...hits max 948       (adept 3)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is that comparison more adequate?  I think not.  I think we should compare it to Immolation...how about you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And dont get me wrong, im not here crying about wizards or warlox in general, I dont care about the dmg difference or anything, im just poiniting the finger at a certain warlock who is making his class look bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I've said in more than one thread that they need to fix wizards, and I said which spells should compare, but do not in terms of efficacy.  What the guy posted directly above me, is exactly what I have said in this thread, in other threads...yet I'm trying to downplay my class?  I beat the crap out of wizards in dps and I always have, pre-patch, post-patch, solo, group or raids...the gap has only widened.  But, then, my wizard has never been out dps'd by a warlock either (he isn't level 37yet though, so...)  </P> <P>You will see two different type of posts from me on these forums:  one is asking for parsed data to see why things are as people claim (only from peeps higher level than me that I can't verify on my own) or two is making suggestions from observations to balance the classes.  People should keep in mind that players have different playstyles.  I, personally, like to push my dps to the max on every encounter while maintaining non-aggro.  So when I see people making wild claims I want to see how that happened in detail.  I was in a group with a 39wizard a few days ago and his dps on average was about 65.  65?!  Mine was 190!  The only person that wasn't out dps'ing him was the healer.  Why?  He was using 3 spells, consistently and ONLY 3 spells, BotT, BoFl and WIS.  Another sorceror that only nukes and does so cautiously, woohoo.  </P> <P>No, I don't want my class to be nerfed (but if you read test notes you'd see that we are about to be), but if that's going to keep the two sorceror classes balanced and still make us viable in the bigger picture, then I'm all for it.  What I do want is for wizards to stop comparing spells that were never meant to be compared.  IF you want to compare Immolation and Nil Distortion...go right ahead.  If they tweak immolation instead of your ball of fire/flame,plasmatic line, then you have done your own class a disservice because you will still be inferior to warlocks.  But, then maybe because we don't have a comparable spell to immolation, immolation is supposed to be the compensation for the warlocks' other spells being slightly superior.  </P> <P>So go right ahead.    </P><p>Message Edited by Splatterpunk28 on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:40 AM</span>

[Raminicus]

<P>I personally look at it a bit differently.</P> <P>I'm a lvl 32 Warlock.  The following is not fact but only what I assumed about the two classes since launch.  I am in no way stating that this is the case currently or ever.</P> <P>I see Wizards as being superior with AOEs (amazing if used properly, they're NOT useless like some ppl think) and DoTs, and having heavier but fewer direct dmg nukes.</P> <P>I see Warlocks as having good nukes, amazing group buffs and better Power management.</P> <P>Based on those very simple ideas it's difficult to compare spells 1v1 between Wizard/Warlock.  They're both Sorcerer subclasses, but they do slightly different things while ultimately accomplishing the same goal.</P> <P>I know many of you don't see it this way and it's fine, I could very well be way off base, but I think that there's alot've complaining on these boards without the big picture in mind.</P> <P>Thanks for listening.</P> <P> </P>

[LordDrag]

<DIV>Ram, warlocks have the better AEs, especially at higher levels.  And considering warlocks ultimate spell is an AE and wizards is a single target DD, it seems that the specialties would be DD for wizard and AE for warlock, not the reverse.</DIV>

[Trith]

<P>Wormwood...I have one word for you.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#00cc33 size=6>WARLOX</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc33 size=6></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>What did you think I was going to say to that?</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>Vladek 49 Wizard</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>Oh, im not going to get into your childish debates on your comparisons and your altered visions of what things are, I just had to say Warlox warlox warlox warlox for this hilarious character named wormwood......just couldnt resist such a tight azz like that.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc33 size=6></FONT> </P>

[TheWhiteRaid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raminicus wrote:<BR> <P>I see Wizards as being superior with AOEs (amazing if used properly, they're NOT useless like some ppl think) and DoTs, and having heavier but fewer direct dmg nukes.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No Wizard AoEs are worthless.  Warlocks may still have some good ones,  but Wizard AoEs are broken.  4 seconds with 12 second recast for 150 damage a mob is not worth it when I can do more for less.</DIV>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordDragon wrote:<BR> <DIV>The mana costs on those eq2players pages are hideously incorrect.  The mana costs I gave were taken from in game.</DIV> <DIV>As for your comparisons, I did compare Westfends and BSS as you suggested.  BSS was far superior.  Those are the training upgrades to Ball of Fire and Dark Distortion, only difference being the element they nuke in and the dot BSS adds.  Damage and power figures are the same(given level scaling).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I compared Ball of Flames and Noxious Bolt because they are virtually identical, and used in the same role.  Same thing with nil distortion and immolation.  Direct level comparisons don't always work because classes don't always get equivalent spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Talking to many wizards and warlocks, these 3 spells on each side are the ones EVERYONE uses to do virtually all their damage, often not using anything else, other than a debuff dot.  So it makes sense to compare them to together.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nothing you said in any way refutes the fact that the warlock spells are superior.  Noxious bolt is roughly equal to Ball of Flames, but you get Ball of Flames 7 levels later.</DIV> <DIV>BSS is FAR superior to Westfends in every possible way, mana, cast time, recast, damage.</DIV> <DIV>Nil Distortion is Superior to Immolation as well, faster cast, faster recast, instant damage, same total damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is a given that warlocks do more damage right now by a wide margin.  Every parse I have done confirms it, every wizard and warlock in game admits to it.  I was attempting to show why they do, using the spells that everyone uses for damage, and why they are so different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  You said "all cost the same power".  What are you kidding?  Did you even read what I wrote?  Power costs are nowhere close.  That ancient eq2players data is not accurate at all.  Compare it to what your spells actually cost in game, you will see how wrong it is.  Its not even in the right ball park.  I got these figures from myself and others in game, all from training(adept 2) or adept 3 spells at the same player level.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by LordDragon on <SPAN class=date_text>03-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:15 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Warlocks and Wizards ARE different.....!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>You cannot take their spell lines out of context when compairing their abilities and worth.  Yes Warlocks have a slight DPS advantage over Wizards, but you do get the single biggest more powerful spell in the game.... your a Wizards and you get ICE COMET.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>If you want to compair nukes, compair Ice Comet to Warlocks last Nuke; Nil Distortion... or did you convienantly leave that out.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>23, 30 & 37 we get equivilant spells...   but you have to look deeper into secondary abilities and spells.  your Dots are way more powerful as we have AE's.... etc</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>AT level 50 Warlocks are an AE class.  Your conpairison of spells is a JOKE.  Nox Bolt is a lvl 30 DD, but we don't get Prismatic Pulse or Icy Coil style of spells.... we get utility spells.  Look HARDER at the spell lists, plz.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Wizard get more dmg spells than Warlocks... we get more utility.   That aside, I would like to see Wizards spells HIt harder than they do... but on a longer timer. I too play a Wizard and I like the idea of BIG nukes that take some time to cast., and perhaps a Big Root aswell. But to go on about how warlocks are better and compairing wrong spells is foolish and dumb. Read the spell list over a few times and you start to see the class roles.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Erowid on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:42 PM</span>

[Trith]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Warlox again for wormwood.</FONT></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Trithon on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:45 PM</span>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trithon wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><EM>If you want to compair nukes, compair Ice Comet to Warlocks lst Nuke Nil Distortion... or did you convienantly leave that out.</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><EM>Ya we conveniently left that out.....only that we were comparing BoF ot Nil......but if you insist...........ya well compare Nil to IC, so then what do we compare Devestation to?    Oh ya......just forgot about Devistation we did!</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><EM>Stop freeking downplaying warlox to wizards, you know you do more damage and who cares, your a warlock and Im a wizard.  We are NOT the same class and who FREEKING CARES about this crap...........</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><EM>Who EVER said wizards were supposed to be the highest dmg class??  </EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><EM>Oh, btw, this is the wizard board, not warlock...its intended for wizards to post about wizards and such..not play in stupid class warz.</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>all </FONT></DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>We are talking about Nukes... DEVESTATION is an Area Effect spell (AOE) .....!!!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>BTW... it was a <STRONG>Wizard</STRONG> who started the topic " <EM>Main Nukes Compared Wizard v. Warlock(Power Use Added</EM>) "</FONT> </P> <P><BR></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Erowid on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:47 PM</span>

[Trith]

<P>Erowind   Ok, so then what do you compare Devistation to then if you refuse to compare it to Ice Comet or any single target dd?</P> <P> </P> <P>Comeon, give this one a good shot, we are all gonna watch you crash and burn on it......why dont you compare all of our ae's against your ae's....have more fun with that one too.</P> <P> </P> <P>Vladek</P>

[Erow]

<FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Well. AE's are situational, where as Nukes are staple spells of any Nukeing class.  Please familiarize yourself with the ENTIRE Warlock spell list, then do the same for the Wizards. We have way more AE Dots and AE Nukes, your dots (save a couple) are all single target.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>I do wish your lvl 30 (ability) spell hit's harder.  To me, Wizards spell take longer to cast, but hit harder and use more power.  But not all of them, just your class definning Nukes... Ball of Fire, Ball of Flames & Immolation.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>BTW you ever look at Fiery Pulse ..??</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>We get 15 non-damaging spells from lvl 40-50....  15 !!   All impairing or augmenting, you get Single dots, AE dots.. etc  Anything thats needed in battle you can dish out...!   We get one Main Nuke and have to live by it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Erowid on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:02 PM</span>

[LordDrag]

<DIV>"we don't get Prismatic Pulse or Icy Coil style of spells"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LOL.  Ok, first of all it is plasmatic pulse, not prismatic.  And it is the most worthless spell around.  It does maybe 200 damage at lvl 42, adept 3.  (Don't ask why I bothered making it an adept 3, heh)  Oh yeah, that is going to get used.  Its not even on my spell bar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, you DO get the same thing as the Icy Coil line.  You get Steal Breath at the same level we get Icy Coil.  They both do damage and reduce the resists of the target, ice and fire for us, disease and poison for you.  They even have the same cast and recast time. What on earth are you talking about saying you don't get the icy coil type spells?  do you even play a warlock or did you just never notice you had that spell line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>"To me, Wizards spell take longer to cast, but hit harder and use more power"</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Ah, ball of fire/westfends takes longer to cast, costs more mana, and hits for LESS than Dark Distortion.  Nil distortion casts faster and hits for the same as Immolation, but costs less damage and doesn't take 5 seconds to do its non-stackable damage.</FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>Right now, Warlocks can do more damage in less time for less mana than wizards.  Yeah, that is balance, lol.</FONT></P> <DIV><BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by LordDragon on <SPAN class=date_text>03-18-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:10 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by LordDragon on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:10 PM</span>

[Trith]

<P>That was an awsome tapdance.....I am still waiting on a comparison of Devistation.......and come on, please dont try to discount that spell.  I mean its not really THAT good is it?  It ONLY hits for about 2500 per target in a couple of seconds up to 5 targets at a time......only 7500.....its really not that much right?</P> <P> </P> <P>Plus, our dots....ya the 5 second cast dot, heat stroke that does about 45dmg a tick.......thats a real killer.</P> <P>Oh, well Piercing Icicles is pretty nice now that im Adept 3, its about 300dmg and then a few ticks of 97.  That is nice i must say.</P> <P>Incinerate...well we both have that, unless you want to say that we cant compare that one either...</P> <P>What are you saying about Fiery Pulse?  I am guessing you have no clue, but fiery pulse is an exact duplicate of Inferno which is on the bug list......exact duplicate....  plus not to mention its probably the least used spell.....5sec cast time...280pwr cost....for a whopping 232dmg at adept1....OMG run group mobs run......plus the 15sec recast....</P> <P> </P> <P>Just stop comparing this crap....its a neverending childs game.   Though I would still love to hear your Devistation comparison  =)</P> <P>Vladek</P>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>You cannot take their spell lines out of context when compairing their abilities and worth.  Yes Warlocks have a slight DPS advantage over Wizards, but you do get the single biggest more powerful spell in the game.... your a Wizards and you get ICE COMET.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>If you want to compair nukes, compair Ice Comet to Warlocks last Nuke; Nil Distortion... or did you convienantly leave that out.</FONT></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You really wanna compare ice comet to nil distrotion? ok let's see:<BR>Ice comet (level 50): 3600 max damage, 3+45=48sec cast/recast time, dps=75<BR>Nil distrotion (level 37): 1800 max damage, 2+18=20sec cast recast time, dps=90<BR>Warlocks only have a "slight" DPS advantaget? Ice comet is the more powerful?<BR> <BR>Ok, now what to compare to your Devastation? and your 3 different-timer Absolution spells?</DIV>

[TheWhiteRaid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT></DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>We get 15 non-damaging spells from lvl 40-50....  15 !!   All impairing or augmenting, you get Single dots, AE dots.. etc  Anything thats needed in battle you can dish out...!   We get one Main Nuke and have to live by it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>And we only get one main nuke that is worth while to use from 39-50.   The only other damaging attacks we get are AoEs which wizard AoEs are gimped right now.</DIV>

[TheWhiteRaid]

<DIV>One star bandit struck again.</DIV>

[Crono1321]

<div></div>I play a wizard and a warlock and I have something to add... Icy coil is not the same thing as steal breath.  Steal breath is basically an upgrade to Freezing Whorl.  It has a DoT with poison/disease debuff.  Ours doesn't do a DD up front/debuff/dot.  We dont' really get one of those. Noxious Bolt is not the equivalent to anything...its the next DD for warlock, upgrade to Ice Spike/Blaze/whatever...call it the equivalent to icy coil without a dot/debuff.  Adept 1 does around 200-400dmg for me at lvl 32 depending on if I debuff/etc (you know how random it is).  Don't compare Nil Distortion to Ice Comet either...because Warlock gets an AE at 50 and you get a single target DD!  You can use ice comet whenever you want for 3500 damage (confirmed by a 50 wizard) in any situation....a warlock isn't about to cast devastation on a solo mob.  If you were to line it up like that it would be.... Wizard: BOFL, WIS, IcyCoil, Immo. , Icy Comet Warlock: ND, BSS, NB...uh thats it. Wizard needs to be bumped up on their spells yes....but to make every spell do the same damage is pointless to having two classes.  Your WIS and BOFL can do less since you have immolation and icy coil [and lvl 43 update/whatever].  Wizards have faster recast timers on BOFL...it if did 1800dmg in one shot like ND does (at adept3 not 1 whoever was an idiot and said that.), then warlock would need a speed boost to keep up with wizard BOFL...do you see the cycle?  Why don't we all go make berserkers and be happy? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Crono1321 on <span class=date_text>03-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:46 PM</span>

[QQ-Fatman]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR> I play a wizard and a warlock and I have something to add...<BR><BR>Icy coil is not the same thing as steal breath.  Steal breath is basically an upgrade to Freezing Whorl.  It has a DoT with poison/disease debuff.  Ours doesn't do a DD up front/debuff/dot.  We dont' really get one of those.<BR><BR>Noxious Bolt is not the equivalent to anything...its the next DD for warlock, upgrade to Ice Spike/Blaze/whatever...call it the equivalent to icy coil without a dot/debuff.  Adept 1 does around 200-400dmg for me at lvl 32 depending on if I debuff/etc (you know how random it is).  <BR><BR>Don't compare Nil Distortion to Ice Comet either...because Warlock gets an AE at 50 and you get a single target DD!  You can use ice comet whenever you want for 3500 damage (confirmed by a 50 wizard) in any situation....a warlock isn't about to cast devastation on a solo mob.  If you were to line it up like that it would be....<BR><BR>Wizard: BOFL, WIS, IcyCoil, Immo. , Icy Comet<BR><BR>Warlock: ND, BSS, NB...uh thats it.<BR><BR>Wizard needs to be bumped up on their spells yes....but to make every spell do the same damage is pointless to having two classes.  Your WIS and BOFL can do less since you have immolation and icy coil [and lvl 43 update/whatever].  Wizards have faster recast timers on BOFL...it if did 1800dmg in one shot like ND does (at adept3 not 1 whoever was an idiot and said that.), then warlock would need a speed boost to keep up with wizard BOFL...do you see the cycle?  Why don't we all go make berserkers and be happy?<BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Crono1321 on <SPAN class=date_text>03-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:46 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>1. Basically, Icy oil is like Steal breath + Noxious bolt. But it does less damage and has a longer recast time. I think Icy coil is good as it is now.<BR> <BR>2. I dont usually compare nil distortion to Ice comet. I did it because someone asked me to. Also... to whoever one-stared my previous post: please reply it if you disagree with it.<BR> <BR>3. Ice comet vs. Devastation: I dont see why a warlock isnt about to cast it on a solo mob. Devastation does like 2500 damage to a single target. It is stronger than most of single target dd spells.<BR> <BR>4. Ball of flames: This spell only needs one thing - mana cost reduction. 200 mana for 600-900 damage is ridiculous. Also Plasmatic pulese: 80 mana for 200 damage...<BR> <BR>5. Wizard's AE spells really need a big buff. 200 damage AE at level 49 is completely useless. Not to mention it has a 5 sec cast time.</DIV>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR> I play a wizard and a warlock and I have something to add...<BR><BR>Icy coil is not the same thing as steal breath.  Steal breath is basically an upgrade to Freezing Whorl.  It has a DoT with poison/disease debuff.  Ours doesn't do a DD up front/debuff/dot.  We dont' really get one of those.<BR><BR>Noxious Bolt is not the equivalent to anything...its the next DD for warlock, upgrade to Ice Spike/Blaze/whatever...call it the equivalent to icy coil without a dot/debuff.  Adept 1 does around 200-400dmg for me at lvl 32 depending on if I debuff/etc (you know how random it is).  <BR><BR>Don't compare Nil Distortion to Ice Comet either...because Warlock gets an AE at 50 and you get a single target DD!  You can use ice comet whenever you want for 3500 damage (confirmed by a 50 wizard) in any situation....a warlock isn't about to cast devastation on a solo mob.  If you were to line it up like that it would be....<BR><BR>Wizard: BOFL, WIS, IcyCoil, Immo. , Icy Comet<BR><BR>Warlock: ND, BSS, NB...uh thats it.<BR><BR>Wizard needs to be bumped up on their spells yes....but to make every spell do the same damage is pointless to having two classes.  Your WIS and BOFL can do less since you have immolation and icy coil [and lvl 43 update/whatever].  Wizards have faster recast timers on BOFL...it if did 1800dmg in one shot like ND does (at adept3 not 1 whoever was an idiot and said that.), then warlock would need a speed boost to keep up with wizard BOFL...do you see the cycle?  Why don't we all go make berserkers and be happy?<BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Crono1321 on <SPAN class=date_text>03-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:46 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>1. Basically, Icy oil is like Steal breath + Noxious bolt. But it does less damage and has a longer recast time. I think Icy coil is good as it is now.<BR> <BR>2. I dont usually compare nil distortion to Ice comet. I did it because someone asked me to. Also... to whoever one-stared my previous post: please reply it if you disagree with it.<BR> <BR>3. Ice comet vs. Devastation: I dont see why a warlock isnt about to cast it on a solo mob. Devastation does like 2500 damage to a single target. It is stronger than most of single target dd spells.<BR> <BR>4. Ball of flames: This spell only needs one thing - mana cost reduction. 200 mana for 600-900 damage is ridiculous. Also Plasmatic pulese: 80 mana for 200 damage...<BR> <BR>5. Wizard's AE spells really need a big buff. 200 damage AE at level 49 is completely useless. Not to mention it has a 5 sec cast time.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>1) Steel Breath is a DOT ....  it's just a DOT with a debuff.  Icy Coil is a nuke that has a DOT effect and debuffs also.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>2) Wizard class definning spell comes at lvl 50... A warlocks comes earlier and it not as powerful.  Good thing comes to those who wait.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>3) Devistation is a Area Effect DOT .... not a NUKE.  It is not an AE Nuke...so it would be a waste of power to cast this on 1 target. It Ticks 4-5 times.... and a 45 sec timer. Warlocks are having problems with it right now.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV>

[TheWhiteRaid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote:<BR><BR><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>1) Steel Breath is a DOT ....  it's just a DOT with a debuff.  Icy Coil is a nuke that has a DOT effect and debuffs also.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>2) Wizard class definning spell comes at lvl 50... A warlocks comes earlier and it not as powerful.  Good thing comes to those who wait.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>3) Devistation is a Area Effect DOT .... not a NUKE.  It is not an AE Nuke...so it would be a waste of power to cast this on 1 target. It Ticks 4-5 times.... and a 45 sec timer. Warlocks are having problems with it right now.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>1)  The leve 40 version of Icy Coil (Piercing Icesicles) has a initial hit of about 200-250 which isn't that much though it does make up for the longer recast.   Icy Coil is just fine as it is.</P> <P>2)  Why is it one spell defines a class?  Now if you mean major nuke then yes, but I would say one spell doesn't state what a class can do.</P> <P>3)  If my memory serves me right,   you have another spell which is also an AoE though it was ment to be a DD and the Devs were going to fix that.  Correct me if I am wrong.   Could you also tell us how much Devistation ticks for please?<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by TheWhiteRaider on <span class=date_text>03-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:09 PM</span>

[Alfred75]

Give the wizards some eye-candy and make them happy. I don't wish to see anymore noobs making warlocks because they nuke a little harder than wizards in certain situations. Noob warlocks = bad name for the old timer warlocks like me who had gone through the bad times. Anyhow, warlox sounds fine, as does wizzy. <div></div>

[Splatterpunk28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alfred75 wrote:<BR>Give the wizards some eye-candy and make them happy. I don't wish to see anymore noobs making warlocks because they nuke a little harder than wizards in certain situations. <BR><BR>Noob warlocks = bad name for the old timer warlocks like me who had gone through the bad times.<BR><BR>Anyhow, warlox sounds fine, as does wizzy.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I made a wizard specifically to compare them to my warlock.  My wizard is 29 now and I've grouped with several warlocks, I've out dps'd every single one of them.  I think there's just too many players that think you're supposed to nuke, nuke, nuke (hence me always asking for parsings).  We'll see how things progress, supposedly the 30s is when the gap is supposed to widen.  </P> <P>Right now, there seems to be a slight advantage to being a warlock in certain situations, but it's more about knowing how to play your class.    </P>

[Darien al'Staff]

splatter..I hate to be rude, but you haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about.  I've studdied playing wizards, and tried every different spell rotation in the book to get the max dps.  In fact, I can pretty much out dps any wizard close to me.  However...I get beaten out by the warlock every time, if he knows his stuff. Sorry.  Their spell line up is simply better.  They do more damage, and they do it for half the mana.  I have over 5 adept III spells at level 33...and when I get beaten out by a warlock two levels lower, with only adept I's? Ball of Fire, adept III Ice Bolt, adept III Icy Coil, adept III Chilling Wind, adept II (training option here) Freeze, adept III Blazing Intimidation, adept III ... Please.  You haven't grouped with many warlocks close to your level. <div></div>

[Dae]

I just find the shortening of any classes name to a "cooler" form annoying. Warlox just stinks of the whole d00dspeak thing. Oh well each to their own. It really is funny that people actually think it's worth all this effort to try and convince someone who clearly thinks totally differently to them that their opinion is correct.  Seriously when the devs get around to comparing the classes properly (I imagine they're all too busy working on the adventure pack right now) they won't use maths posted by people who think they know what they're doing. Pulling out the "skill" card is funny too. How many different ways do you think there are of pressing the same few buttons? People can only work with what they're given. Sure there are some utter idiots but any half-decent player is going to figure out the best combination of spells pretty quickly. If Wizard spells don't stack up against Warlock spells then Wizards need an upgrade. Saying "my Wizard out-damaged everyone in group X" doesn't mean anything because your group could have been full of chimps. Comparing classes on a spell by spell basis is also flawed. Erowid brings the annoyance (for both classes). Trithon brings the maturity and bright, bright colours! Alfred brings the cheap shots and "in my day we had to use sticks!" comments. Fun thread. <div></div>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR> Don't compare Nil Distortion to Ice Comet either...because Warlock gets an AE at 50 and you get a single target DD!  You can use ice comet whenever you want for 3500 damage (confirmed by a 50 wizard) in any situation....a warlock isn't about to cast devastation on a solo mob.  If you were to line it up like that it would be....<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Crono1321 on <SPAN class=date_text>03-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:46 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You most certainly can and will cast devastation on solo mobs.  It will do slightly less damage than Ice Comet but still 2500 points of damage to a single target is not bad.</DIV>

[killzo]

<P>The bottom line is if you take two equally skilled players and compare the Warlock to the Wizard, up till 49 the Warlock will do more damage for less power.  At 50, against non raid mobs the Wizard will outdamage the Warlock due to Ice Comet and the fact that most of these mobs will go down in about 15 seconds making quick damage more relevant.</P> <P> </P> <P>Against raid mobs, Warlocks will dish out more damage for a few reasons.  The first is that many of the raid mobs are totally resistant to Ice Comet. Second is because of the much lower power usage for Warlock spells.</P> <P> </P> <P>On another note, Conjurers outdamage Wizards, Warlocks and Necro's on raid mobs.  I believe the conjurer was even using his level 37 pet (I think he said the higher level one was broken) which did most of his damage.</P> <P> </P>

[Victicu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trithon wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ya, we can compare Immolation to Nil because its our most comparable damaging spell.  Do you really want to compare it to Ball of Flames?</DIV> <DIV>Ok, Nil Distortion...hits up to 2000ish  (adept 1)</DIV> <DIV>       Ball of Flames...hits max 948       (adept 3) <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ummm guess you forgot the recast times of nil distortion and ball of flames...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nil Distortion - 18 sec recast</DIV> <DIV>Ball of Flames - 6 sec recast</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>look at damage numbers with those recast times... and you will see how closely balanced the two spells are...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>although i think ball of flames mana cost should be reduced GREATLY.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Crono1321]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>killzone wrote:<p>The bottom line is if you take two equally skilled players and compare the Warlock to the Wizard, up till 49 the Warlock will do more damage for less power.  At 50, against non raid mobs the Wizard will outdamage the Warlock due to Ice Comet and the fact that most of these mobs will go down in about 15 seconds making quick damage more relevant.</p> <p>Against raid mobs, Warlocks will dish out more damage for a few reasons.  The first is that many of the raid mobs are totally resistant to Ice Comet. Second is because of the much lower power usage for Warlock spells.</p> <p>On another note, Conjurers outdamage Wizards, Warlocks and Necro's on raid mobs.  I believe the conjurer was even using his level 37 pet (I think he said the higher level one was broken) which did most of his damage.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> I would like to correct this....Conjuror has never outdamaged me in a raid...As a 32 warlock, I group regularly with a 31 conjuror with adept3 spells...we went to Cauldron Hollow over the weekend, and both ran our parsers.  The results were 32,xxx / 85ish dps....the conjuror came in with 24,000dmg/ 45dps or something like that.  The wizard...well the wizard didn't do so well.  The pecking order for 22 of us was... 32warlock---85dps 37swash---75dps 31conjuror---45dps 37wizard-----app1 BOFL....newb...u get no parse. Edit-- I did this while using my 2 canni's whenever they were up, and transferring power to the healer every 20seconds or so.  At the end of the battle I still had about 35% power left, using only BSS and Noxious Bolt, with the occasional Suffocating breath (around 100-200dmg DD) and keeping that touch of darkness spell on them (lowers poison resist for 1.5minutes).</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Crono1321 on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:41 PM</span>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crono1321 wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> killzone wrote:<BR> <P>The bottom line is if you take two equally skilled players and compare the Warlock to the Wizard, up till 49 the Warlock will do more damage for less power.  At 50, against non raid mobs the Wizard will outdamage the Warlock due to Ice Comet and the fact that most of these mobs will go down in about 15 seconds making quick damage more relevant.</P> <P> </P> <P>Against raid mobs, Warlocks will dish out more damage for a few reasons.  The first is that many of the raid mobs are totally resistant to Ice Comet. Second is because of the much lower power usage for Warlock spells.</P> <P> </P> <P>On another note, Conjurers outdamage Wizards, Warlocks and Necro's on raid mobs.  I believe the conjurer was even using his level 37 pet (I think he said the higher level one was broken) which did most of his damage.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I would like to correct this....Conjuror has never outdamaged me in a raid...As a 32 warlock, I group regularly with a 31 conjuror with adept3 spells...we went to Cauldron Hollow over the weekend, and both ran our parsers.  The results were 32,xxx / 85ish dps....the conjuror came in with 24,000dmg/ 45dps or something like that.  The wizard...well the wizard didn't do so well.  The pecking order for 22 of us was...<BR><BR>32warlock---85dps<BR>37swash---75dps<BR>31conjuror---45dps<BR>37wizard-----app1 BOFL....newb...u get no parse.<BR><BR>Edit-- I did this while using my 2 canni's whenever they were up, and transferring power to the healer every 20seconds or so.  At the end of the battle I still had about 35% power left, using only BSS and Noxious Bolt, with the occasional Suffocating breath (around 100-200dmg DD) and keeping that touch of darkness spell on them (lowers poison resist for 1.5minutes).<BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Crono1321 on <SPAN class=date_text>03-21-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:41 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I was talking about level 50's against 50+ raid mobs.  These encounters take a long time and as a Wizard even with 2 in combat power regen items and chanter power regens I will run out of power rather quickly and will constantly be converting health to power etc.  Even a Warlock with more efficient power will run out, but the conjurers pet keeps dishing out it's damage.  I don't have a copy of the parse but it was something like 55,000 damage dealt by the conjurer 45,000 dealt by the Necro, 40,000 by the Warlock and 28,000 by the Wizard.  There may have been some power xfering going on but not much.  All parties involved had adept 3's for their damage dealing spells.</DIV>

[Splatterpunk28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darien al'Staff wrote:<BR>splatter..I hate to be rude, but you haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about.  I've studdied playing wizards, and tried every different spell rotation in the book to get the max dps.  In fact, I can pretty much out dps any wizard close to me.  However...I get beaten out by the warlock every time, if he knows his stuff.<BR><BR><BR>Sorry.  Their spell line up is simply better.  They do more damage, and they do it for half the mana.  I have over 5 adept III spells at level 33...and when I get beaten out by a warlock two levels lower, with only adept I's?<BR>Ball of Fire, adept III<BR>Ice Bolt, adept III<BR>Icy Coil, adept III<BR>Chilling Wind, adept II (training option here)<BR>Freeze, adept III<BR>Blazing Intimidation, adept III<BR>...<BR><BR>Please.  You haven't grouped with many warlocks close to your level.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That makes me laugh.  Apparently, you didn't comprehend my post.  </P> <P>Let me start over.  The guy I quoted said, "I don't want to see anymore noobs making warlocks because they nuke a little harder than wizards in certain situations.  Noob warlocks = bad name for old timer warlocks like me who had to go through the bad times."  And in response to that I talked about the warlocks I have grouped with that I out dps'd because they didn't know how to play their class.  And yes, from 26 - 29 (my wiz is 29 now), I've grouped with 4warlocks.  Each one within 2 levels of me, and each one I out dps'd.  Why?  Because they sucked.  That was the point of my post (and the point of the guys post I quoted).  We don't want to become the trendy sorceror, because it draws out...well...a larger population of idiots.  </P> <P>So many people chose wizards because they are under the impression all you do is nuke, nuke, nuke and you'll be the king of damage.  That's not how to play a wizard and it's certainly not how you play a warlock either, if you want to maximize your dps.  When people talk about their groups dps, to me, it's almost useless without someone using a program, like statalyzer, that shows each spell's dps.  It clues you in on what their rotation was and THEN you can make comparison.  If you look at my wizard's history, just dps wise, it would seem that wizards are superior at least up to 29, than warlocks.  When I know that isn't the case -- warlocks do have a slight advantage...but it isn't much, at least not at those levels.      </P> <P> </P>

[Leungd]

<DIV>Guys, before you start whining, plz consider that since the game release, warlock have been falling way behide wizard, while you guys hit for 600s, we only got 400s, when u guys hit for 800s, we only have for 600s. And before the AE of wizards has nerfed(fixed to longer recast instead of 1sec only) , we warlock are in many ways that less superior(or more direct, gimper) then a wizard. And I think I should correct one of your point. WHO in the god's name said we should do the same DPS? Did SOE said that? wha? counterparts? Does paladin and shadowknight have the same dps? has the same AC and HP? No! Does monk and bruiser have the same dps and tankability? NO! Obviously you are comparing 2 completely different subclass which are far more different in many ways, not just casting animation and the resist-base of the DDs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our DD does more damage per hit, yes. Our DD if not resisted use far less power yes, Our lv50 uber spell is far more uber because it does 3k dmg on 5 mobs and yours only does 3.5k on one mob yes. But stop whining and think about it, what is the point to choose a sub class if we just do the same dps, spells have same mana cost, wear the same tpye of armor? For wiz's [Removed for Content] evac? For warlock's broken off combat regen gourp buff? What is the point? If everything is equal, either one of our class dont deserve to exist in the game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Believe in your class and start playing, why bother to compare all day. We warlocks didn't yell all days before the patch in comparison to your class, and finally they upgraded us. Maybe your class is [Removed for Content] because some of you complain too much?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jeanne</DIV> <DIV>lv50 warlock</DIV> <DIV>lv36 weaponsmith</DIV> <DIV>Antonia Bayle, heavily plagued by 6 boxer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play better then you do...</DIV>

[Leungd]

<P>triple post sorry</P> <P>Message Edited by Leungdep on <SPAN class=date_text>03-22-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>07:34 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Leungdep on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:34 AM</span>

[Leungd]

<P>triple post sorry</P> <P>Message Edited by Leungdep on <SPAN class=date_text>03-22-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>07:35 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Leungdep on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:35 AM</span>

[LordDrag]

<DIV>First of all the devs have said that both classes should do the same dps.  Many times, I was there in late beta when they discussed it.  After all, they are 2 DPS classes with no other real utility, of course they have to do about the same DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, warlocks [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ed all the time about being weaker beforehand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third, why on earth do you 50 warlocks come to the wizard forum, tell us our class is fine and we should be happy, lol.  It sounds like you are just afraid that when they balance out the two classes you will get nerfed.</DIV>

[Leungd]

<P>lol thats funny, well I just bored in our own forum and come to take a look, why cant I post here? I didnt tell you your class is fine, instead, both classes are still broken, we have 3 broken tier 5 spells which does even less dmg then the lv30s lower tier spell. I just tell you guys to stop whining and play. Ok, if the dev said we should do about the same dps, how close is "about the same" ? within 5dps, within 10? Then tell me why is there differeces in pally and sk, necro and conjurer, monk and bruiser. Even the healing abilities between priest counterparts is slighty different. Class balancing? After 6 years they cant work it out in EQ1, with only 12 class at all. </P> <P>What I concern is not what the future will be, to hell for the nerf bat, we have been through our dark age, and I am very positive that the dev will only bring up the wiz dps in any case rather then bringing down the warlocks. </P> <P>And to you all warlock hater, yes we do more dps then you guys on single mob from lv30 to 49, yes we knock you off the stage if you talk about AE dmg, yes we solo better even our fear root is broken, yes we have stun that can stun mobs for 11 sec, yes we are in many ways better then you guys. Obviously you clicked the wrong choice when you pick your class. Do you feel happier to hear the truth now? Get a grip and play your class.</P> <P>Ok, we have whined all the time about being weaker beforehand as you say, and we have waited 3 months to become better, maybe you start more whining now they will throw you a bone earlier?</P> <P>Why I come to here is because I have been playing with wizards in my guild and out of my guild, all are lv40+ and most are lv50s, and in fact I am a believer in mage dps, my xp grinding gourp always consist of 3 mage at least, most of the time are wiz and warlock, mostly I will gourp 2 wiz because I dont like my gourp buff being take over, and in my experience they did better before the patch, yes when my nil distortion nuke for 600-700max then nuke for 800-900max but that did not concern me as we always wipe miner gourps fast and clean when 3 or 4 of us AEing and the shiftboss die fast. </P> <P>Up to lv45 after patch upgraded both our class, I usually duo with a wizard to kill double up mob, while I fear and AE root it wiz nuke and stun, as I need to cast my more reliable root wiz still does a little bit better then me, once I remember clearly is that he did 170s and I was 150s, but this is not important and unreliable coz I need to spend time to cast root, </P> <P>When lv50, I form <FONT size=2>gourp of 3 ( wiz , war , temp ) to go to sol eye, we can wipe all the way down to flamelords and the gourp worked prefectly without a tank, yes.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Thats was my boring history and my point is both class are working fine, we co-operate each others well, our buff stack prefectly, and my friends being wizards they enjoy their class, they happy about the upgrade, they focus on their own. I bet the OP dont have a child, never compare your child to your neighbour's , comparison hurts. Sit down, press your button, play your class, enjoy the game, one day the patch will come. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>Your class is good, but not good enough. Our class is better, but not way ahead of yours. We both need a little more boost to become truely best dps in game for sacrificing our HP and AC. The patch is yet to come, before that, play and enjoy, have faith.</FONT></P> <P>Jeanne</P> <P>lv50 warlock on Antonia Bayle</P> <P>I love my class...do you?</P>

[Erow]

<FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#3399cc>Greetings,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399cc>Let me re-direct you to another thread that will shed light on many of your Wizards false fears.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399cc>Link<FONT color=#99ff66>: </FONT><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=9246#M9246" target=_blank><FONT color=#99ff66>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=9246#M9246</FONT></A></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399cc></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nuvi]

<P>another sad thing is that at level 29 ice spike is still a better choice even tho its 14 levels old compared to breath of the ty and impulse,i really hope it gets better..</P> <P> </P>

[Findara]

<DIV>ya know as a 50 warlock I would not mind at all if wizards got ice versions of our poion nukes and fire versions of our desease dots.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>same damage same dots same casting same power return. But give us 3k poison buff, 3k magic buff, oh and give us some more mana dumps, you forget the inequalities go both ways.</DIV>

[Findara]

<DIV>Sorry for double post, had an error about some gateway, and didnt think the post went though.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Findarato on <span class=date_text>06-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:03 AM</span>

[Geoff]

it's fun watching the two rich kids on the block argue about who's got the best bike when us poor illusionists are riding imaginary horses (insert holy grail image)

[kesi]

<P>Someone posted that nil distortion does 1800 points of damage at 37?  </P> <P>I"m level 44 with nil distortion in adept 3 and I'm only breaking the very low 1900.  So I don't see how an level 37 can. Normally I don't do near that much damage 1926 is my highest hit.</P> <P> </P> <P>anyways </P> <P> </P> <P>~k</P><p>Message Edited by kesica on <span class=date_text>06-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:20 PM</span>