Yet another dps observation

[slard2]

I'm not whining. I'm just stating what I've observed in groups.I know there are some possible issues going on with resists that the devs have said they're looking into, but let's assume for the moment that that isn't a consideration. I say not to consider it, because I've made this observation when I've not been resisted during a battle, so in general, you can't attribute this to resists.I've spent countless hours in Permafrost killing giants and I still notice fairly commonly that me, a wiz, can be out-dpsed by an Assassin and Berserker of the same level. I have Ice Comet Adept 3, and at the minimum, all my other spells are Adept 1.So let me begin with my standard spell cycle on a ^^ mob.1. Piercing Icicles2. Icy Coil3. Incinerate (don't laugh, this spell has a super-fast cast, and is hardly ever resisted)4. wait a second or two5. Immolation6. wait a second or two7. Ice Comet / BoFlames + BoFire (depending on what the mob's health looks like)8. more than likely, it's dead, whatever it isIce Comet draws aggro like a mother f*****, so it's not something that you can start off with and then continue to nuke away with other spells. I don't slack in groups. I believe a wizard should be just under the tank as far as hate. If you're not, then you're not doing your damage potential.I can achieve pretty nice dps on mobs. Don't get me wrong, ever since the wiz/warlock update, my dps is significantly higher, and that's great.Parsings reveal, however (and, unfortunately, I'm at work so I can't post the ones I have), that I can consistently be out-dpsed by a 50 Assassin and a 50 berserker; possibly by other classes, but these are the two I'm going to discuss because it has actually happened to me. Sometimes by small margins, othertimes (with a resist, for example) by large ones.I *could probably* out dps both of them, if I didn't have to consider aggro. But since I'm among the ranks of paper-machet mages, I must control aggro or die.Aside from the fact that they shouldn't be out dps'ing a wiz in the general case, there are two other problems. In the case of an assassin, the class has more than one hate reducing ability. In the case of the berserker (assuming he is MT), he can dish damage with impunity; the more hate the better. A wizard must throttle damage much more or face the consequences.Not a rant. Just observations of my own that lead me to believe that wizard DPS isn't done being addressed. It's moving in the right direction, but it's not quite where it should be.-rastaoun50 wizAscendance - www.ascendanceguild.comNeriak Server

[Thyri]

hmm have you ever thaught that in Permafrost mobs have higher ice resists then normally and therefore greatly lowering dps?

[slard2]

Yep, sure have thought about that. When I cited Permafrost, I did not mean to imply that this is the only place that this occurs. It certainly isn't. It's happened in Soluske's Eye as well, which, using your reasoning shouldn't have as high ice resist.I also stated in my original post that this occurs during battles where I receive no resists whatsoever. So, <b>in the general case</b>, it cannot be attributed to resists.And on a side note, the high resist that a mob would seem to have isn't always the one that it does have.-rastaoun50 wizAscendance - www.ascendanceguild.comNeriak Server

[Thyri]

then it sounds really strange to me. Do you have any hard dps numbers of the classes?

[slard2]

Citing from memory, so these aren't exact numbers... I'll have to post those later.In the giants in Permafrost, for example, I can pretty easily get around 110-120 dps. I can go higher, but I'll tend to draw aggro.A 50 berserker can usually get around this number as well, if not more. The berserker tends to vary a little more. A 50 assassin (without using something like Assassinate) can consistently get around 130-150 dps. Throw a non-item haste buff into the mix and both of these melee classes go even higher.If the mobs are ^ or regular, then they'll out-dps even further simply due to cast and re-cast times. I'm not really counting those though in order to consider the situation more clearly.-rastaoun50 wizAscendance - www.ascendanceguild.comNeriak Server

[papabear0]

<DIV>__________________________________________________ _____________________________</DIV> <DIV>In the giants in Permafrost, for example, I can pretty easily get around 110-120 dps. I can go higher, but I'll tend to draw aggro.<BR>__________________________________________________ _____________________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you can do higher dps but you choose not to.  thats how it should be.</DIV>

[Zcenicx]

<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>Stating that you have Ice Comet means you're L50.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>I have a hard time understanding the problem though, and it's not semantics.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>I'm L42 atm. In Permafrost, Rivervale, Cazic-Thule, Lavastorm etc I tend to land between 150 and 200 DPS on yellow/orange mobs. That's normally L43-46 mobs. </FONT><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>The DPS result is normally dependent on the choice of tank.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>A lot of resists can lower me down to 120ish, but that's a rare occasion.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>I don't have Ice Comet, I do it all mainly on Piercing Icicles, Icy Coil, Ice Spear, Ball of Flames and Immolation. All Adept 3 except Ice Spear. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>Using a paladin or shadowknight (ntm monk/bruiser) as a tank isn't preferrable if you want to nuke though, I can easily pull aggro from those. Berserkers or even better guardians are my preferences. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>Edit;</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>The biggest rivals I've seen in the DPS range are the necros and conjurors. They most often reach 80-90% of my dps output. Assassins tend to land between 50 and 66% depending on the lenght of combat - longer equals lesser. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>Even swashbucklers and brigands tend to beat them, ~75%. Rangers and bard classes normally reach 40-50% of my dps.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Zcenicx on <span class=date_text>03-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:38 PM</span>

[Fendaria]

Can you please state which parsers you are using? They differ in how they compute their DPS numbers.Zcenicx, I'm wondering if your seeing higher DPS numbers because of the parser your using.One of them, I forget which though, does a poor job of deciding when a battle starts and ends so you end up getting DPS relative to when your casting in a fight and not for the complete battle. If you wait till the mob is at 70% health before you start nuking then you might be missing 30% of the fight. In my mind DPS should be calculated for the whole fight, not just the part your involved with. There is a post <a href="http://www.combatstats.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=67&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=" target=_blank>here</a> on the CombatStats forum about this issue.I could be wrong of course <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Fendaria

[Thyri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> slard271 wrote:<BR>In the giants in Permafrost, for example, I can pretty easily get around 110-120 dps. I can go higher, but I'll tend to draw aggro.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sounds to me like either a problem on the tank side or a problem with how you use your spells. I cant say for wizards, but i dont think warlocks are that higher in dps then wizard. And i can be easily over 180dps constant currently at lvl40 (all 3 main nukes are adept3 and one of them lvl40 trait), if resists arent too often its over 200dps. So maybe your parser is missing some of your spells (i cant use parsers but my own is calculated for what i mention are average hits and resists)</DIV>

[Zcenicx]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>I normally use Combatstats, which counts the entire duration from pull to end.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>I also have statalyzer that only counts your fighting duration, not the entire combat, and that usually shows 250+ dps numbers, but it's as you said not exactly accurate.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>What you can look at tho is the total damage dealt. This is an accurate log parse:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>Rivervale, nightblood harrower + nightblood shadowrage, L44, 1x^^ + 1x^, duration 1 min 8 sec</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>Highest hit: Wizard - 767 with Ball of Flames.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>39 Paladin: 2619 damage</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>42 Wizard: 10639 damage</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>40 Swashbuckler: 4611 damage</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>42 Guardian: 1016 damage</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>A total of 18885 damage dealt of which the Wizard does more than 50%.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>The 2 healers did not do any damage.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>This would with that timeframe give a rough DPS of 156 to the wizard, 68 to the swashbuckler and 39 to the paladin.</FONT></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Zcenicx on <span class=date_text>03-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:48 PM</span>

[Asterra]

Oh, be quiet. It's not a "problem with his spells". I can attest, as a level 50 Wizard with all Adept III or Master I nukes, to the fact that most tank classes DO out-DPS Wizards most of the time, at least on raids. It is a fairly well-established fact at this point, so laughing it off as user error won't work. My guildmates and I hold unofficial DPS competitions, and the results usually look like this, in order of descending DPS: Warlock, Bruiser, Shadowknight, Guardian, Wizard (we have no Berserkers or Paladins). Sometimes the Bruiser does more damage than even the mighty Warlock, but generally that's what the pattern looks like. The main tank (a Guardian) generally does less DPS than even a Wizard, probably for reasons associated with his role as main tank, but other Guardians typically do more.Couple in the fact that Wizards and Warlocks - counterpart classes - have such huge disparities in DPS, soloability and utility, and it becomes painfully obvious that a LOT of tweaking is going to happen, soon.

[Zcenicx]

<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>On raids the wizards fall on the DPS arena since we cant keep up when we don't have any mana left.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>In raid scenarios our main function is being mana batterys for the healer. If there are enough healers with enough mana we can do damage and seed mana as we need to.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>Melee classes will outdamage casters on raids. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>Caster classes will outdamage melee in normal groups.</FONT></DIV>

[Thyri]

lol sorry, but reading that a wiz at lvl50 does less then 200dps inflicts just user errors, theres no exception for that when i know of many wiz/warlocks being around 200dps at lvl40 or above, and tanks still hold aggro. Seeing parses of a wiz doing around 160dps at lvl42 and having wizs in our guild doing around 200 at lvl40 seems just to be either user errors or parser errors.

[Zcenicx]

<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>As I said, my parse above was just an example. I can easily reach 200 dps if I'm not too unlucky with resists and fizzles. I have a very hard time seeing an even higher level wizard than me not being able to equal that in a normal group.</FONT></DIV>

[Admh]

<DIV>it's usually Piercing Icicles, Icy Coil, Ball of Flames, Immolation, Ball of Flames, WestFiend's, Ice Comet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rinse Repeat... I pump about [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] near 320dps with this cycle..  (w/o resists) The hard thing is to make that tank hold aggro after my 2nd ball of flames.. At that point I know that mob will turn around and start pounding on me unless it's rooted or something. that's about 7k damage intitial.. i can do this cycle about 3-4x depending on my mana.. after that.. i'd have to pull another 3k mana outta nowhere by leaching hp-mana converter.. manastones and other mage/necro toys.</DIV>