Single DD Nukes & Overall DPS (utility spells aside)

[spyderopt]

I've stumbled upon why a Warlock does more DPS than a wizard.. (it's because they do everything a Wizard does, only better)37 Wizard (using his highest DDs Adept, 1s) nukes for approx 300-400 less per hit than a 37 Warlock (using his highest DD, Adept 1s). Wizard has roughly 20 more intelligence and closing to level than the Warlock (higher skill likely given those are their primary nukes). The wizard and warlock were asked if they were debuffing (both in same group killing same mobs) and damage was higher still on Warlock than Wizard when neither tried to debuff/buff for dmg, and there was a significant higher NUKE (not DPS!) the warlock was doing than the Wizard when buffing/debuffing by both chars.With a wizard using Ball of Flames and Ball of Fire there is little "wait" time on recharge, maybe 1 other nuke inbetween. The warlock is nuking equally as fast yet for higher damage by a considerable margin.Now at 50 Wizards get ice comet on a 45 second timer, while warlocks get a comparible fair DoT. The stickler is the Warlock will have utility in their class with Fear/buffs yet STILL have higher SINGLE DD nukes than a wizard -and- have better DoTs. Something is really amiss here.This does not even take into consideration, better dots, Warlock buffs. I can understand say throughout a mob that has 10k HP if a Warlock did 7000 points of dmg even and the Wizard, however *** To nuke -as fast- as a Wizard of equal level and comparible variables by a considerable amount on each nuke is ludacris ***BTW..** This is not a whine to nerf Warlocks, they are fine imo, my brother has a level 40ish Warlock and he is more than fine yet not overpowered. I watch him solo and its atleast "do-able" without much worries vs blues, however watching a wizard trying to solo blues is somewhat humorous with brokens roots, no fear, lower dots and lower dmg nukes. Wizards should have their damaged increased on their single nukes by a considerable amount to make up for the lack of overall utility/dmg while that'd still put them fairly behind dps than a warlock [as they should be] however their single nukes should be atleast equal given this is really all they do/have and somebody else does it way better/then some.People can try to justify why wizards are whining, but when you're outright replaced by a class who does your main ability better then brings more to the table in addition is silly. It'd be like an Inq being out healed by a Mystic while the Mystic could also have better buffs, who'd want an Inq? Or for that matter who wants a Wizard when currently a Warlock can do everything a Wizard can, but better [prove me otherwise in first hand witness of comparible wizard/warlock single DD nukes]. Bottom line is single DD nukes need to be raised to be fair and in line what the class is supposed to do. I'd be happy for them to raise them to even warlock DDs and leave warlocks alone with everything, atleast you don't look like a [Removed for Content] being out single nuked by a non-wizard. It's not a matter of HOs, Adepts, Skill, or anything, it is purely broken dynamics. The spread difference remains the same, and if anything spreads further on Adepts and HOs. ** Is there something I'm just not seeing as to what a Wizard can do better than a Warlock? We're not talking DPS over a fight, that is MISCONCEPTION because our DPS is done mostly by nuking (while other's strengths should be more along lines of DoTs), and currently our nukes are lower AND our dots are lower it's not just dots which would be more in line, you're being out DPS'd on 2 fronts, your bread and butter nukes being one of them. Again, on a long haul fight yeah a Warlock should do more DPS, fine, but you simply cannot justify why 37 Warlocks do over 1k nukes non-HO and a equal level Wizard using equal adepts would be hard pressed to do it non-HO [all else like dots/fear aside] **It's a dead horse, because those who claim it is understand how broken it is, and are enjoying out right replacing a class on 2 fronts and fear a nerf. The fact should remain the nukes should be raised at the very least. With the "class fix" it was more of a "class replacement" and a bandaid out of pity.If you're going to engage in the nuke topic (not even going into Dots and fear) please support your case, there's enough opinions out there, nothing will get -fixxed- unless others say what they've seen in comparible situations in terms of single DD nukes or somewhat giving stats on the events.I'd love some sort of dev to atleast "look into" it, but somehow guess they're done with the wizard class in terms of "balance fixes". An increase in damage is one thing, the increase however is too little to be viable in a group when another can do it better in every aspect and more. Maybe somebody can post otherwise on how their wizard on nukes (not DoTs, not over duration of the fight) can do higher DDs non-HOd/HOd over a Warlock of comparible variables.<p>Message Edited by spyderoptik on <span class=date_text>03-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:43 AM</span>

[Violator]

<DIV>I believe that the main difference in DPS is their 2 DD's. Dark Distortion and BSS, and Nil Distortion. They hit quite a bit harder then our DD's, have a shorter casting time, and less time between casts. Supposedly Immolation (lvl 39-40) is supposed to be our main source of damage till Ice Comet. They get their main DD spell at 37. They also get the two main spells that make the biggest difference. Fear and boney grasp. We need a 36 second unbreakable root, then we could solo well too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall, congrats to our bretherin. Finally getting a well deserved fix. Maybe we will get some attention, maybe we won't. Alot of other classes have issuses worse then us, so we will probably have to deal with this for some time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: oops... wrong times.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Violatortn on <span class=date_text>03-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:14 AM</span>

[spyderopt]

"I believe that the main difference in DPS is their 2 DD's. Dark Distortion and BSS, and Nil Distortion. They hit quite a bit harder then our DD's, have a shorter casting time, and less time between casts. Supposedly Immolation (lvl 39-40) is supposed to be our main source of damage till Ice Comet."Guess I should have rolled a Warlock, I was under the impression that Wizards was supposed to have the highest single DDs (even if the recharge were to be longer) nukes and Warlocks had higher DPS due to decent nukes/better DoTs. Atleast at level 50 they have the highest single DD <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[iceriven2]

I have grped with warlocks my lvl several times. Twice with someone having a parser. We were about even. Some fights he beat me other fights i beat him. Our dps number varied, but the warlock never had too much of higher dps then me from what i can recall. Once or twice the amount of dps was great on the warlock, but they never did it often enough for me to worry. Just to give an idea(numbers are no where close to the actual real thing) warlock range was 2k-3.5k damage, Wizard 2k-3.5k damage. thats what it was like we both seemed to have the pontential to get around the same amount damage. BUT i will say just using the numbers i used as examples the warlock did a few time hit for like 4k-4.5k compared to my 2k-3.5k BUT it only happened a hand full time. Oh and lvls were in the high thirties when i grped with them. So my guess is in certian situations warlocks can me greater dps, but i have to see those situations enough to be a real problem. Only real problem i have seen is warlocks like to steal agro a lot. big nukes and added effects on aoe can do that . BUT lol mangement ppl kk manage that hate u pesky warlocks.

[spyderopt]

"I have grped with warlocks my lvl several times. Twice with someone having a parser. We were about even."How high were the mobs relative to the levels of the players? Seems they do higher DPS on bigger fights and about same on easier kills (due to their DoTs not ticking enough to count up enough on damage parser). Also is the mob a single mob or linked/group that'll tick up further (not thats there's any problem with that or on harder single mobs even, its being out damage on two fronts makes a wizard a watered down version).From what it seems, it's somewhat misleading I supposed that I thought the wizard would have the heaviest damage single nukes available, unless you count the level 50 nuke.When grouped, found we damage so hard/so fast together its alittle hard to tell where the difference is since the nukes are around the same cast speed and if mob dies fast it's trickier. On orange-red group/linked mobs, the DoTs begin to add up (as they should) but the single nukes are as well higher which compounds it further. Find myself in the group wondering, "what can I bring this group that the Warlock isnt already or a Warlock replacement for me wouldnt" to find a playstyle that'd be more effective than trying to Nuke or DoT since apparently neither are the class strength.<p>Message Edited by spyderoptik on <span class=date_text>03-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:43 AM</span>

[Asterra]

I've grouped with a Warlock several times as well, always with somebody parsing. We were both level 50 with Adept III spells across the board. The difference in DPS was phenomenal, owing largely to the fact that every second or third encounter involved a group of three or more mobs. Elongating the cast time on Devastation won't have any effect on the disparity. Until they give Wizards similar AE power, Warlocks are going to completely blow Wizards away in such scenarios.

[amair_]

From my experiences parsing levels 39 and 40 as a Wizard in two groups with the same warlock (who was also 39 and 40 respectively) I have found that we are a bit disadvantaged atm, but I am confident we will be tuned up to the warlock level in future patches. These were my findings :I am using all adept 3s, that is for Icy Coil, Icicles, Freezing Wind, BoTt, BoF, BoFlames, P. Pulse, Blazing Int. I also selected West. Ice Spear at level 30 so I use that one as well.The Warlock had no Adept 3s whatsoever, she told me she had Adept 1 on all of her offensive DDs and her DoTs/Debuffs.Parsing in RV killing Nightbloods over a period of around 12 hours I observed that I would have the highest DPS of the group in probably 50% of the encounters, the warlock and I were always very close though and there was rarely a disparity of more than 15 DPS between us. Except on fantastic tanks we could both pull aggro if we overnuked, so you might say that we have enough firepower for the said level range at the moment. When have an exceptionnally good tank I could just chain cast, it was marvellous.Here are more specific details I noticed during my parsing session:1. I was nuking like a madman to attain my DPS, by this I mean I was focused to stay on the ball and get the timers working perfectly by using 9 offensive/debuff Spells continuously.2. The warlock seemed to be able to achieve similar or superior damage by using only a few spells, I believe it was somewhere around 6.3. I used an obscene amount of power each encounter compared to the warlock, the disparity was ridiculously big for 2 sister classes achieveing similar results.In the light of these observations I was a bit surprised, my expectations as far as class DD ability was that a fully upgraded wizard would be able to outdamage any wizard of same level that is not using adept 3s (which is achieved) and to be able to logically outdamage any warlock that: 1. has received all his equivalent spells 2. that is of the same level if it applies and most importantly 3. that is not using all adept 3s.Now this is not a whine, it is simply my observations over a relatively short, but significant period of time. My humble suggestions to fix the Wizard damage output would be:1. Leave the 3 Immolation ticks as they are now, patch notes said the cast timer was to be 3 seconds and that Immolation was to do 2 ticks. Now unles you significantly beef up the initial damage of this spell, having it only tick 2 times will be a crippling blow in our arsenal.2. Reduce the casting timer of Immolation to 3 seconds. It would not overpower us by any means and would make the spell much more functionnal in grouping, it would also raise our damage output slightly by giving us 1 additionnal second to launch that BoFlammes after the Immo.3. I suggest a revisiting of spell costs or a beefing up of our mana regenerating abilities. As of now we need to cast 2 or 3 BoFlames to equal the damage of one Warlock Big Nuke (terribly sorry I forget the name Nil Distortion I believe) that is a ton of power to achieve a simillar result (and then again the advantages/disadvantages of relying on 3 casts to do the damage of 1 could be debated).4. I would suggest either revisiting the scaling tables for Spells upgrades. I realize that you have a better understanding of the dynamics of wizards vs warlock spells than I but from a user's perspective there still is some adjusting to be done. I will re-iterate that I believe that warlocks are right where they should be at the moment and that it would simply take a small adjustment to our class to balance the sorceror class.5. In the same line of thought, I suggest revisiting the Wizard spell damage, especially on: Ball of Flames, Ball of Fire, Plasmatic Pulse (and the AoE but I will leave that headache alone for now). I dont think a major overhaul is required, I do believe however that a few minor tweaks to the damage output of these spells could be beneficial and would bring us in line with our brethren.I thank you for reading and I hope this information has been useful.Cheers,Amair_sc

[Fendaria]

Wizards are just in a poor situation right now compared to Warlocks. From 20 to late 40s were behind Warlocks. (I wont comment on 50 as Devistation just got changed (poorly done I might add)). It ends up being if you compare Warlocks spells to like Wizard spells the Warlocks are just flat out better. I find myself wishing I was a Warlock because I'll do better DPS with less mana than as a Wizard. There are not any pro's that make up for this to me in being a Wizard.And now I'm sure some Warlock will say 'But you guys get evac!' Sigh.The bad side is at this point after the initial 'fix' the devs will probably never address this again. We had better hope things bode well for us in the next exspansion.Fendaria

[spyderopt]

<DIV>* Revised my first post in this thread to keep information more clean in appearance. </DIV> <DIV>** Can anybody post (with or without dmg comparisons) how their Wizards do damage wise in a group post level 40 and if they</DIV> <DIV>feel they are a viable means of damage/utility in the group that any other class would not be able to fill better?</DIV> <DIV><!--StartFragment --></DIV> <DIV>Some things I noticed a few levels ago:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Constants<BR>----------<BR>Me: Level 37 (almost 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Wizard, Using at that time Adept 1 Ball of Flames/Fire<BR>Warlock: Level 37 (unknown), when asked stated they were using Adept 1 nukes<BR>Upon inspecting his stats, seen my INT was higher by around 10-15pts and other stats <BR>were about the same.<BR>Mob: Both were attacking same mobs on assist ranging from Lamias, Scarecrows, and wolves in RV (though<BR>I have grouped with 1-2 level higher Warlocks in Feerrott and seen similar results though I'm not<BR>using them in this comparison to keep it more even, but the spread was even further spread by alot)<BR>Casting Times: Casting at roughly the same speed (on the big nukes which we were both almost solely using)<BR>CASTING TYPE IN QUESTION: Single DD Nukes<BR><BR>Variables<BR>---------<BR>I was doing with Ball of Fire and Ball of Flames consistantly around 300-400 damage less per SINGLE nuke, in addition seemed to be burning power at a far greater rate while casting at the same speed for less damage on this single nukes.<BR><BR>The damage I was doing was approximatly in the 600 range, yet I seen this warlock dropping 800-1000 point bombs extremely often, non-HO'd. I'd love to see a wizard that was level 37 using Adept 1s nuking a scarecrow/lamia [level 39-40 mobs] for over 1000 dmg non-HO. Now before there is a rant "use adept 3s", the Warlock was using Adept 1s as well and his spread would be equally higher at Adept 3s of his type.<BR><BR>* Note I left DoTs out of this because this is not a Wizard's "strong" point in terms of being a high DPS char, the DoTs/AE is where the Warlocks shine/should shine to make their -overall- higher. IE: Higher level mobs with more HP a Warlock would pull way ahead in damage done for the fight than the Wizard, in a lower level mob the spread is closer because DoTs/AEs (AE especially in cases of non linked mobs) don't have time to "tick" enough to gain the DPS advantage as much so.<BR><BR>Issues<BR>------<BR><BR>1. A Wizard can be out SINGLE nuked by a comparible Warlock atleast in the range of 37-40, this is not counting a level 50 ability, a class should not be defined by 1 spell they get at the final level of the game rather their role they play in a group. If a Wizard gets the highest single DD nuke (ice comet) then their roles are heavy nukers, then ponder this, how is it then so easily out damaged on single nukes atleast 37 onwards to 50? Am I missing something maybe we get soon to make us less of a "group filler" that a warlock can do better than us? [again of course Warlocks should be higher DPS, but it should not come because they do everything Wizard does only better, it should come from AE/DoTS/Nukes/ETC, Wizards are atleast from my understanding getting their DPS (though lower than warlocks) more or less via their nukes].<BR><BR>2. Wizards solo ability is pathetic at best for XPing. Been watching my brother solo from level 38-40 at times playing his Warlock, he can solo yellows without much worry. Of this level, a Wizard with no fear and subpar nukes has to work his tail off. Immolation is possibly the only saving grace for solo to practical otherwise risk > reward = not remotely worth the time spent in comparison. There are some cases where a Wizard can kill yellows and oranges at those levels sure, but sometime watch other classes how they can solo yellows [hell whites for that matter] and let me know if you still feel it's equal. Perhaps a new stun or longer stun duration would help Wizards in this area some to make up for lesser damage they get more time to kill with.<BR><BR>3. Power consumption. Aside from converting HP into Power, it seems that for those lower damage nukes at the same speed, we burn power faster. Does Warlocks have some sort of Power Drain that takes from mobs and gives to them without sacrificing hitpoints? Find myself converting down to 1/2 health and healers though I tell them I'm just converting heal me in case I do agro by chance. I'd be out of my mind solo to convert hitpoints to power trying to solo if I'm low on power. <BR><BR>Wizard PROs that they bring most group?<BR>---------------------------------------<BR><BR>1. Evac - This can be done by several classes and does not rely solely on a wizard, though a wizard can do this if there is somebody else who can evac it nearly nullifies the wiz advantage [though multiple people with evac is nice don't get me wrong].<BR><BR>2. Power Transfer - This is nice, however I'd be willing to bet than if you're spending your time power transferring the fight likely is not going too well and evac would be served better or you'd be able to by then drill into the mob and just finish it off with your nukes. On raid mobs I can see it as a help, be nice if they amount of power transferred were increased atleast to make it more pronounced perhaps.<BR><BR><BR>** This is not a cry for a nerf, this is food for thought that we are out single nuked (up to 50), out AE'd, out DoTTed, can't mana drain, can't fear. I would trade evac in a second to do something in a group than be outright replaced by somebody who does everything entirely better. This is not a question of DPS, Warlocks should be able to beat Wizards BASED ON duration of a fight, NOT based on hitting harder in every aspect. Raise Wizards to where they belong, the damage increase was nice, but it looks stupid when you're in a group obviously being out nuked when you're supposed to be a heavy nuker by an equal level of another class. What exactly is the role of a Wizard again? I was under the misunderstanding we were the heaviest nukers, not the highest DPS, in this case it seems like we're neither. It's easy for Warlocks to come here and cry foul when they're doing another classes' job then some, what they fail to realize it nobody is asking for them to be nerfed, a Wizard needs to be boosted again to where they belong not with more bandaids [if you're well below 40/mid 30s, you probably do not see this huge difference in nuke output].<BR><BR>** Discussing Class Roles: Could a Dev describe how a wizard falls into the "nuke" line for casters? Are we supposed to have the highest nukes and overall lowerest DPS due to lower DoTs/AEs? If this is the case how is our singles often being out damaged. If we're meant to not be highest nukers [even if the recharge were raised but damage/castable stuns were increased] it would feel alittle more wizardly. Is it by design we're beaten on DPS because another class does -everything- better DPS wise [getting their DPS by means of having higher damage across the board rather than duration of a fight via AE/DoTs/medium nukes].<BR><BR>** Please post observations and keep things civil, it stinks when you feel out right replaceable by a class that does everything you can but better [by a good margin]. I'm looking at why is this happening, how to fix it, and for how long does it occur until. Atleast at level 50 Wizards are kings of NUKES, I don't care about DPS, I just wanted to have the highest single DD nukes in the game even if the recast were slower =/ <BR><BR>Trying to have a conversation in terms of "what do we bring in terms of our damage versus any sort of class description/perception" that another mage could not so we know how we are supposed to fit. I get alot of people surprised by my damage asking if I have shards all over when I'm grouped with Warlocks due to my single nukes being consistantly lower. Maybe if other classes read this forum they would realize Wizards apparently according to SOE are not meant to have the highest nukes and it would make our role of power-xferring easier when people complain we're not nuking at end of fights and xferring power to healers (which they may not realize we're trying to do, or knowledable that the role of a wizard would be wider than nukes alone).<BR><BR>No grudges or hard feelings towards Warlocks here, I'm self at fault for believing when I rolled a wizard my nukes were meant to be the highest DMG but in the end would do less damage throughout a fight than others. More along the lines of when a mob was about dead, I could drop that bomb and finish it off if I scrounged alittle power. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-- Keep it civil, won't even waste time replying to mindless rants.</DIV>

[Frozen]

You aren't mixing up warlocks with necromancers?Warlocks as like a sorcerer with green spell graphics.

[PontyEar]

<DIV>Unbreakable root, sounds good. If Fear and Bony Grasp can't be broken it's not fair that our Root can. </DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PontyEar wrote:<BR> <DIV>Unbreakable root, sounds good. If Fear and Bony Grasp can't be broken it's not fair that our Root can. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>our unbreakable root = ring of cold @ level 41.6</DIV>

[Zcenicx]

<DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>For the last time, NIL DISTORTION is NOT the equivalent BALL OF FLAMES!!!</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>Nil Distortion compares to Immolation (39.0) which at my level can hit for up to 1800 damage alone. </FONT><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>Add in BoFl and Ice Spear and you have a lethal combination.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>A Warlock *will* outdamage a Wizard between 37 and 39, simply because we haven't gotten our main nuke at those levels. </FONT><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>After that, it's all dependent on the tank really. After 39 you can normally pull aggro at will no matter the tank.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>At 42 I can reach 175 DPS on a yellow/orange mob in CT or 200+ on blue/white in Obelisk. So can the Warlocks I group with. I don't care about burning mana. I have three mana seeds, two mana heals and a manastone to remedy that. Only time I run out of mana fighting is vs epic mobs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>Adara Frostborne</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>L42 High Elf Wizard of Shadowhaven</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffff00>Najena</FONT></DIV>