whine whine whine [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Kolina

02-27-2005, 01:26 PM

<DIV>All you Fanboi's can rant and RAVE about what a great game this is, however in contrast to the first ( some of you call it EQlive) EQ1 this game is nothing short of sh$t, and with the last patch it went ever further. I am sure I am not the only person that canceled my account over the way this game is evolving. I had enough with EQ1, but the only thing EQ2 has done is make me miss EQ1. Bottom line this game sucks and with the way it is going it will do nothing but single handedly embody all the problems with EQ1. For you all you Fanboi's enjoy... and by all means enjoy flaming this post as I will not be here to read it. It is a shame that SOE took such an innovative game from Verant and turned it into what we now know as EQ2. FFS they didn't need to dumb it down to the point that it took all skill needed from the game and created a generation of Button Mashers. Defend that if you wish fanboi's it will only prove that Button Mashers you are indeed.</DIV>

Zcenicx

02-27-2005, 03:17 PM

<DIV>Please let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.</DIV>

Arkanj

02-27-2005, 07:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kolinahr wrote: <DIV>All you Fanboi's can rant and RAVE about what a great game this is, however in contrast to the first ( some of you call it EQlive) EQ1 this game is nothing short of sh$t, and with the last patch it went ever further. I am sure I am not the only person that canceled my account over the way this game is evolving. I had enough with EQ1, but the only thing EQ2 has done is make me miss EQ1. Bottom line this game sucks and with the way it is going it will do nothing but single handedly embody all the problems with EQ1. For you all you Fanboi's enjoy... and by all means enjoy flaming this post as I will not be here to read it. It is a shame that SOE took such an innovative game from Verant and turned it into what we now know as EQ2. FFS they didn't need to dumb it down to the point that it took all skill needed from the game and created a generation of Button Mashers. Defend that if you wish fanboi's it will only prove that Button Mashers you are indeed.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Is this guy cool or not? I can't tell. One thing's for sure, this made me LOL in the middle of my workplace.</DIV>

TheC

02-27-2005, 08:06 PM

Is a fanboi someone who enjoys the game they play?

Stavenh

02-27-2005, 08:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kolinahr wrote: <DIV>All you Fanboi's can rant and RAVE about what a great game this is, however in contrast to the first ( some of you call it EQlive) EQ1 this game is nothing short of sh$t, and with the last patch it went ever further. I am sure I am not the only person that canceled my account over the way this game is evolving. I had enough with EQ1, but the only thing EQ2 has done is make me miss EQ1. Bottom line this game sucks and with the way it is going it will do nothing but single handedly embody all the problems with EQ1. For you all you Fanboi's enjoy... and by all means enjoy flaming this post as I will not be here to read it. It is a shame that SOE took such an innovative game from Verant and turned it into what we now know as EQ2. FFS they didn't need to dumb it down to the point that it took all skill needed from the game and created a generation of Button Mashers. Defend that if you wish fanboi's it will only prove that Button Mashers you are indeed.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Go sell crazy some where else, we are all stocked up here.</DIV>

jwizzle7

02-27-2005, 08:44 PM

<DIV>sounds like someone didnt get that drop they wanted /laugh</DIV>

Treve

02-27-2005, 08:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kolinahr wrote: <DIV>All you Fanboi's can rant and RAVE about what a great game this is, however in contrast to the first ( some of you call it EQlive) EQ1 this game is nothing short of sh$t, and with the last patch it went ever further. I am sure I am not the only person that canceled my account over the way this game is evolving. I had enough with EQ1, but the only thing EQ2 has done is make me miss EQ1. Bottom line this game sucks and with the way it is going it will do nothing but single handedly embody all the problems with EQ1. For you all you Fanboi's enjoy... and by all means enjoy flaming this post as I will not be here to read it. It is a shame that SOE took such an innovative game from Verant and turned it into what we now know as EQ2. FFS they didn't need to dumb it down to the point that it took all skill needed from the game and created a generation of Button Mashers. Defend that if you wish fanboi's it will only prove that Button Mashers you are indeed.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> i'm EQ2's biggest fanboi :smileyhappy:, but I'm going to try to address what you've said 1.) while i haven't played many MMORPG's, the evolution is this game is outstanding - a patch everyday? - and not just fixing bugs...for me, that in itself is remarkable 2.) i'm assuming you were a wizard because you post in this forum and i wanted to address the "generation of button mashers" comment. For me as a wizard, it is an ongoing challenge to understand the mobs and what would be the best strategy and at the same time, to take into account the classes and strength of other people in the group. Let me give you an example. Last night, I was in a group with an assasin, a templar, a warlock and me (obviously a wizard), so therefore we had no tank and the group was only 4 people. We started at the entrance and fought all the way down to Hwal (sp?) and killed him. Only one death at the very end when I got aggro from Hwal. A truly remarkable group, but the strategy i had to use was totally different. There was no MT. I raise this point because i think there are a lot of "button mashers" out there. But if you take the time to really understand your spells and develop a strategy for each kind of mob in each situation, i think you'll love being a wizard - as do many of us here. Being a wizard is to be one of the pillars of the group - we are the #1 damage producer (without comment on other threads) and always welcome in a group. Wizards have no real "auto-attack" function. Let's face it, if a wizard in in melee mode, the group is in trouble. Not having any auto-attacks, being a wizard means planning each spell and also responding to HO's at the same time. If a wizard plays like i do, there is absolutely no time to chat while a fight is going on. I think it's a challenge, and i love it for that. 3.) an exit string like yours provides no real value to the dev's. It is not specific enough for them to consider why a subscriber would leave and therfore, i'm sorry to say that your post has little value. Given all this, I would normally ask if i can have your gear. :smileyvery-happy:, but since everything is attuned now, that's really not possible. But if you have a collection of good bags and trunks, i would be interested :smileyvery-happy:

Kalin Lazare

02-27-2005, 08:55 PM

He's a whiner by his own admission, look at the title of the post for crying out loud...Most of all, I love the fact that he stated his opinion without even going into his reasons why he feels that way.To the OP - Can't wait for you to get the hell out of my game. We need fewer people like you.

Pkac

02-27-2005, 09:13 PM

IBL ....Can i have your Gold? I'd have your stuff too but its attuned now, unless you forgot to attune it or didn't read the notes, and hence kept dying, hence the rant....So, Can I have your stuff?Pka

Treve

02-27-2005, 09:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pkachu wrote: IBL .... Can i have your Gold? I'd have your stuff too but its attuned now, unless you forgot to attune it or didn't read the notes, and hence kept dying, hence the rant.... So, Can I have your stuff? Pka <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> omg!!!!...i forgot about his money!!...anyway, i asked for his stuff first :smileyhappy:

R4it

02-27-2005, 11:40 PM

In a word:Bye.-Raithe

Pkac

02-28-2005, 12:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Treveur wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pkachu wrote: IBL .... Can i have your Gold? I'd have your stuff too but its attuned now, unless you forgot to attune it or didn't read the notes, and hence kept dying, hence the rant.... So, Can I have your stuff? Pka <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> omg!!!!...i forgot about his money!!...anyway, i asked for his stuff first :smileyhappy: <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ok, you get his boxes, bags, and all the gear whining NooB probably forgot to attune, I get the coin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Deal?</DIV>

Treve

02-28-2005, 12:31 AM

<DIV>well...you can have whatever is the *least* valuable...now...*that's* a deal :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

Pkac

02-28-2005, 12:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Treveur wrote: <DIV>well...you can have whatever is the *least* valuable...now...*that's* a deal :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> his presence in game is the least valuable tbh, and I certainly don't want that Pka

Torgr

02-28-2005, 04:56 PM

I can understand some of the views K expressed. Although his attitude is kinda bad. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I do miss some of the tactics that were available in EQ1. The ability to solo the named mob in the lower levs of a dungeon by using combinations of invis and taking out individual or duo mobs on the way down was always a lot of fun for me. I havent seen a situation yet in EQ2 where that is possible. The concept of the grouped or heroic mobs is a real pain. For example the group of 4 miners in Zek. Take out one and the other 3 come running even though they are not even in sight. I do seem to be not much more than a button masher at times especially in grp situations. There just isnt anything more to do than nuke, nuke nuke. With a tank who is doing the same on his taunt abilities they can keep agro on a large grp of mobs and i can jsut keep hiting them with AE dots and nuking as fast as I can. All that aside, I am enjoying the game and hope there is more improvments in our class mostly in the areas of roots, fizzles and interrupts. I would like to feel heroic sometime by actually being able to take down an heroic encounter solo.Message Edited by Torgrin on 02-28-2005 04:08 AM

Torgr

02-28-2005, 05:07 PM

I can understand some of the views K expressed. Although his attitude is kinda bad. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I do miss some of the tactics that were available in EQ1. The ability to solo the named mob in the lower levs of a dungeon by using combinations of invis and taking out individual or duo mobs on the way down was always a lot of fun for me. I havent seen a situation yet in EQ2 where that is possible. The concept of the grouped or heroic mobs is a real pain. For example the group of 4 miners in Zek. Take out one and the other 3 come running even though they are not even in sight. I do seem to be not much more than a button masher at times especially in grp situations. There just isnt anything more to do than nuke, nuke nuke. With a tank who is doing the same on his taunt abilities they can keep agro on a large grp of mobs and i can jsut keep hiting them with AE dots and nuking as fast as I can. All that aside, I am enjoying the game and hope there is more improvments in our class mostly in the areas of roots, fizzles and interrupts. I would like to feel heroic sometime by actually being able to take down an heroic encounter solo.Ack! newbie poster <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Message Edited by Torgrin on 02-28-2005 04:09 AM

Kamuj

02-28-2005, 07:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kolinahr wrote: <DIV>All you Fanboi's can rant and RAVE about what a great game this is, however in contrast to the first ( some of you call it EQlive) EQ1 this game is nothing short of sh$t, and with the last patch it went ever further. I am sure I am not the only person that canceled my account over the way this game is evolving. I had enough with EQ1, but the only thing EQ2 has done is make me miss EQ1. Bottom line this game sucks and with the way it is going it will do nothing but single handedly embody all the problems with EQ1. For you all you Fanboi's enjoy... and by all means enjoy flaming this post as I will not be here to read it. It is a shame that SOE took such an innovative game from Verant and turned it into what we now know as EQ2. FFS they didn't need to dumb it down to the point that it took all skill needed from the game and created a generation of Button Mashers. Defend that if you wish fanboi's it will only prove that Button Mashers you are indeed.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Althought you get a D for presentation, your point is sadly correct. You should realize that the people who feel as you do have already quit the game and are not likely to read the forums. The people who do read the forums are the people who are inclined to like the game as they have not quit. Don't think your alone. The boxes of EQ2 rotting on the store shelves speak volumes about what the REAL majority thinks. EQ2 is a flop. Let them have it. If they like it, thats awesome for them. PS An interesting thing you can do is to go to the main EQ2 forum and mark all forums as read. Then go to the SWG main forum and mark all as read. Come back a week later. You'll notice that the SWG forums get far more posts then EQ2. Why is this relevant? Well, maybe its not. I find it interesting. I expected EQ2's forums would be FAR more active. They are not. Message Edited by Kamujin on 02-28-2005 06:46 AM

EvaLegi

02-28-2005, 08:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kamujin wrote: PS An interesting thing you can do is to go to the main EQ2 forum and mark all forums as read. Then go to the SWG main forum and mark all as read. Come back a week later. You'll notice that the SWG forums get far more posts then EQ2. Why is this relevant? Well, maybe its not. I find it interesting. I expected EQ2's forums would be FAR more active. They are not. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Let me let YOU in on a little tidbit. Do you know why SWG forums are more active? The game sucks. They have nothing better to do then post. People post less on EQ2 forums because *gasp* they play the game.

Kolina

02-28-2005, 09:21 PM

<DIV> It is with humble retraction that I post again. I always find it interesting when Alcohol, Forums, and discontent merge. It can seem that you are typing some serious words of wit or remarkable words of wisdom, yet the final product is nothing short of a masterpiece scribbled by a 5 yr old. Now, with that said, Please do accept my apologies for intruding with such diarrhea of the mouth, and ignorant babble, however my basic message, and disappointment with this game remains the same. So, in a way to quantify and qualify my thoughts ( not my last post, as there is no way to validate that mess) I felt it reasonably responsible to follow up. First off, let me address my use of Fanboi. In my experiences these are people that vehemently defend, against all attacks, a position without any critical thought. They represent the yes men, the brown nosers, and [Removed for Content] kissers, and make any dissenting ideas extremely hard to get attention. As people express problems or complaints with issues, they will attack these issues and the posters with chants of how nothing is broken, and everything is fine the way it is. I have witnessed frequent problems with this type of mentality on past forums and assumed that this forum was no different. As with all forums I am sure someone (Fanboi) will pick up on this, using the quote function and piece mill it line by line thinking that somehow they can substantiate love for the game by arguing against someone’s personal opinion. This has nothing to do with The class I play. Yes I play a Wizard, yes there are inherant problems with this class as I am sure there are with everyclass. As one poster said, my original post referred to no specific problems and that is neither helpful to the Devs or constructive for the community. So, in an effort to be "constructive" these are my complaints with the Game itself: (this might get rather lengthy). No skill needed - I spoke of button mashers, and I believe this to be true. There is no skill needed any longer, everything is handed to the player. I am sure that for raid mobs there may still be some type of strategy required to take them on, however normal grouping lacks this draw. There is no longer a need for harmony, as now you know exactly how many mobs you will get for each pull. Unless you position your group in a place that is guaranteed to get adds, the whole grind experience becomes a dull rhythm that puts people to sleep. For those that played the first EQ I am sure you can empathize with this analogy. I remember many over pulls that resulted in a dead chanter, an OOM Cleric and a Wizard forced to engage in stun rooting, while the Tank and others performed emergency bind wound, in an effort to keep the tank up just a bit longer in hopes of salvaging the engagement. Or, when another group in a camp next to your gets more than they bargained for, and shouts for help. Your group would move to them and a mass melee would ensue. Regardless of the outcome of either of these scenarios, the experience of the fight was worth its weight in gold on the fun factor scale. Sadly enough EQ2 is lacking this. Hell, in contrast to the engagement platform of EQ2, Fear CRs almost seemed more fun. Aggro Management - This falls under the No Skill Needed heading. It seems that the basic and only method of Aggro management in EQ2 in the simplest form, is just not Nuking. Gone are the days of The thinking man's Tool, known as Concussion. Here if you pull aggro your dead, end of story. In EQ1 you could walk a fine line of High Dmg output and pulling aggro, by using Concussion, and if you did pull aggro, you could stun, root and spam concussion, giving you at least some chance of surviving. ( This actually required some sense of knowing your group, knowing your class, and knowing your spells.) As is stands now there is no need for skill, either you nuke, or you don't and if you do your chances of Exp Debt increases with each push of a button. Grouping - Groups just don't stay together, people intent on completing their current quest join up, kill the 3 mobs they need and move on. I understand and conceded that giving and alternate form of level advancement in the form of quests is a unique idea, but it undermines the basis for groups. You stand around waiting to get a group together, head in, and within 10 to 15 mins someone already has to go. ( usually because they completed the part of the quest they needed) This was also prevalent in EQ1, but not as frequent as it is here. I understand that people have real lives and other obligations they must tend to, and under those circumstance I fault no one for the dissolution of a group, however when a feature of the game directly results in poor grouping practices then that is another story. This limits the cohesiveness of the the in Game community as time spent with individual characters is very limited. I still speak with, on a daily basis, people that I met in EQ1 within the first month of it going live. I have been in EQ2 since it's debut and have yet to be given enough time to get to know anyone that well. The Holy Trinity - The buzzword from EQ1. For those of you that don't know, that mean the core requirements of a group were a Cleric, a Tank, and a Chanter. It was nice to see that in EQ2 more classes capable of filling the Healing position, giving groups a larger choice of players and not stagnating a group until they found a Cleric. However, it seems to me that in order to have an Extremely successful group, you must have two healers. I personally don't understand why they (SOE) would fix a problem, only to create a dependence on numbers. Boreal - Obviously this is a throwback from the discussions on the Wizard fixes from EQ1. Part of the "Silence" line that was abandoned. I can see where this would have serious use in a Raid situation with more than one Wizard. Being able to control a mob in trade for lowering the dmg output of the Raid. However this is worthless in a group setting. It will only hold a mob for a short amount of time, and usually won't hold it for more than 3 secs because members of the group intentionally breaking it. ( Again part of the button masher mentality) TBH I have no clue why this is relevant to my over all complaint just a pet peeve of mine. Latest Patch – IMO the latest Patch removed any ability for adventure classes to make money. That is unless you want to be an Artisan. I personally don’t want to be an Artisan, I didn’t in EQ1, I didn’t in SWG, and I don’t want to be here. SO that leaves me with two options to make money. Selling non-attuned mob dropped items, but lets be honest, if you are in any kind of respectable group, when a Decent item drops, it more than likely will go NBG to a group member, unless you win it and I am sure if the item exceeds any of your current gear you would rather wear it than sell it. This means that you are relegated to selling substandard FFA gear. I would imagine that this would present little extra on hand cash. The second option is not much better. You can mine, forest, and collect in an effort to sell to Artisans. However, most artisans will either mine their own OR have an Adventure alt class that they can mine/forest/ect for them. Thus the end result is; if you wish to succeed you must be a tradeskiller. I cannot imagine why this would make current artisans happy since it will increase the over all availability of active artisans, thus reducing the over all selling prices for items crafted. I understand the idea behind the patch though. It is to create a money sink in order to prevent inflation and market saturation. I honestly don’t have a fix for this, hell, I doubt John Maynard Kanes would understand or have a fix for this game’s economy. I have more complaints some frivolous and some not, but this is just to give an idea of why I have problems with this game. In an effort to sum it all up, let me say this. I played EQ1 for five years, and I had some problems with the way that game progressed. I was originally happy to see some of those problems addressed in EQ2, but not happy to see that some of the fixes seemed like poorly thought out blanket fixes that had residual effects on other parts of the game. I cannot understand why they rebuilt the game, because they took anything of any familiarity from the first and discarded it. The only similarity to still exist is the name. Why they didn’t just take the base concept and expound on it by adding to and fixing existing problems I have no clue. EQ1, among all it’s faults still had an air of interest to it. It possessed the ability to keep people coming back, because from time to time you actually had fun. This is something that sadly EQ2 is missing. As I said before, the only thing this game as done for me is make me miss EQ1. With that I know I am not alone. I am left wondering if SOE merger of servers for EQ1 is not a little premature as according to my old guild’s msg board, more and more people are starting to return to the old game as they have become disillusioned with this one. Again this is all in my Opinion. Right or wrong I don’t suppose it matters but I did feel that I owed you all as part of the EQ community something more than just a mind numbing and slanderous rant. <DIV>Kolinahr </DIV> <DIV>70th lvl Grand Arcanist - EQ1 </DIV> <DIV>32nd lvl Craptastic Wizard - EQ2</DIV></DIV>

Kamuj

02-28-2005, 09:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EvaLegion wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kamujin wrote: PS An interesting thing you can do is to go to the main EQ2 forum and mark all forums as read. Then go to the SWG main forum and mark all as read. Come back a week later. You'll notice that the SWG forums get far more posts then EQ2. Why is this relevant? Well, maybe its not. I find it interesting. I expected EQ2's forums would be FAR more active. They are not. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Let me let YOU in on a little tidbit. Do you know why SWG forums are more active? The game sucks. They have nothing better to do then post. People post less on EQ2 forums because *gasp* they play the game. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Well, I kinda agree that SWG is largely regarded as a failure. What I find interesting is that their forums are more active then EQ2. You can suggest why the EQ2 forums are less active, I don't know. I just said it was interesting. As for EQ2 being a happy euphoria where people have no complaints worth posting, I think we can all snicker at that.

Treve

02-28-2005, 10:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kolinahr wrote: <DIV> No skill needed - I spoke of button mashers, and I believe this to be true. There is no skill needed any longer, everything is handed to the player. I am sure that for raid mobs there may still be some type of strategy required to take them on, however normal grouping lacks this draw. There is no longer a need for harmony, as now you know exactly how many mobs you will get for each pull. Unless you position your group in a place that is guaranteed to get adds, the whole grind experience becomes a dull rhythm that puts people to sleep. For those that played the first EQ I am sure you can empathize with this analogy. I remember many over pulls that resulted in a dead chanter, an OOM Cleric and a Wizard forced to engage in stun rooting, while the Tank and others performed emergency bind wound, in an effort to keep the tank up just a bit longer in hopes of salvaging the engagement. Or, when another group in a camp next to your gets more than they bargained for, and shouts for help. Your group would move to them and a mass melee would ensue. Regardless of the outcome of either of these scenarios, the experience of the fight was worth its weight in gold on the fun factor scale. Sadly enough EQ2 is lacking this. Hell, in contrast to the engagement platform of EQ2, Fear CRs almost seemed more fun. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> I see a lot of merit to this statement. I find that it's not necessarily a SOE issue, but (going out on a limb here) it's the way everyone *wants* to play. People want it to be easy - I have no idea why. Personally, if it's not a challenge, i'm a little bored and maybe I become a bit of a button-pusher too. But let me give you the flip side. A few days ago, I was invited to an RoV group. So far, there were four of us - a healer, an assasin, a warlock and me (wizard). We were lvl28-34. Suddenly the group is moving out - with only 4 people - and no tank! We moved through the zone carefully and with strategy, through guardians and down to some of the named mobs. It was a challenge. You needed to be on your toes and everyone had to be really sharp. At the end of it, we had *no* deaths at all. But there was a lot of cheering in the group at the end. We had *really* accomplished something. I'm not sure how SOE could encourage this - more XP for smaller groups? <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE> Boreal - Obviously this is a throwback from the discussions on the Wizard fixes from EQ1. Part of the "Silence" line that was abandoned. I can see where this would have serious use in a Raid situation with more than one Wizard. Being able to control a mob in trade for lowering the dmg output of the Raid. However this is worthless in a group setting. It will only hold a mob for a short amount of time, and usually won't hold it for more than 3 secs because members of the group intentionally breaking it. ( Again part of the button masher mentality) TBH I have no clue why this is relevant to my over all complaint just a pet peeve of mine. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> lol...it's a pet peeve of mine too...as a wizard, i think the entire group is at risk if i use this spell...it take the highest dps class (see other threads for debate) out of the picture. Personally, I have never used it. I have never seen an opportunity in a group where it would be valuable. Just yesterday, we were doing the Zek boat ride and one of the wizard's jobs was to use Boreal on the named mob. It was a disaster. The spell is very weak, short-acting and imho, not likely to land anyway. Taking a wizard and his dps out of the action to try to land (and hold) a mezz is just plain dangerous i think. <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE> Latest Patch – IMO the latest Patch removed any ability for adventure classes to make money. That is unless you want to be an Artisan. I personally don’t want to be an Artisan, I didn’t in EQ1, I didn’t in SWG, and I don’t want to be here. SO that leaves me with two options to make money. Selling non-attuned mob dropped items, but lets be honest, if you are in any kind of respectable group, when a Decent item drops, it more than likely will go NBG to a group member, unless you win it and I am sure if the item exceeds any of your current gear you would rather wear it than sell it. This means that you are relegated to selling substandard FFA gear. I would imagine that this would present little extra on hand cash. The second option is not much better. You can mine, forest, and collect in an effort to sell to Artisans. However, most artisans will either mine their own OR have an Adventure alt class that they can mine/forest/ect for them. Thus the end result is; if you wish to succeed you must be a tradeskiller. I cannot imagine why this would make current artisans happy since it will increase the over all availability of active artisans, thus reducing the over all selling prices for items crafted. I understand the idea behind the patch though. It is to create a money sink in order to prevent inflation and market saturation. I honestly don’t have a fix for this, hell, I doubt John Maynard Kanes would understand or have a fix for this game’s economy. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I understand this very well too. I had been accustomed to "trading up" my gear. I could afford to bridge the gap between the value of selling my current gear and buying new gear. I was also someone who turned their gear around very quickly. I would upgrade all the time, keeping that gap as small as I could so I would never encounter a high upgrade price. This patch made a *huge* difference to the way I played. You're also correct, in my opinion, about making money harvesting resources. For some reason, the bottom fell out of the prices of raw material. I used to harvest TS like crazy and sell the raws to fuel my gear upgrades. This past weekend, I dumped my stacks of carbonite, gold, and (can't remember what the common wood drop is). The price? 1 copper each. I carried those stacks for *weeks* - and at a reasonable price to reflect the time involved. Have you seen the prices? People are down to 3 copper for those raws. Personally, there is no way i'm going to harvest for that amount of money, and I don't know why anyone else is either. As a side note to the people who are charging ridiculous amounts for food/drink supplies, your days are numbered too. I will buy those supplies at a reasonable cost. But when you start charging 1silver for a murdunk orange, you totally erode my profit and make it not worth crafting at all. At the same time, I can spend one hour harvesting my own raw materials and come up with everything i need for free - and I'm talking a *stack* of oranges, wheat, etc.. The people like me in the food/drink business are doing the same and, like other common raw materials, the bottom will shortly drop out of that too. To the OP, thanks for coming back and letting us understand your concerns about the game. :smileyhappy:You can see that i agree with you in many areas and i think many people do as well.