Immolation v. Nil Distortion

[LordDrag]

<DIV>Immolation - 4 sec cast time, 20 sec recast</DIV> <DIV>Nil Distortion - 2 Sec cast, 18 sec recast</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Damage is about the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, immolation takes 5 seconds to do its damage, nil distortion is instant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warlock in my group kept blowing me away damage wise, largely because of this spell.  Both lvl 40, I was using all adept 3 nukes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Come on Sony, how about a little damage parity.  Nil distortion can be cast so fast, and has frontloaded damage, he often gets in 2 of them easily when I get in only 1 immolation.</DIV> <DIV>Also, in many cases with multi enemy encounters immolation is useless.  It takes so long to cast and do its damage that the mob is dead when it goes off or only take half of its total damage.</DIV><p>Message Edited by LordDragon on <span class=date_text>03-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:55 PM</span>

[QQ-Fatman]

<DIV>Currently nil distortion is better than immolation. It is an instant dd spell and only takes 2 sec to cast while immolation takes 4 sec to cast and 4.5 more sec to do full damage (which is still a little less than nil's damage and has no mana-back.) Wizards need to cast ball of flames or ice spear to make up the dps, however they "waste" a lot of mana since those spells have very poor dpm (damage per mana) compared to nil or immolation or even dark distortion. Not to mention dot spells have stacking problem - while 2 wizards are in a group, one wizard's dps may decrease because of our main nuke immolation is a dot spell.</DIV>

[Averni]

<DIV>agreed, i dont mind not being as good of DPS as warlocks, because i believe we are more useful IE power dumps...but we are getting out DPSed pretty nicely, eh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i hate to complain more, but it is a lil one sided i think</DIV>

[Keitho]

<DIV>Shouldnt immolation be compared with Ice Comet more so. Nil is our highest nuke and we dont get anything better DD wise ????</DIV>

[LordDrag]

<DIV>Lol, nil is 37, ice comet is 50.  That is why they don't get compared directly.  Compare Ice Comet to Devastation instead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for being a power feeder, wizards are not meant to be bloody mana batteries, neither are warlocks.  I personally feel they need to revamp the mana feed line entirely so we actually do damage on raids.</DIV>

[Splatterpunk28]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First of all, what is the point of your post?  Are you saying Immolation needs a boost or Nil Distortion needs to be nerfed?  You've made no suggestions and there is no reason to even compare the two spells...they aren't the same level or the same type of spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Secondly, to say warlocks can get in 2 Nil Distortions while wizards can get in 1 immolation is a stretch, big time...was it a joke to say that?  Because you gave the casting/recast time in your post.  Do you think people will just skim over that and actually believe that's possible?  LOL</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is hard to compare the two spells, because we don't have carbon copy spell lines.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 37, wizards get BoFl (nuke), warlocks get Nil Distortion (nuke).  </DIV> <DIV>At 39, wizards get Immolation (DoT), warlocks get Curse of Emptiness (debuff).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Immolation is clearly a better DoT than any dots warlocks get until 50 and Nil Distortion is clearly better than any nukes wizards get until 50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to be constructive, why not sit down and figure out what the main spells for damage are for both wizards and warlocks, look at specific spell descriptions (cast/recast/power cost/dmg) and then make a comparison; that would show a bigger, more acurate picture.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as the devs have stated before, there's not going to be a perfect balance of dps every single level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's going to take more than one spell alteration to find a balance that works for a better balance 20-50.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Splatterpunk28 on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:38 AM</span>

[Fendaria]

<blockquote><hr>Splatterpunk28 wrote:<DIV>And as the devs have stated before, there's not going to be a perfect balance of dps every single level.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Unfortunatley as a Wizard I didn't realize that balanace really meant for Warlocks to outdamage Wizards at all levels except 50 (where we 'may' be balanced, I can't say myself yet and I haven't seen proof yet).(Oh, and I suppose you could claim balance at the really low 20s before Warlocks/Wizards get any real class specific nukes and are still basically Sorcerer's).Fendaria<p>Message Edited by Fendaria on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:41 PM</span>

[Victicu]

<DIV>Before the big live patch #3 wizards outdamaged warlocks at every level...yet no one cared or complained...and warlocks still got groups and did just fine...funny how things change</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now on topic...Please compare Nil Distortion and Ball of Flames.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nil Disotortion and Immolation have nothing in common and should not be compared.</DIV>

[Fendaria]

<blockquote><hr>Victicus7 wrote:<DIV>Before the big live patch #3 wizards outdamaged warlocks at every level...yet no one cared or complained...and warlocks still got groups and did just fine...funny how things change</DIV><hr></blockquote>Strange. I don't remember Wizards protesting <em>increase Wizards but please devs don't touch Warlocks whatever you do</em>! Heck I myself wanted ALL mages looked at, not just Wizards/Warlocks.And now you have Warlocks saying <em>keep quiet Wizards and live with your lower DPS</em>.Fenaria<p>Message Edited by Fendaria on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:12 PM</span>

[Keitho]

<DIV>/agreed with Victicus7</DIV> <DIV>/disagree wuth Fendaria  I dont see warlocks saying hush hush. My opinion over this is utility vs. dps. You want more dpsId expect Utility to be taken away or some given to warlocks. Since SOE doesnt like giving extra stuff to classes Id expect wizards to get less utility.</DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Before the big live patch #3 wizards outdamaged warlocks at every level...yet no one cared or complained...and warlocks still got groups and did just fine...funny how things change<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Asking for balance is your right! You didnt care? too bad!  But we care! We wizards will keep complaining till this being looked at and fixed. </DIV>

[TheWhiteRaid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Before the big live patch #3 wizards outdamaged warlocks at every level...yet no one cared or complained...and warlocks still got groups and did just fine...funny how things change</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>It is because we were all complaining that our DPS was inferior to scouts.   We were gimped brothers at arms.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Victicus7 wrote:</DIV> <DIV>now on topic...Please compare Nil Distortion and Ball of Flames.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nil Disotortion and Immolation have nothing in common and should not be compared.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Levels don't mean a thing.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If both nukes hit in the same damage range they are and no other nukes come close then they are fair game.</DIV>

[LordDrag]

<DIV>Ok, utility.  We get a crappy evac that is far inferior to any of the scout evacs.  Warlocks get out of power regen spells, and spells that drain enemy power and give it to the party.  I rather think those balance out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, often a warlock will get in 2 nil distortions for 1 immolation.  Think about it.  You both cast at the start of the fight, then wait for recast.  Immolation is 4 cast + 20 recast, 24 seconds total.  Nil distortion is 2 cast + 18 recast, 20 total.  So 20 seconds after you both cast the spell the first time, he recasts nil distortion.  22 seconds after the start, he has cast 2 nil distortions.  You need 28 seconds to get in 2 immolations, and 33 seconds for both to do full damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>22 seconds for 2 full damage nil distortions compated to 33 for 2 full damage immolations is a big difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And lets toss in a few other spells.  Dark distortion has a 2 sec cast and 9 sec recast.  Compare to Ball of Fire with a 3 sec cast and 13 sec recast.  And yet, dark distortion does MORE damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or Noxious Bolt, 2 sec cast, does 500ish damage with a chance to dot.  Lets not compare to plasmatic pulse, which does maybe 200 damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact is wizards are getting pretty heavily outdamage and Warlocks seem suprised that we are annoyed.  These classes were always said to do the same dps with differences in how they do it and some of their utility abilities, Devs stated so about a dozen times in late beta.  Now wizards are getting the short end of the stick for no reason.  All we ask is that it be balanced out.  Preferably by bringins wizards up to par, not nerfing Warlocks.</DIV><p>Message Edited by LordDragon on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:11 PM</span>

[Splatterpunk28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fendaria wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Splatterpunk28 wrote:<BR> <DIV>And as the devs have stated before, there's not going to be a perfect balance of dps every single level.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Unfortunatley as a Wizard I didn't realize that balanace really meant for Warlocks to outdamage Wizards at all levels except 50 (where we 'may' be balanced, I can't say myself yet and I haven't seen proof yet).<BR><BR>(Oh, and I suppose you could claim balance at the really low 20s before Warlocks/Wizards get any real class specific nukes and are still basically Sorcerer's).<BR><BR><BR>Fendaria <P>Message Edited by Fendaria on <SPAN class=date_text>03-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:41 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Really low 20s?  My wizard is 28 and I just grouped with a 29warlock in RoV just 2hours ago...guess who was out dps'd?  The warlock.  My avg dps for the 50min was 65dps, his was 57...</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordDragon wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok, utility.  We get a crappy evac that is far inferior to any of the scout evacs.  Warlocks get out of power regen spells, and spells that drain enemy power and give it to the party.  I rather think those balance out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, often a warlock will get in 2 nil distortions for 1 immolation.  Think about it.  You both cast at the start of the fight, then wait for recast.  Immolation is 4 cast + 20 recast, 24 seconds total.  Nil distortion is 2 cast + 18 recast, 20 total.  So 20 seconds after you both cast the spell the first time, he recasts nil distortion.  22 seconds after the start, he has cast 2 nil distortions.  You need 28 seconds to get in 2 immolations, and 33 seconds for both to do full damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>22 seconds for 2 full damage nil distortions compated to 33 for 2 full damage immolations is a big difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And lets toss in a few other spells.  Dark distortion has a 2 sec cast and 9 sec recast.  Compare to Ball of Fire with a 3 sec cast and 13 sec recast.  And yet, dark distortion does MORE damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or Noxious Bolt, 2 sec cast, does 500ish damage with a chance to dot.  Lets not compare to plasmatic pulse, which does maybe 200 damage.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by LordDragon on <SPAN class=date_text>03-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:11 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is a joke.  First of all in order for a warlock to get in an extra Nil Distortion compared to a wiz's immolation, the ratio is 20sec/24sec, so 5/6 ratio it would take 6casts of Nil distortion...so we're looking at a single target that's going to live over 2min?  Oh that happens all the time...</P> <P>And where as wizards can shoot off their immolation early on, a warlock cannot do so with Nil Distortion.  So that couple of seconds that a warlock has in favor because of front damage, quickly falls to theory and not practice because of aggro.</P> <P>When comparing the two lines of spells, as someone that plays both, I personally think Ball of Fire/Flames may need to be looked at.  But I would need to look at spell descriptions a bit more and make more comparisons.  </P> <P>I do know that the answer is not going to be simple.  And starting post after post whining about wiz vs warlock dps and not even showing detailed spell numbers of dps is a waste of time and it just makes wizards look like cry babies.<BR></P> <P>Message Edited by Splatterpunk28 on <SPAN class=date_text>03-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:26 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Splatterpunk28 on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:11 PM</span>

[Kilferf 'U]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Splatterpunk28 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Wiz's Plasmatic Pulse is a level 27 nuke + chance of DoT<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It's more like a firecracker.... :smileysad:</DIV>

[Renynz]

I would just be happy with a 2-second casting time on the spell myself. Considering the amount of Aggro Immolation packs, shaving the recast to 18 seconds (effectively allowing the spell to be cast every 4 seconds faster) might end up just killing the wizzie.

[LordDrag]

<DIV>Splatterpunk said</DIV> <DIV> <P>"This is a joke.  First of all in order for a warlock to get in an extra Nil Distortion compared to a wiz's immolation, the ratio is 20sec/24sec, so 5/6 ratio it would take 6casts of Nil distortion...so we're looking at a single target that's going to live over 2min?  Oh that happens all the time..."</P> <P>Sigh, did you read my argument?  Take a math class.  You are talking about sustained damage over long periods of time, in which case that 5/6 ratio begins to work.  However in relatively short fights it is very common for a warlock to get in 2 nil distortions, which takes 22 seconds (2 casts, 1 recast).  2 casts and 1 recast of immolation take 28 seconds, AND you need 5  more seconds for immolation to do its damage, which works out to 33 seconds.  There are a lot of fights that end between 22 seconds and 33 seconds.  Hence, warlock gets 2 big nukes in, wizard gets 1.</P> <P>Also, having bigger nuke with longer recast timers does tend to increase damage in any fight that doesn't drag on for ages.  That is simply because your nukes refresh before the fight while the tank is pulling, so all your damage is ready.  This is what I call Front Loaded damage.  I could explain it in more detail, but feeling lazy<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P></DIV>

[Eleis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordDragon wrote:<BR> <DIV>Splatterpunk said</DIV> <DIV> <P>"This is a joke.  First of all in order for a warlock to get in an extra Nil Distortion compared to a wiz's immolation, the ratio is 20sec/24sec, so 5/6 ratio it would take 6casts of Nil distortion...so we're looking at a single target that's going to live over 2min?  Oh that happens all the time..."</P> <P>Sigh, did you read my argument?  Take a math class.  You are talking about sustained damage over long periods of time, in which case that 5/6 ratio begins to work.  However in relatively short fights it is very common for a warlock to get in 2 nil distortions, which takes 22 seconds (2 casts, 1 recast).  2 casts and 1 recast of immolation take 28 seconds, AND you need 5  more seconds for immolation to do its damage, which works out to 33 seconds.  There are a lot of fights that end between 22 seconds and 33 seconds.  Hence, warlock gets 2 big nukes in, wizard gets 1.</P> <P>Also, having bigger nuke with longer recast timers does tend to increase damage in any fight that doesn't drag on for ages.  That is simply because your nukes refresh before the fight while the tank is pulling, so all your damage is ready.  This is what I call Front Loaded damage.  I could explain it in more detail, but feeling lazy<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Er, I play a wizzy and support boosting Wizards and all (need more mana-efficiency), but um. You say Warlocks can cast 2 Nil Distortions in one fight vs. 1 Immolation for Wizards. And the fight would probably last between 20-30 seconds. But the Warlock can only cast another Nil Distortion at the end, in fact the very end, of the fight. In my experience, in the last 3-7 seconds of a fight, it's usually not worth it to cast a huge nuke like that. I don't know about Warlocks, but if the mob has ~15% hp, and the party is doing well, I wouldn't waste power to throw in another immolation, it just gains lots of aggro, spends lots of power, and only speeds up the battle by a few seconds at most. I have no data to prove that it would not benefit much to cast a last-second big nuke, but it's just my personal observation and opinion.</P> <P>Personally I don't think it's Immolation we should look at here, but Ball of Flames, Plasmatic Pulse line and our AoE's(e.g. spells we would frequently use more than once per battle). Immo's good =D</P>

[LordDrag]

<DIV>Well, there is some truth there.  But it is less useful to cast immolation since it takes so long, lol.  Fight is over by the time it is done.  But the nil distortion can be cast quickly and does its damage instantly, makes a big diff especially towards the end.</DIV>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Splatterpunk28 wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Really low 20s?  My wizard is 28 and I just grouped with a 29warlock in RoV just 2hours ago...guess who was out dps'd?  The warlock.  My avg dps for the 50min was 65dps, his was 57... <HR> </P> <P> The only way for that to happen is if the Warlock was not using upgraded spells and was getting resisted a lot or didn't know what they where doing.  Just look at the damage/recast time on the level 20 spells.  There is no way a Wizard should outdamage a Warlock at those levels if both know what they are doing.   The main DD spells you will both be using are ice spike and Dark Distortion/Ball of Fire.  Explain how a Wizard would be doing more damage?<BR></P> <P> </P> <HR> <P>This is a joke.  First of all in order for a warlock to get in an extra Nil Distortion compared to a wiz's immolation, the ratio is 20sec/24sec, so 5/6 ratio it would take 6casts of Nil distortion...so we're looking at a single target that's going to live over 2min?  Oh that happens all the time...</P> <P>And where as wizards can shoot off their immolation early on, a warlock cannot do so with Nil Distortion.  So that couple of seconds that a warlock has in favor because of front damage, quickly falls to theory and not practice because of aggro.</P> <HR> <P> <BR>I'm not sure who you group with but I rarely get aggro even with Ice Comet.  The bottom line is, it is often a race to see who gets nukes off first before things drop.  In such a case the couple of seconds sooner that 2 Nil's can go off will often amount to the mob being dropped and the damage being done by the Warlock.</P> <P>Likewise it takes 4 seconds to cast immolation.  In the extra 2 seconds of sitting there waiting, a Warlock can be casting some other DD spell.</P> <P>The bottom line is, if they didn't make the changes they did to Warlocks and Wizards the classes would just not be playable.  Unfortunatly what they did was quick and dirty patching and there is much work left to be done.  Flamestrike is pretty useless for a level 46 spell.  Ice Spike does more damage.  Protoflame does nothing, Paralyze a level 44 upgrade to a level 27 spell does LESS damage and takes twice as long to cast.</P> <P>What they need to do is take a serious look at both classes, go through ALL the spells, and make sure they are all useful.  If a spell will never be on my hotbar, then there is no reason for it to be in the game.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[V4n]

I made my warlock back when all sorcerers were gimped, with the knowledge that wizards at the time did more dps. That being said, I certainly appreciate the recent improvements to my dps, and I wholly advocate wizards being balanced with warlocks. My biggest fear is that to do this, warlocks will be nerfed. Please let's not throw daggers at each other. We should be sensitive to each other's concerns and strive to gain the best possible balance and game play for all.

[TheWhiteRaid]

<DIV>In this case I would say the issue is with Wizards and not Warlocks.    </DIV>