The massive power disparity between Warlocks and Wizards at level 50

[Asterra]

I went over this material in an earlier thread but I wanted to see what the Wizard community thinks about the state of things.These two classes are supposed to be counterparts. The implication is that they are equal but opposite. They get nukes and dots based on poison and disease, we get nukes and dots based on fire and ice. Any significant advantages or disadvantages in any particular scenario could only ever be frowned upon. Example: One may be good at soloing while the other is inadequate. That sort of scenario simply engenders disgruntlement, and there's no point to it. So what is the state of things at level 50 for these two classes?In a nutshell: Warlocks do about 30% more DPS, on average, on a single target (raids, grinding). Parsing reveals this. A comparison between Warlock and Wizard spells provides the blunt explanation. Warlocks get a DOT which does some 3250 damage total in about 8 seconds, with a recast of 18 seconds. The closest Wizard equivalent is a DOT which does about 1300 damage in about 4 seconds, with a recast of 20 seconds. Warlocks also get a nuke for about 1800 damage with a recast of 18 seconds. The Wizard counterpart to this is Ice Comet, which, with damage averaging 3000 and a recast of 45 seconds, simply doesn't compare. Those are the primary relevant comparisons.Warlocks do about 200 to 400+% more DPS on multiple targets, depending on the number of mobs in the group (raids, grinding). Parsing reveals this. Further comparisons reveal all. Wizard AEs are atrociously worthless, and have been ever since Scorching Pulse was nerfed. It is quite literally more efficient to stick with direct damage and pick mobs off piecemeal. But even had Scorching Pulse been left in its presumably overpowered state, it would still not hold a candle to Warlock AE supremacy. The DOT mentioned above, which does 3250 damage in 8 seconds with a recast of 18 seconds, is in fact an AE. And Warlocks also get to throw another 900 AE into the mix, for a total of over 4000 damage to every single mob in under 8 seconds, roughly every 20 seconds, just from two spells. For comparison, a Wizard's AE damage potential every 20 seconds would be about 500 per mob. That's the difference between being able to solo a group of L47s and causing a small flesh would on the same mobs.The Warlock also has Wizards beat for efficiency. Severely beat. Not only do those AEs use very little power for what they achieve, but Warlocks have the ability to convert the damage they cause into power for themselves. The closest Wizard equivalents are not only dramatically inferior in terms of power regeneration but they also have built-in stuns which render them worthless during combat.And now we get to soloing. Both classes have a spell which can, assuming no resists or other eventualities, freeze a whole group of mobs for a short period of time, allowing the Sorcerer to nuke until it wears off. Because of the AE supremacy outlined above, Warlocks can solo very high level encounters indeed. L47 is perfectly within the realm of feasibility; I have witnessed a Warlock do precisely that, group after group. But as anyone who plays a L50 Wizard would be quick to point out, a group of three L43s is about the Wizard's limit, because the only choice is to kill one at a time, and the freeze spell just doesn't hold long enough to enable the Wizard to handle more than a small handful of mobs.The bottom line: Is there a point to playing a Wizard over a Warlock? Is there a point to grouping with, or choosing for a raid, a Wizard over a Warlock? The point of these two classes is DPS. They both provide it, but one has such a DRAMATIC superiority over the other that the two classes are effectively separate archetypes.The fix: Wizards need an elemental AE dots / nukes of a power comparable to that of the Warlock spells "Devastation" (~3250 damage AE DOT over ~8 seconds) and "Nil Absolution" (900 damage AE). The Wizard spell "Ice Comet" needs to have its recast lowered to 32 seconds to become consistent in DPS with the Warlock's counterpart nuke.

[Sliverhammer]

Gar! Now I have to tell me Wizard he's a waste of space, thanks, I am rolling a Warlock when I get home. I hear what you're saying, the numbers seem obvious.Hopefully our Warlock counterparts will give the Wizard's a hand in voicing this disparity.

[Andalla]

With all due fairness, they did just do a MAJOR change to our DPS scale. Things like that always have unforseen effects, try to give them more than a couple days before you start crying foul. After all, I remember when there was no reason to be a warlock over a wizard in the early days of the game before warlocks got a little tweak...itll balance out, just relax, enjoy your nukage, and give the poor overworked Devs some time.

[Stavenh]

<DIV>can we drop this, wizard vs warlock? No one at Sony ever said wizards and warlocks should do equal DPS. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is making us look like the brats people think we are.</DIV>

[Asterra]

Not sure how to even reply to that. Re-read my post, perhaps. Both classes are meant to do DPS. One has overwhelming superiority in every facet of damage dealing you'd care to name. The other has no DPS advantages. It's not even an issue of both classes having strengths and weaknesses. Until they retune things, Wizards are superfluous.

[SeTSwi]

<DIV>warlock here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't see what the big fuss is.  Yes currently we are on the higher end of things, but we expect it to change.  The patch was obviously not tested propperly before released and the kinks have to be worked out.  Warlocks thus far have been severly limited in their comparison vs wizards.  At first our damage was not comprable, then our damage was only comprable up to low/mid thirties.  And even then, our main DD didn't do anything for HOs.  Now we're wound up higher than wizards in many/most (not all) scenarios.  But rare was the warlock that cried out as much as I hear wizards do now.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It'll be fixed</DIV>

[MiniMe102]

<DIV>eh. so what if its alot more. for a while wizards were the better in dps considerebly and there was no point in being warlock. but the true warlocks stuck through it, and look, they were rewarded. point is, even though both classes used to be gimped, wizards were still the stronger of the 2 [Removed for Content] lol for quite some time. i say share the spot light. theyve been playing a while as the weakest "caster dps" so let em have there moment of glory. im sure everything will balance out in a few patches. as long as i still do amazing dps, thats all that i care about. </DIV>

[Graffix_75]

I can understand how some people may be upset that Warlocks are outdamaging us but the main point is that <b>we</b> did get a DPS boost, a generous one I might add. As prev posters mentioned, before this patch, Warlocks have been somewhat the inferior of the 2 mage types and I dont recall seeing many (not as many as us) posts about not being comparable to Wizards. The constant rant abt being outdamaged by Warlocks at the mo isnt going to get SOE to address the issue any quicker but rather make us look like cry babies IMO.Just be happy that we got a big DPS increase <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by Graffix_75 on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:40 AM</span>

[Splatterpunk28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Asterra wrote:<BR><BR>In a nutshell: Warlocks do about 30% more DPS, on average, on a single target (raids, grinding). Parsing reveals this. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Can we see the parsings, plz?  What you've posted is contrary to everything I've read on the forums in relations to wiz vs war.</P> <P>I'm not level 50, or I'd get the parsings myself, but from all the threads I've read, because warlocks get their best nuke at level 37 and everything thereafter is sub-par to wizards minus AoE's, wizards are supposedly the be-all upper 40's thru 50.  AoE spells are rare to use when solo'ing, and usually resisted in raid encounters.  Wizard dots are superior and they get more higher level nukes.  From about 30-43ish, warlocks have an upper hand and then it turns around.  </P> <P>This is based on what I've read, so I'm just curious to see parsings so maybe someone will shed some factual information, otherwise it just sounds like everyone whinning all the time, regardless of truth.</P> <P>I want it to be balanced, but I'm not gonna scream nerf to anyone without first hand experience or a load of data to backup claims.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Splatterpunk28 on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:09 AM</span>

[Darien al'Staff]

<DIV>Staven, I've been right up with you...until this.  If it was only a few points of damage, I could care less.  Up until I see these numbers, I have cared less.  <BR><BR><BR>But reality?  This much of a disparity between the classes is, well, rediculous.  <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>We should NEVER stop being whiny [FAAR-NERFED!]es.  Why?  It helps the devs learn more about the game.  Should we thank and give appreciation?  Yes.  But should we ever just shut up when, fact is, there are still maaannnyyy things left to fix?</DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Graffix_75 wrote:<BR>I can understand how some people may be upset that Warlocks are outdamaging us but the main point is that <B>we</B> did get a DPS boost, a generous one I might add. As prev posters mentioned, before this patch, Warlocks have been somewhat the inferior of the 2 mage types and I dont recall seeing many (not as many as us) posts about not being comparable to Wizards. The constant rant abt being outdamaged by Warlocks at the mo isnt going to get SOE to address the issue any quicker but rather make us look like cry babies IMO.<BR><BR>Just be happy that we got a big DPS increase <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <P>Message Edited by Graffix_75 on <SPAN class=date_text>02-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:40 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Why did we ask for higher dps? Because we wanted to solo? No! We wanted to be useful in high level groups. There are still far more high level wizards than warlocks, so we dont see a big problem now. However, if this isnt changed, more and more people will play a warlock instead of a wizard. We will start to lose our dps job in groups again -  just like before the patch, people liked scouts/monks to be their groups' damage dealers, not us wizards. Yes, I'm happy with our dps increase, but balance is always needed. There's no reason for one of two very similar classes to have significant higher dps than the other one.

[Graffix_75]

Im aware that there still needs balancing, all Im saying is that I dont think constant complaining is going to get them to address the issue faster. All we can do is wait, so far SOE have been addressing a lot of the game issues, just give it time.<p>Message Edited by Graffix_75 on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:34 AM</span>

[Devious Po]

<DIV>i put what i had to say about it somewhere in here: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=28334&page=2" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=28334&page=2</A></DIV>

[Graffix_75]

I think the reason Wizards are more vocal is because by SOE's definition, we pick a Wizard because someone who is able to "inflict startling devastation upon their enemies", would (using logic as well) outdamage someone that "uses poison and disease to inflict great pain and suffering upon their opponents". But as I said before, all we can do is wait and enjoy our increased DPS. If this was intended, Im sure we'll hear about it soon.

[Splatterpunk28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Graffix_75 wrote:<BR>I think the reason Wizards are more vocal is because by SOE's definition, we pick a Wizard because someone who is able to "inflict startling devastation upon their enemies", would (using logic as well) outdamage someone that "uses poison and disease to inflict great pain and suffering upon their opponents". <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hopefully not too off-topic here, but what?!  The official quotes are:</P> <P>Wizard:  "Wizards are masters of arcane arts who tap into the elemental powers of fire and ice.  Wielding these powerful forces, wizards can inflict startling devastation upon their enemies."</P> <P>Warlock:  "Warlocks manipulate the destructive forces of poison and disease to obliterate their foes.  They are masters of death and decay who deal devastating damage and pain to their opponents."</P> <P>The way you twisted those "SOE's definitions" to substantiate some logic that wizards should out dps warlocks only goes to show you why people are hesitant to take anything said on these forums seriously, especially without hard data.  </P><p>Message Edited by Splatterpunk28 on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:45 AM</span>

[Graffix_75]

Hey, Im just trying to find a reason why Wizards are more vocal about doing damage. Im not one of them (or try not to be), if Im not happy about something, I'll complain as well but I wont over do it. So far this hasnt left a bad taste in my mouth that I need to complain abt it. My wife plays a warlock and am happy for both classes to get the increase. As for the description Im quoting from my game manual, as follows for warlocks,"Warlocks maniplulate poison and diesease to attack their foes, inflicting great pain and suffering upon their opponents without remorse"If someone was new to EQ2 and want to start a character to do HUGE magic Damage, and after reading SOE's description, what class do you think they are going to pick? I would think more people read manuals rather than checking the a companies websites when they buy a new game. Unless they changed the decription of the manuals now.

[Malead]

<blockquote><hr>Graffix_75 wrote:Im aware that there still needs balancing, all Im saying is that I dont think constant complaining is going to get them to address the issue faster. All we can do is wait, so far SOE have been addressing a lot of the game issues, just give it time.<p>Message Edited by Graffix_75 on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:34 AM</span><hr></blockquote>How is SOE suppose to address the issues if no one states them? There's nothing wrong with voicing a valid concern in a mature manner.

[Woodmanse]

<DIV>A very good post, and its spot on for the most part..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like other people said, a few key things we must remember..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. All wizards and warlocks <EM>are</EM> and <EM>should</EM> be happy with the last patch.</DIV> <DIV>2. Warlocks sucked compared to wizards untill now. Its their time to shine (for awhile)</DIV> <DIV>3. Its a new patch and things can change from day to day.</DIV> <DIV>4. If people pick warlocks over wizards - this might not do much for your levels, but it will help with the type of friends you meet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is lots of other little things like... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards have higher maigc hits (dosnt count for much but its cool to see your name on the highest magic hit list).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Depart - warlocks dont get this.. Big plus for the wizard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buffs - From what ive seen and can make out, wizards buffs are better. Can anyone raise int like us?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again im not 100% sure but I think we can feed group members power, better than a warlock.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway just my two cents.. Good post, well thought out and written. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Thoo]

Edit: [Removed Post]<p>Message Edited by Thooor on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:40 AM</span>

[Stavenh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darien al'Staff wrote:<BR> <DIV>We should NEVER stop being whiny [FAAR-NERFED!]es.  Why?  It helps the devs learn more about the game.  Should we thank and give appreciation?  Yes.  But should we ever just shut up when, fact is, there are still maaannnyyy things left to fix?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm all for speaking up when there is an issue. But is warlocks having more DPS an issue? Wizards and warlocks are meant to be the highest DPS in the game. Well, we are. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's like conjurers saying thier DPS should be equal to wizards/warlocks. Most of us feel that while they should have high DPS, under the structure Sony has set up, thier DPS should fall under wizards/warlocks. Not all classes are meant to be equal point for point.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>I'm sorry, the old arguments about desirablity just don't hold water. The old, who would take a wizard over a warlock isn't really true. There aren't so many warlocks out there that you can't swing a dead toad without hitting one. I've just never seen it happen, I've never been dumped for a warlock, I've never been told No thanks, we want a warlock when answering a shout for a DPS class.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Warlocks having more DPS does't hurt us, really.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>If you became a wizard to do massive damage, well, you do now, don't you?</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Stavenham on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:51 AM</span>

[Megloman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR> <DIV>I'm all for speaking up when there is an issue. But is warlocks having more DPS an issue? Wizards and warlocks are meant to be the highest DPS in the game. Well, we are. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's like conjurers saying thier DPS should be equal to wizards/warlocks. Most of us feel that while they should have high DPS, under the structure Sony has set up, thier DPS should fall under wizards/warlocks. Not all classes are meant to be equal point for point.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>I'm sorry, the old arguments about desirablity just don't hold water. The old, who would take a wizard over a warlock isn't really true. There aren't so many warlocks out there that you can't swing a dead toad without hitting one. I've just never seen it happen, I've never been dumped for a warlock, I've never been told No thanks, we want a warlock when answering a shout for a DPS class.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Warlocks having more DPS does't hurt us, really.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>If you became a wizard to do massive damage, well, you do now, don't you?</FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Stavenham on <SPAN class=date_text>02-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:51 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That seems to be a somewhat strange arguement to me, Wizard / Warlock are from the same DPS mage class, so one would assume that they should have comparible DPS levels, be it that Warlocks are the AoE kings and Wizards the Single target for disparity or whatever SOE decides to give each sub class some uniqueness (I always assumed it was the mana return issue, meaning that Warlocks have longer sustained DPS than Wizards burst DPS). One would assume that they would be equally balanced so that both would be equally desireable a subclass to choose, depending on personal preferences.</P> <P>Concerning the desireability issue, yes, it's a non starter at the moment due to the numbers of Wizards to Warlock ratio, but I know of at least 3 wizards who are rerolling to warlocks, and being a sage who has supplied spells to a lot of casters on my server had a number of other tells from new characters who I have supplied in the past (too many names to remember unfortunately so no idea what there original classes were) asking for warlock app4's to stock up on for the future before I am too high level to bother making them anymore. Not a problem now, but if the information posted is accurate (and it is far too early to tell) and everything stays the same as it is now then 1 year down the line there are gonna be a lot of high level Warlocks floating around, and were all in this for the long term, right?</P> <P>Personally, I do believe that it is much too early to start moaning and attacking our fellow brethen, time / parsers etc will tell whether there is such disparity or whether there are better cycles etc that bring both classes to the same level and in reality they are balanced (at different lvl ranges, which is fine), as mentioned I am far too low level to know. Both our classes should just enjoy our improved power and SoE will hopefully sort the matter out when there databases are full of post patch data.</P> <P>I would be slightly worried though if this information is accurate to the point when only a fool or a roleplayer would choose the wizard subclass over the warlock when given the choice, it should be a tough decision with pro's and con's on each side, not a given.</P>

[Stavenh]

Quote: One would assume that they would be equally balanced so that both would be equally desireable a subclass to choose, depending on personal preferences.You can assume, yes, but assuming isn't the same as fact. I know lots of people that assumed this or that, only to be wrong about their assumtion.Unless Sony comes and says, yes, wizards should be higher then warlocks, I'm not going to assume that is how it meant to be. Untill they say, wizards and warlocks are meant to be equal, I'm not going to assume that is how it should be. If people want to reroll into warlocks, let them. All classes have ps and downs. I often find that people that reroll into another class because they are frustrated with thier current class, soon run into the issues the new class faces and become unhappy. There is no perfect class.

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR> <DIV>can we drop this, wizard vs warlock? No one at Sony ever said wizards and warlocks should do equal DPS. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is making us look like the brats people think we are.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually they did.</P> <P>This does need to be addressed.  Wizards and Warlocks play the same role in raids.  If one is clearly stronger than the other then one class becomes obsolete.  If we were talking about a slight difference then I can agree with the who cares attitude.  The problem is Warlocks can dish out significantly more dps than wizards.  I think they need to speed up the recast time on some of the Wizard spells and increase the damage.</P> <P>The intent was for both Wizards and Warlocks to be comparable DPS.  This has been stated by Moorgard.  Wizards are elemental and Warlocks are disease and poison based.   </P> <P>It is perfectly understandable that with such a huge change that some things have gotten out of whack.  The intent of the original poster is not a complaint, but to bring these issues to the surface.  If no one says anything and brings the facts to light, no one will ever do anything about it.  Hopefully these issues can be addressed in the next update.<BR></P>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stavenham wrote:<BR>Unless Sony comes and says, yes, wizards should be higher then warlocks, I'm not going to assume that is how it meant to be. Untill they say, wizards and warlocks are meant to be equal, I'm not going to assume that is how it should be. <BR><BR>If people want to reroll into warlocks, let them. All classes have ps and downs. I often find that people that reroll into another class because they are frustrated with thier current class, soon run into the issues the new class faces and become unhappy. There is no perfect class.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No one said Wizards should outdamage Warlocks.  They are supposed to be comparable dps classes.  This has been confirmed by Moorgard.  There have been disparities before (Wizards had outdamaged Warlocks for quite a few patches).  But with this recent change it has swung heavily in the opposite direction.  This is no good for anyone.  They need to equalize the damage for both classes.  Right now it looks like Warlocks were tuned up pretty nicely.  All they need to do is fix up a few Wizard spells and decrease a few timers and we should be ok.</DIV>

[Roaan]

No worries guys, let the Warlock's have the highest DPS and give us the porting LOL <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Victicu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> Asterra wrote:<BR><BR>In a nutshell: Warlocks do about 30% more DPS, on average, on a single target (raids, grinding). Parsing reveals this. <HR> <P></P> <P>for the love of god...show me these magical parses you have...pulling numbers out of the air is really lame...</P> <P> <HR> Asterra wrote:<BR> Warlocks also get a nuke for about 1800 damage with a recast of 18 seconds. The Wizard counterpart to this is Ice Comet, which, with damage averaging 3000 and a recast of 45 seconds, simply doesn't compare. <HR> <P></P> <P>That Warlock nuke is Nil Distortion...we get it al lvl 37...You get a spell called Ball of Flames at lvl 37...those 2 spells are the counterparts...your comparing a lvl 50 spell and a lvl 37 spell...</P> <P>lets look even closer...in the update notes...</P> <P>-Ball of Flame now has a cast time of 2 seconds and a recast time of 6 seconds.</P> <P>Nil Distortion reuse time is 18 secs</P> <P>correct me if im wrong but Ball of Flames does around 800 damage?</P> <P>you can cast about 3 Ball of Flames to my one Nil distortion...making the spell pretty much balanced...the wizard just has to work a little more than the warlock</P> <P><BR> </P> <HR> Asterra wrote: <P>Nil Absolution (900 damage AE) <HR> </P> <P>even more evidence that you have no idea what warlock spells can do<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <p>Message Edited by Victicus7 on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:15 AM</span>

[Stavenh]

Vic, question for you on the DD warlock spell, whats it's HO symbol? Cause I can use BoFire and BoFlames to advance or complete an HO. Just yesterday, did one where Ball of Fire did 600 damage, and the HO did 224. That's 824. Wizards have more spells for HOs the warlocks. So just wondering what HO symbol Dark Distortion is?I got hit with a level 37 mobs DD in Zek, 990 damage. I was impressed.

[Victicu]

<DIV>last patch they changed the Distortion line to Lightning Bolt symbol...was a very nice change for us indeed</DIV>

[Utar]

<DIV>There is currently only 1 lvl 50 warlock in my guild and he doesn't play all that much I can't really comment on if warlocks do more dmg or not at lvl 50 but I know at lvl 50 I can pull aggro of any tank if I want to so I don't really care to much if warlocks do more dmg, we do plenty enjoy it.:smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Fendaria]

I just don't get it.Why does it look like so many Warlocks are saying 'Suck it up Wizards, Warlocks were worse before so now you can see how it feels.'? Where is the logic in this? Do you honestly think this is how 'balance' is applied?As a wizard before the patch I knew both Warlocks and Wizards were greatly underpowered and we'd both get upgrades. I wasn't asking for 'just' Wizards to get an upgrade. I wasn't saying 'oppress the warlocks so only wizards are any good'. And I'm not saying now 'I wish Warlocks never got an upgrade they were fine before'. Everyone knew there were issues for both classes.Are Warlocks not wanting us to bring up the issue cause they are afraid the result will be having their DPS 'nerfed' down to the Wizard level?Seriously I have always thought Warlocks and Wizards were in the same boat and should be a lot more friendly. We are both the weakest nuke primary class in the game. In the end we'd be basically equal classes except primarily for some mobs where the poison/disease vrs elemental issue made a difference. Why all the hostility?And to address the issue of why it seems like we are whining about this? Cause it is the only thing we can do to get the issue addressed. If we didn't six months would go by and nothing would change. I'm not willing to let six months go by.Does any of this mean we didn't like and greatly appreciate the patch? Heck no. I loved it and am glad it was made. But there are still issues. Don't yell at people for pointing them out.Finally, long ago I had to decide about which path to take, Warlock vrs Wizard. All I had for a known fact was the spell descriptions. Overall the list showed that Wizards had a nuke and Warlocks had a nuke + effect. The general consensous I read on boards back then seemed to be Wizard nukes hit a little harder while Warlocks can nuke a little longer given the same power pool. At the end they are both the same. At then end of the day I wasn't sure what the actual difference would be but I believe and strongly still believe it would (and should) be minor.The difference today isn't minor.The good news is issues really seem to be being resolved much faster in EQ2 than they ever were in EQ. This gives me hope.Fendaria

[DeathKnight]

<blockquote><hr>Roaan wrote:No worries guys, let the Warlock's have the highest DPS and give us the porting LOL <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>I'd love to be able to port between place A and place B, although we get evac at 38 i would still love a regular port spell.

[WaachBack]

<DIV>I see that you failed to mention the good points about wizard and the bad points about warlocks.</DIV> <DIV>I would take your evac anyday over some DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, thanks for asking SEO to nerf you warlock cousins...</DIV>

[Supafroi]

<DIV>IVe grouped with a few Warlocks post patch while using a dps parsser. I was outdamage every round and normally I outdamage everyone in my group by 20dps(only because I work hard at doing it). I was using 70% mana a fight and he was using around 40%. He was one lvl higher than me, I was 32 at the time and just finally hit 33.</DIV>

[TheC]

<DIV>WHO CARES!?.....Seriously.</DIV>

[WaachBack]

<DIV>Obviously ALOT of people care, look around....</DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <P> <P></P> <P>That Warlock nuke is Nil Distortion...we get it al lvl 37...You get a spell called Ball of Flames at lvl 37...those 2 spells are the counterparts...your comparing a lvl 50 spell and a lvl 37 spell...</P> <P>lets look even closer...in the update notes...</P> <P>-Ball of Flame now has a cast time of 2 seconds and a recast time of 6 seconds.</P> <P>Nil Distortion reuse time is 18 secs</P> <P>correct me if im wrong but Ball of Flames does around 800 damage?</P> <P>you can cast about 3 Ball of Flames to my one Nil distortion...making the spell pretty much balanced...the wizard just has to work a little more than the warlock</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>that is 180*3=540 mana cost in about 20 sec... no thx!</DIV>

[Kaz]

There are several posts like this one floating around claiming many number of things, unfortunately not ONE of them has a single post showing actual logs to substantiate some of the wild claims. Forgive me if I don't take them at face value but I was kidnapped by Superman as a child while feeding Candycorn to Captain Kangaroo's herd of genetically altered mini-deer that lived in his left shoe. Since then I've had trust issues. No really, it happened, and I have pics but I'm not showing you. ;P

[Alfred75]

Comparable damage between wizards and warlocks simply means that considering all possible scenarios, wizards and warlocks have possibilities of out-damaging each other, but on the overall, damage is close (e.g. damage per power, or even damage per sec). I see rubbish posts with rubbish claims of wizards underperforming against warlocks, with awful descriptions of warlock spell damage etc that sometimes send me laughing my torso off. But sadly, there are always there rash and dumb readers who believe everything they see, and start posting against warlocks - sigh.I am just glad the warlock community is generally more matured and rational. No public outroar from us warlocks when we were underperforming against wizards before patch. Post patch, we are pretty much on par, but there must be some joker stirring up some nonsense - its just disheartening.

[Devious Po]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaziq wrote:<BR>There are several posts like this one floating around claiming many number of things, unfortunately not ONE of them has a single post showing actual logs to substantiate some of the wild claims. Forgive me if I don't take them at face value but I was kidnapped by Superman as a child while feeding Candycorn to Captain Kangaroo's herd of genetically altered mini-deer that lived in his left shoe. Since then I've had trust issues. <BR><BR>No really, it happened, and I have pics but I'm not showing you. ;P<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>well me showing you the parses does nothing for my class.   the forumns are meant to discuss issues, so hopefully the developers maybe do their testing.   i have listed the concerns i have, and still have nothing to prove to you!!!!!!   if a dev, gm, or the god almighty himself would like to contact me, then let them do it by means of a pm.  if such thing happens, maybe i'll dig up the factual data i know to be true.   until that happens, i will kindly gest for you to go fly a kite.</FONT></DIV>

[Kalin Lazare]

Alfred, I agree with your statement that the warlock community is generally more mature.This is of cousre because Wizards are far more numerous, and the more you have of a given thing, the higher the probablility that some of it will be... flawed. lol...At any rate, I think I speak for a lot of the posters here when I say that this is a young game and many kinks are still being worked out. There are broad implications that can occur with each patch, some contribute to balance and some take away from it. However, I also think it's good that we bring this to the devs' attention through threads like this. That is a good thing.All in all I am very happy for Warlocks because of how much they've had to struggle thus far, I'm sure things will balance out eventually though. Hopefully this means making a few additional tweaks to wizards to bring them up to speed, rather than nerfing warlocks down to the current dps of wizards. But I'd be lying if I said I knew that much about it, I've been too busy watching in awe as solo mobs simply keel over. 43 wizzy here.

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WaachBack wrote:<BR> <DIV>I see that you failed to mention the good points about wizard and the bad points about warlocks.</DIV> <DIV>I would take your evac anyday over some DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, thanks for asking SEO to nerf you warlock cousins...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Our evac is more a convenience than functional.  Scouts evac takes 3 seconds to cast and be be cast while on the run and can't be interupted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No one is asking for Warlocks to be nerfed.  Quite the contrary.  I still think both classes need to do more dps.  If you pull up the numbers you will see that we are still pretty [FAAR-NERFED!] close in dps to berzerkers and behind against bruisers and monks.  We have next to no armor and equipment upgrades barely help us.  Our dps deserves to be significantly higher than the other classes to make up for this.  This patch was a major improvement over what we had before, but they still have a ways to go before they get it right.</DIV>

[Kaz]

<blockquote><hr>Devious Polo wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Kaziq wrote:<BR>There are several posts like this one floating around claiming many number of things, unfortunately not ONE of them has a single post showing actual logs to substantiate some of the wild claims. Forgive me if I don't take them at face value but I was kidnapped by Superman as a child while feeding Candycorn to Captain Kangaroo's herd of genetically altered mini-deer that lived in his left shoe. Since then I've had trust issues. <BR><BR>No really, it happened, and I have pics but I'm not showing you. ;P<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>well me showing you the parses does nothing for my class. the forumns are meant to discuss issues, so hopefully the developers maybe do their testing. i have listed the concerns i have, and still have nothing to prove to you!!!!!! if a dev, gm, or the god almighty himself would like to contact me, then let them do it by means of a pm. if such thing happens, maybe i'll dig up the factual data i know to be true. until that happens, i will kindly gest for you to go fly a kite.</FONT></DIV><hr></blockquote>If only that were true, you've been arguing with just about anyone who will give you a shred of attention in several threads pertaining to this. Here's a suggestion for you. Get your arguements in order, decide the order of importance and provide real data to back them up. I'll be flying my kite while you decide that would be too much effort and go on to write your novel.

[Orgingrind]

<DIV>First off, wizard avg. dps have increased by about 150... which is higher than most other classes ever could do.   </DIV> <DIV>The big difference i can see between wizards and warlocks as a person outside looking in (as i am a dirge) is that one is good for single targets, and the other is good for multiple targets.  One is good for short fights, the other is good for long fights. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards get Ice comet which is 45 sec recast and 3 sec cast, which does roughly 3k damage. </DIV> <DIV>Warlocks get 1800 in 3 sec, with 18 sec recast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Looking at this you'd innitially think, wow, wizards losing to the dps of a warlock... Which is a pretty stupid assumption.  most xp fights of single mobs last about 30 - 40 seconds (if that).  So the only way a warlock is going to be able to pump out 2 of his "big nuke" is if he casts the moment the tank engages or shortly there after, which will result in warlock gaining aggro and more than likely, dying.  If fights are lasting longer than 40 seconds, with a wizard or a warlock... then something is definetly wrong.  Keep in mind, wizards can blast out about 750 damage every 8 - 9 seconds, with minimal aggro.  Single targets wizards at lvl 50, are putting up 250 - 300dps consistantly, whereas a lvl 50 warlock would  be hardpressed to match that number. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group mobs, this is the warlock party time.  They simply are better for AoE mobs, as the lvl 50 spells alone would indicate, 2 lvl 50 aoe's??... haha, doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that they are going to be better than most in this department.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just my take on things from what i can see</DIV>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Orgingrinder wrote:<BR> <DIV>First off, wizard avg. dps have increased by about 150... which is higher than most other classes ever could do.   </DIV> <DIV>The big difference i can see between wizards and warlocks as a person outside looking in (as i am a dirge) is that one is good for single targets, and the other is good for multiple targets.  One is good for short fights, the other is good for long fights. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards get Ice comet which is 45 sec recast and 3 sec cast, which does roughly 3k damage. </DIV> <DIV>Warlocks get 1800 in 3 sec, with 18 sec recast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Your forgetting about the Warlock 50 spell Devastation.  It dishes out 500 damage + 500 damage a tick for 4 seconds for around 2500 damage AND it's an AE that will affect up to 5 targets all with a recast time of 18 seconds.   Against a single target this is better DPS than Ice Comet (over 40 seconds.)  Against multiple targets this is WAY more DPS than anything a wizard could do even if they cut the recast timers on all the other Wizard AE spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ice Comet looks good on paper and has a big wow factor but in practice a 45 second recast allows it to be used in every other encounter and if it gets resisted your dps just took a serious hit.  Then there is the issue that many raid mobs are totally immune to it.</DIV><p>Message Edited by killzone on <span class=date_text>02-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:37 AM</span>

[tyessak]

<DIV>true but if u are a warlock. and u raid post 50 u see raid encounter after raid encounter that if not immune to poison ruduces our nukes to almost nothing except for sapping salvo while wizzards land hit after hit</DIV>

[WaachBack]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> killzone wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WaachBack wrote:<BR> <DIV>I see that you failed to mention the good points about wizard and the bad points about warlocks.</DIV> <DIV>I would take your evac anyday over some DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, thanks for asking SEO to nerf you warlock cousins...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Our evac is more a convenience than functional.  Scouts evac takes 3 seconds to cast and be be cast while on the run and can't be interupted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No one is asking for Warlocks to be nerfed.  Quite the contrary.  I still think both classes need to do more dps.  If you pull up the numbers you will see that we are still pretty [FAAR-NERFED!] close in dps to berzerkers and behind against bruisers and monks.  We have next to no armor and equipment upgrades barely help us.  Our dps deserves to be significantly higher than the other classes to make up for this.  This patch was a major improvement over what we had before, but they still have a ways to go before they get it right.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>IMO it is *very* functional. My gf is a lvl 38 Wiz and we find that this spell is *very* usefull. It does also save us alot of time...Again just my opinion, I would still take this over some dps...</DIV>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tyessak47 wrote:<BR> <DIV>true but if u are a warlock. and u raid post 50 u see raid encounter after raid encounter that if not immune to poison ruduces our nukes to almost nothing except for sapping salvo while wizzards land hit after hit</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The last raid mob I did was totally immune to cold.

[Grimme]

<DIV>"It's a mat.. with conclusions on it.. that you can jump to."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless we have actual parsed damage, which verifies any of this, it's all speculation. There is enough complexity in the question that I don't think it can be answered easily, even with parsed data (which we don't have).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Orgingrind]

<DIV>I've played with 2 different wizards since damage increase, both were doing well over 200 dps and on some encounters broke 300.  Wouldn't mind hearing back from some parsed damage on warlocks for single mob encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Orgingrinder</DIV>

[Fepp]

Even if someone does post some logs that really won’t mean much.If someone wants to close this article once and for all then you need to turn to maths. Write a good walk through of a battle showing all your working, all the ranges of damage a spell might do, averages, recast times, cast times, debuffs and affect, the full thing. Maybe use logs for some of the data, but not for drawing conclusions - that just serves to prove what the DPS was in that battle(s).I would love to do this if I could at work but all I want to do when I have time spare at home is play the game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Sorano]

<DIV> <DIV>Ok DPS on 43-45^^ mobs in CT looks on average like this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>41 Wizard (me) 100</DIV> <DIV>42 Monk (MT) 97 </DIV> <DIV>39 Swashy 90</DIV> <DIV>37 Monk 88</DIV> <DIV>42 Mystic 55</DIV> <DIV>41 Enchanter 50</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spell order for me goes like this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.Icy Coil  2sec/15sec  200 +50x6</DIV> <DIV>2.Immolation 4sec/20sec  200+250x4</DIV> <DIV>3.Piercing Icicles 2sec/15sec 200 +50x6</DIV> <DIV>4.BoTT 2sec/4sec  250</DIV> <DIV>5.BoFL  2sec/6sec  700</DIV> <DIV>6.WIS   3sec/12sec 600</DIV> <DIV>7.BoFL 2sec/6sec 700</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By that stage the mob would be dead. Of course this is best case scenario and doesn't take into account any resists etc. If I overnuked I drew aggro, but my DPS is barely better than the tank's. This patch certainly improved our dps, but it in no way makes us overpowered, which is what people assume we now are because they read the 300% increase in dps figure in the patch notes. We really need to start posting hard data from logs to show people what our dps actually looks like in context now, so that scouts especially stop crying about how they are now useless.     </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the whole wizzy/warlcok thing, if it is indeed that unbalanced then I would expect SOE to adjust wizzy dps up to match a warlock's. As Killzone said, this patch has definitely gone in the right direction in fixing us, but it certainly hasn't solved all the problems. I personally don't think a 3dps difference between me and a tank is enough of a tradeoff for my low AC and hps, but I am happy with the current changes and will patiently wait for further ones in the future.</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Sorano on <span class=date_text>02-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:49 PM</span>

[Graffix_75]

This is a moot issue if no one is willing to show some hard data for high level Wiz/War. Altho I dont understand why Warlocks are more on the hostile front on this topic instead of trying to help/get data if in fact they are outdamaging Wizards by a lot. If I recall, when both classes were underpowered, I believe Wizards complained for both classes and not just for ourselves. I've seen derogatory comments (mainly about us being crybabies <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) about Wizards in the Warlock forums but I dont think I've seen any that stuff here about Warlocks.If the unhappy Wizards want the devs/SOE to address this issue, wouldnt it be more effective actually showing some hard data? Devious, I understand you have nothing to prove to anyone on the boards, I agree but if SOE intended this, wouldnt you have to prove something to them? This of course, is under the assumption that no one has already addressed this to the devs (dev feedback, etc).As I said, this hasnt bothered me yet, mainly bcos Im lvl 32 and am really happy with the DPS upgrade, however, if Im no where near as an effective damage dealer in higher levels as a Warlock, that's obviously a concern. I dont really see power pumping as a main role for raids any fun for eg. Since our primary role is upfront damage.Just out of curiosity, at level 32, solo blue/white con orcs in Zek, I average maybe 100-110 DPS, less if i dont debuff, more if I use HO's - this is just a rough estimate, so it's not an accurate number. What about a similar level Warlock?My wife has started playing the other game more and more, so I think I'll start playing her Warlock for a while, just for a comparison <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Devious Po]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Graffix_75 wrote:<BR><BR> Devious, I understand you have nothing to prove to anyone on the boards, I agree but if SOE intended this, wouldnt you have to prove something to them? This of course, is under the assumption that no one has already addressed this to the devs (dev feedback, etc).<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>aye mate, and i play for fun, but if soe/eq2 wants me to provide them with data, they can pay me for it.  i believe there are professional testers out there, and i'm not saying i wouldn't mind being one of them.  until that happens, i'll throw my voice out there, and hopefully the people that get paid to play, can get their info to the devs, so they can fix issues.  the reverse is, they could try and contact me and maybe i'll try and help out as best as possible.  i love eq2, and only see it getting bigger and better.   i just hope things move in the right direction.   </DIV>

[Draw4wi]

<DIV>At lvl 50 wizard here are the spells on my hot bar</DIV> <DIV>Piercing Icicle  300dd 100DoT tick (6tickover 24sec)</DIV> <DIV>Icy Coil             200dd   70DoT tick (6tick over 24sec)</DIV> <DIV>Immolation       400dd 350DoT tick (3tick over 4.5sec) 20sec recast, 4 cast </DIV> <DIV>BoFlames        750dd      6sec recast, 2 cast</DIV> <DIV>Ice spear          700dd      12sec recast, 3cast (training choice, if not chosen its BoF which is a 600dd)</DIV> <DIV>Ice comet        3000dd     45sec recast, 3 cast</DIV> <DIV>BoTT                 250dd      4sec recast, 2 cast</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My numbers might be a little off on the recast since I cant remember them off my head but thats the best i can remember them, also for dmg I took basically the high end of average hits to try and be fair with numbers.  This is basically my order for casting spells on mobs, altho ice comet isnt always used if I not confident in the tank , and BoTT only gets casted if theres no other spells up and all DoTs are on.  That being said can a lvl 50 warlock post what their hotbar looks like at 50 and we can compare numbers from their.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sorano wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>Ok DPS on 43-45^^ mobs in CT looks on average like this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>41 Wizard (me) 100</DIV> <DIV>42 Monk (MT) 97 </DIV> <DIV>39 Swashy 90</DIV> <DIV>37 Monk 88</DIV> <DIV>42 Mystic 55</DIV> <DIV>41 Enchanter 50</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That is pretty much in line with what I'm seeing at 50 (although the dps is higher for all).  Basically I'm just slightly above the dps of a Berzerker or Monk.  Sure the last patch boosted us up quite a bit, but it still doesn't make up for the fact that we don't get weapon upgrades that help our damage and we have to wear cloth armor.  There has to be a good tradeoff for this.  Level 45 tanks can solo things that I can't even solo at 50.  That in and of itself doesn't bother me, but at least make our damage stand out against the other classes.</P> <P>To all those asking for logs, why don't you look at your own logs?  If you aren't a Wiz or Warlock or don't group with one then I'm not sure why you would be arguing one side or the other in this debate (not that there is much to debate the numbers speak for themselves.)<BR></P>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>one quick thing that you forgot original poster you will get somehting that warlocks wont or at least shoudlnt - TELEPORTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>wizard ring anyone??? theres one in almost EVERY [Removed for Content] ZONE- work with me people- im a bruiser what do i know...</DIV>

[Drizh]

<DIV>Didn't read all the posts so if I go over something again sorry :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not level 50 either so cant really go to far on this, but I did see someone said we didnt get the extra DPS because we wanted to solo...well thats quite untrue alot of the warlocks and wizards out there DO want to solo, btw those snares and evac are what balance you out in the DPS field. BOTH classes should stop complaining, we're honestly still easily outdamaged by a good swashbuckler or Brigand (Dont have the parse logs on hand) but I was getting out damaged probally 2-1 (Yes I was trying hard too) the other night by a brigand. Besides, wizard gets other utilities that are awsome, but hell, guess those never count? Just raw damage? More to a character then the punch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--------------------------------</DIV> <DIV>Lucan D'Lere</DIV> <DIV>Warlock 31</DIV> <DIV>Prov 37</DIV> <DIV><--Wants to solo effectively</DIV> <DIV><--- Doesnt want to kill 16000 Antelope or Turtles to Level</DIV> <DIV><---- Wants a reason to renew his subscription</DIV> <DIV><--- And lastly, is sick of getting trounced by gray mobs</DIV><p>Message Edited by Drizhal on <span class=date_text>02-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:07 AM</span>

[XenosAll]

<DIV>Snare sucks, warlocks get fear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Evac, 8 classes get evac.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You get more power regen and power taps... thus you can nuke longer and should logically nuke for less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do not try to state that warlocks are supposed to have higher dps then wizards, especially when wizards say they should be equal and actually have a much better case for doing more damage, it just makes you sound like an [FAAR-NERFED!].</DIV>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>SageMarrow wrote:<DIV>one quick thing that you forgot original poster you will get somehting that warlocks wont or at least shoudlnt - TELEPORTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>wizard ring anyone??? theres one in almost EVERY [Removed for Content] ZONE- work with me people- im a bruiser what do i know...</DIV><hr></blockquote>The wizard spires you see in almost every zone have been destroyed when Luclin the moon was. The power that allowed them to work came from the moon, and so, is gone.Now, I remember reading all I could about EQ2 before it came out, so new porting as we new it was gone. What they said they would have in place are points throught out the world that allow you to attune to the place, and then port. I've not seen anything like that, so I guess they changed thier mind and decided horses would be the way to get around quickly.

[tyessak]

<DIV>the luclin moon was  where the spires/wizards got their power to port...????   check your facts i was porting  in eq1 years before luclin  expansion ever came out</DIV>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>tyessak47 wrote:<DIV>the luclin moon was  where the spires/wizards got their power to port...????   check your facts i was porting  in eq1 years before luclin  expansion ever came out</DIV><hr></blockquote>You go check your facts. Sure there was porting before hand. I didn't change the lore, the people that made the game did. And that was how they justified taking porting out of the game.

[Alfred75]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> XenosAllus wrote:<BR> <DIV>Snare sucks, warlocks get fear.</DIV> <DIV>Evac, 8 classes get evac.</DIV> <DIV>You get more power regen and power taps... thus you can nuke longer and should logically nuke for less.</DIV> <DIV>Do not try to state that warlocks are supposed to have higher dps then wizards, especially when wizards say they should be equal and actually have a much better case for doing more damage, it just makes you sound like an [FAAR-NERFED!].</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Fear is bugged. Mobs will either run completely out of range and break the encounter, or they will run around their spot and still be able to attack while in state of ear.<BR><BR>8 classes get evac - are you comparing wizards to warlock here, or are you comparing wizards to the rest of the world? You are starting to sound stupid.<BR><BR>As much as I know, we have only 2 lines of power taps - Dark Pillaging (ridiculous recast time = casting once or most twice in fights) and xxx Distortion (which is really more of a reduction in spell power cost). So thats Warlocks get more power regen and power taps....<BR><BR>It does not make sense since we have only 2 lines of power taps, that we can nuke longer and should logically nuke for less ===> this comment set me laughing for quite a bit <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>/shrugs, who said warlocks should do more damage then wizards? errr, which wizards said that they should do more damage than warlocks? <BR><BR>**Edit:  play nice - FW**<p>Message Edited by Faarwolf on <span class=date_text>02-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:32 PM</span>

[Alfred75]

<blockquote><BR><BR>**Edit: play nice - FW**<p>Message Edited by Faarwolf on <span class=date_text>02-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:32 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Roger <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Fepp]

<blockquote><hr>tyessak47 wrote:<DIV>the luclin moon was where the spires/wizards got their power to port...???? check your facts i was porting in eq1 years before luclin expansion ever came out</DIV><hr></blockquote>I never played EQ1 and dont know much about the lore so I am just guessing...But in terms of lore did the moon come into existance when you could get to it with the expansion, or was it up in the sky before then?

[WaachBack]

<DIV>*</DIV><p>Message Edited by WaachBack on <span class=date_text>02-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:06 AM</span>

[WaachBack]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> XenosAllus wrote:<BR> <DIV>Snare sucks, warlocks get fear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Evac, 8 classes get evac.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You get more power regen and power taps... thus you can nuke longer and should logically nuke for less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do not try to state that warlocks are supposed to have higher dps then wizards, especially when wizards say they should be equal and actually have a much better case for doing more damage, it just makes you sound like an [FAAR-NERFED!].</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Aww..... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Cry me a river.... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[killzo]

<DIV>I really don't understand the reaction of most people in this thread.  Are all the Warlocks that keep trying to defend the dps disparity going to want Wizards to have the same attitude after some other patch that tips the disparity in the other direction?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think Wizards and Warlocks need to stand together on this and start working on the numbers to present the case for increasing both our classes DPS such that we really are the damage dealers we are supposed to be.  A couple of points above the melee classes in dps does not make us highly sought after for groups and I'm not talking about against easy no arrow mobs that we can take down in 2 hits.  I still remember back around level 25 or so it would take about three times as long to take a ^^mob down if I as a Wizard didn't participate in the combat.  Sadly this is not the case even after they increased our damage.  If you replace a Wizard/Warlock with a Fighter or Scout the group can take things down just as fast and with less risk (no members wearing paper armor.)</DIV>

[Fepp]

<blockquote><hr>killzone wrote:<DIV>I really don't understand the reaction of most people in this thread. Are all the Warlocks that keep trying to defend the dps disparity going to want Wizards to have the same attitude after some other patch that tips the disparity in the other direction?<hr></blockquote>I dont think the average Warlock will hold any ill will or try to keep the Wizards down. I think most warlocks are just questioning the original post, after all there are 3 pages about the original post and nobody has properly confirmed the findings.The original post was about DPS. Until someone with access to Warlock stats compares them to what Draw4wild posted this thread is going nowhere. No point comparing other skills and stuff till we see there is actually a difference in DPS... then you can feel free to agrue about "we have the same DPS, so who rules the group buffs!"

[Dorh]

<DIV>Im often grouping with my brother. He is a warlock and me a wizard. His dmg is way over mine. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You also forgotten to specify a few advantages warlocks have over wizards:</DIV> <DIV>1) Fear (app IV) is really powerfull and we use it more than root as it lasts longer than my adept III root...</DIV> <DIV>2) Casting time under level 37 is faster for a warlock. My brother has time to do 1500dmg in 4 sec while I barely has enough time to throw a ball of fire and let say a freeze (4 sec too to cast) that does at best 750dmg...</DIV> <DIV>3) He kill orange easy all the time or creatures like enraged/deadly even orange without a scratch. My root break quickly and resist rate is high. I dont even try to kill them anymore</DIV> <DIV>4) There is a bug that teleport mobs straigh on me while they are rooted, its quite deadly as you must tank them or reroot, interrupt risk is HIGH and when it happens Im often waiting for my recast timer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>etc... etc... etc...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, Im sinceraly disapointed about my subclass. I mean Ive chosen a wizard because in MMORPG culture, its suppose to deal best DD. Its about the same as chosing a paladin if you want best defense abilities. Ive chosen wrong and lost a few months of gameplay.</DIV>

[Flachett]

<DIV>who cares who does more damage right now? Personally I feel with the way resists are now we should have the potential to at least double what we are doing right now. We dont have many hp's, we dont have alot more power than tanks our own level, we wear paper armor, our roots suck, increased resists...... What was done was a step in the right direction but as the parse logs posted earlier in this thread describe if a tank aprox the same level is matching a war/wiz dps then something is wrong. So why [FAAR-NERFED!] who does more when its quite obvious neither do enough. btw where in this entire thread is there one parse log that show dps of a warlock and wizard of comparable levels? ummmmm no where </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Flachette1 on <span class=date_text>02-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:44 PM</span>

[WaachBack]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dorhum wrote:<BR> <DIV>Im often grouping with my brother. He is a warlock and me a wizard. His dmg is way over mine. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You also forgotten to specify a few advantages warlocks have over wizards:</DIV> <DIV>1) Fear (app IV) is really powerfull and we use it more than root as it lasts longer than my adept III root...</DIV> <DIV>2) Casting time under level 37 is faster for a warlock. My brother has time to do 1500dmg in 4 sec while I barely has enough time to throw a ball of fire and let say a freeze (4 sec too to cast) that does at best 750dmg...</DIV> <DIV>3) He kill orange easy all the time or creatures like enraged/deadly even orange without a scratch. My root break quickly and resist rate is high. I dont even try to kill them anymore</DIV> <DIV>4) There is a bug that teleport mobs straigh on me while they are rooted, its quite deadly as you must tank them or reroot, interrupt risk is HIGH and when it happens Im often waiting for my recast timer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>etc... etc... etc...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, Im sinceraly disapointed about my subclass. I mean Ive chosen a wizard because in MMORPG culture, its suppose to deal best DD. Its about the same as chosing a paladin if you want best defense abilities. Ive chosen wrong and lost a few months of gameplay.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Again people fail to mention the good points about Wizards.... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Draw4wi]

<DIV>Since no warlocks want to post what their lvl 50 hotbar looks like I'll try to figure it out myself</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Devastation 500dd 4 tick 500DoT recast 18 sec</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats all, with that one spell you can do 5000dmg to a single mob in 2 casts and have reuse timer halfway to the third cast before our ice comet refreshes, and to be honest the fact that its DoT makes it a little safer than ice comet since its not 3000dmg in once cast, and eventhough its AE its still your best single target nuke too</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets say theres a group of 4 mobs(and yes theres plenty of groups of 4 to xp on) you can do 2500x4 per cast or 10000dmg, lets say the fight ends right after you 2nd cast of it and you cast nothing else on the mob you do about 20000dmg in 30seconds(yes only 30sec since you only wait one recast timer for 2 casts of it and I added in cast time and DoT time) or 666dps with that one spell, then you still have you 1500dmg big nuke with an 18sec recast too</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like to solo writs on underbrush fiends all day in feerrott, yes they are gray mobs but still, fiends have about 2400hitpoints give or take, I as a 50 wizard love being able to take a solo one and kill it in one hit then wait 45sec and do it again,  a 50 warlock can cast cast devastation on the group of 5 of them and 4.5 sec later kill them all doing 10000dmg, thats over 2000dps, and yes argue all you want but this is very easy to recreate not a fluke, remember when berzerkers has rampage on a short timer, remember what happened to them, well looks like warlocks are gonna be in same boat soon</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now wizzys dps is great imo but warlocks do blow them out of the water</DIV>

[WaachBack]

<DIV>Ah well nice, once again, thanks for turning this into a wiz vs warlock thing. If I recall, when the game first came out, warlocks were under powered compared to wizards. .....you did notice that noone of us complained though right? hmmm.....</DIV>

[Draw4wi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WaachBack wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ah well nice, once again, thanks for turning this into a wiz vs warlock thing. If I recall, when the game first came out, warlocks were under powered compared to wizards. .....you did notice that noone of us complained though right? hmmm.....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>lol look at the title of the thread, no one turned it into a wiz vs. warlock thing, it was always a wiz vs. warlock thing, we should be comparative equals but we aren't atm, I wouldnt be on this thread if devastation was single target DoT with a 45 sec recast, that would make it equal to ice comet</P> <P>and warlocks did complain, just not that they were underpowered compared to wizzies(which they werent really), but that wizzies and warlocks were both underpowered compared to all</P> <P>Oh but heres a good point on wizzies, when ice comet kills mobs in one hit we acheive almost infinite dps, too bad 3 of the 4 new raids are immune to ice<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>And in your post you're clearly stating that wizzies are underpowered compared to warlocks now, kinda weird since we're equals, maybe if you posted any facts in this thread instead of just calling us crybabies we would be able to compare some stuff</P><p>Message Edited by Draw4wild on <span class=date_text>02-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 PM</span>

[Sorano]

<DIV>From test server notes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Devastation had its reuse timer adjusted to 45 seconds</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well they nerfed warlock damage. Not what I was hoping for. If anything I expected them to increase wizzy dmg, considering what parse logs show, comparing our dps to tank dps. But it does show that SOE are listening to everything we say, so hopefully they will keep adjusting dps whenever it needs looking into.</DIV>

[Devious Po]

<DIV>i hope warlocks don't get nerfed, i would believe ice comet every 28-30 seconds be a better fix(thru that out off the top of my head)  i just want similiar balance for each class.  let warlocks be aoe machines, let wizzie be the single target master, and let's get our game on.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>resists on greys are stupid, specially after 4 debuffs, and i think both classes could have our cast times toned down alittle bit.  oh and i wish all our dots, hit like icy coil and piercing icles, but they don't right now.  *shrug*</DIV>

[Fendaria]

<blockquote><hr>Sorano wrote:<DIV>From test server notes:</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Devastation had its reuse timer adjusted to 45 seconds</DIV><hr></blockquote>That is really really weak. Warlocks weren't doing to much, Wizards were still doing to little.They did this and then have the gaul to leave Brusier/Monk/Zerker damage alone.And here I was starting to hope they had a clue.Fendaria

[WaachBack]

<DIV>Well, thanks again to everyone who complained about us....kinda knew this would come... <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Trith]

<DIV>Ok, theres a lot of BS and a lot of quality posts under this thread.  This is just another BS one added by myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What the hell do you warlocks expect?  If you are top dog dps (which you clearly are and dont defend and say your not). You are the target for whining.  </DIV> <DIV>If theres  a patch next week and Furies are now top DPS,   were all gonna whine about them.   If wizards are clearly top dps,  they you will all whine about us.  Dont deny it, be a man (or woman in some cases) and suck it up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find it abosultley hilarious that some warlocks here are like "well i average 200 dps (realistic) but im not overpowered becasuse you have depart......and I dont."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you find yourself downplaying your character or your class.....ask yourself why.  Because you see the valid point the other person is attempting to make.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Who freeking cares about this crap now.....thsi game is just showing the tip of the iceberg right now....SOE has YEARS to smooth it out. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anybody can be a complainer.....if you want to be productive, why dont you make an INTELLIGENT post and actually recommend a proposed change?  Be constructive, not destuctive.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Think solutions, not problems and you just may go somewhere with it. Just maybe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>Vladek</DIV> <DIV>47 Wizard</DIV> <DIV>Sinister Circle</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV>

[Splatterpunk28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Devious Polo wrote:<BR> <DIV>i hope warlocks don't get nerfed, let warlocks be aoe machines, let wizzie be the single target master, and let's get our game on.   </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Looks like they are getting nerfed.  Warlocks won't be aoe machines, but wizzies will remain the single target master.</P> <P>I *could* be naive and say that I'm glad the devs are balancing the two classes out, but with such a huge in your face dps disparity with brawlers, I realize that it probably will not fix the balancing issues between warlock and wizards.  I honestly doubt there was much research in to the matter to be honest.</P> <P>I guess, once my wizard and warlock are both 50 I'll do a write up on dps comparisons and how each compares in different situations (since apparently no one else is providing that information).   </P> <P>From what I hear in game, looking at spells and what I've read, looks like wizards are the preferred sorceror in nearly every situation now that warlocks aoe superiority will be taken away.  Sounds balanced enough on the wizard forums anyway, eh?<BR></P>

[Irol]

Hey,I'm glad that they give us better DPS, but I don't think we should worry about Warlocks DPS over ours. I'm a lvl 43 wizzy and Immolation is the DOT we now have with the new patch that does at adept 1: 229-382 Initial damage with a 4.5 second dot that does 233-389 damage every 1.5 seconds. I'm happy with this DOT. Before it wasn't even a DOT, it was like a replacement for BoT. Now the nukes: Ball of Flames at Apprentice 4: 503-755 Recast 6 seconds, Ball of Fire Adept 1: 405-607. Now I really like how they took the links between nukes out and how much more damage we do, BUT dot's are a different story. Once you get into higher lvls you get the Immolation DOT which is nice, but up until then I've been dealing with dot's that do about 40-70 dmg ever 15 or 20 seconds... which kind of sucks. But if you look at the definition of Wizzy's and Warlocks we aren't supposed to have obliterating DOTs. It's startling damage we do, not damage over time. If you want a character with good DOT spells be a necro, from what I understand that's what a majority of their spells are. Overall I don't care if a Warlock does more damage to me, because at my level I've never really grouped with one and when I did it was back before the patch. I say to SOE thanks for the new amount of damage we do, grats to the warlocks. Another msg to SOE though..... STOP THE SPEED NERFS... that is all =D~Irolas~

[MistressClaud]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Splatterpunk28 wrote:<BR><BR> <P>From what I hear in game, looking at spells and what I've read, looks like wizards are the preferred sorceror in nearly every situation now that warlocks aoe superiority will be taken away.  Sounds balanced enough on the wizard forums anyway, eh?<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I don't think that will be true. Maybe in the situation where the group needs to evac and no one else can do it, otherwise I think it is now just balanced.</DIV><p>Message Edited by MistressClaudia on <span class=date_text>02-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:12 PM</span>

[Violator]

I guess this is all endgame (48-50). Maybe it will all balance out, but the mid and up lvls Warlock do quite a bit more damage the Wizards, with seemgly less power. Their spells do more damage, with quicker refresh and cast times up to Ball of Fire, at least that is what i gather. And fear seems to work MUCH better then our roots. Not wanting the bat swung anywhere, and I am agianst the Destruction refresh change. It's lvl 50, you should be uber at lvl 50.

[Victicu]

<DIV>after patch warlocks will still have the best AE arsenal</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>no one chain casted Devastation every 18 secs anyways, unless they casted absolutly no other DD spell in between Devastation casts, then maybe it would be possible, but you would have lower DPS overall</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>after patch, aggro control will be much easier, and soloing will be a tad slower</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i would like to see ice comet lowered to 18 sec recast, then watch a wiz try to chain cast it on a raid mob, i think you would understand what i mean....large recast times only make playing wiz/warlock, "dumber", as i will be able to  cast devastaion every 45 sec and not worry about aggro too much...as before i had to be careful and time my nukes, making sure not to over aggro, which was fun and challenging to me.</DIV>

[Yorc]

I think there are a lot of good points in this thread that get lost amist the whining. Basically I suspect it all boils down to flavor. Sure the warlocks at level 50 have a higer dps, big deal. Supposedly they are taking that out in the next patch.I group with warlocks that out damage me all the time. So what. I've grouped with tanks that outdamage me all the time. If some twit wants to not let me in a pick up group because their statlyzer says I don't have enough dps for them then I don't want that group anyway. I group with friends and guildies almost exclusively and find this is the only way to play.What makes me sick about the wizard section is how much people whine here. I suspect groups won't want wizards because wizards are such whiners more than an issue over dps. Me I just enjoy playing and don't have dps envy.

[Trith]

<DIV>What makes me sick about the wizard section is how much people whine here. I suspect groups won't want wizards because wizards are such whiners more than an issue over dps. Me I just enjoy playing and don't have dps envy</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you kidding me?  If you have no desire for dps............WHY ARE YOU A WIZARD?  If you truley do not desire dps the reroll ot somethin else because you shoudnt play the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] class.  Go make a necro or summoner or some other non fighter crap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vladek</DIV> <DIV>47 Wizard</DIV> <DIV>Sinister Circle</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV>

[MistressClaud]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you kidding me?  If you have no desire for dps............WHY ARE YOU A WIZARD?  If you truley do not desire dps the reroll ot somethin else because you shoudnt play the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] class.  Go make a necro or summoner or some other non fighter crap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vladek</DIV> <DIV>47 Wizard</DIV> <DIV>Sinister Circle</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That is not what he is trying to say. He meant that he is not crazy over DPS that it would make a big difference if it were boosted a little bit, nor does he envy a warlock for their high DPS for the time being. He just enjoys playing his character.<BR>

[Yorc]

<blockquote><hr>Trithon wrote:<DIV</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Are you kidding me? If you have no desire for dps............WHY ARE YOU A WIZARD? If you truley do not desire dps the reroll ot somethin else because you shoudnt play the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] class. Go make a necro or summoner or some other non fighter crap.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Vladek</DIV><DIV>47 Wizard</DIV><DIV>Sinister Circle</DIV><DIV>Najena</DIV><hr></blockquote>Reread what I wrote. I enjoy playing my wizard and love the boost in dps we have been given. However I am not going to WHINE because Warlocks who had more broken spells on launch than we did have a higher dps right now. No where did I say that I didn't want dps. This forum disappoints me because most of the wizards seem to complain more than anything else.

[Balbaro]

<DIV>Hello everyone ,  i was passing by checking the wizard message boards and we see alot of people arguing about wizs/warlocks has to be same damage or some same ratio, both class are worthy dps kings in my book. Wizards saying ice comet is not great compared to the aoe spells the warlock have, well i can only respond like this...  My 50 Wizard is on Kilticor server hes named Ragnor and i was lucky enough to have my Ice comet master spell drop :smileysurprised: i still remember the day i got it at lvl 42 in feerott, with my Ice comet i do 3800-4528 with one cast, that kind of burst damage is just sick if stack up immolation ball of flames dots etc... i drop double arrows mobs hp by 35-40% just with one cast of Ice comet , i wish i had a picture to prove it but u can check the highest magical damage on kilticor server and im the top dog :smileyvery-happy: that only for the nukin area , another thing we are loved to is for our power battery spells , this ability is really incredible the number of time i helped healers and main tank when they were oom agaist real ruff encouter epic mobs which make YOU (the wizard) the hero of the day.. yes warlocks get aoe drain mana but if u dont want to attract attention while feeding others its better to drain yourself hehe they only need to fix Truss root spell since its rather broken :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  As it of now the wizard for me is far more desirable than a warlock so wizards dont despair we rules!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                   Ragnor, </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                           lvl 50 Wizard </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                             Kilticor Server </DIV>

[WaachBack]

<DIV>Finally, a positive post, thank you.</DIV>

[Asterra]

The focus of the thread is meant to be DPS at level 50 versus raid content, as well as soloability. At this stage, I feel certain that any high-end guild that is honest with its evaluations has determined just which class is truly more useful to bring to raids, clearings, grinds or similar miscellaney, and any level 50 Wizard or Warlock must similarly be very well aware just how ridiculous the difference in soloability is between the two classes. It's not a slight advantage. It's more like Wizards can solo better than a few other classes but Warlocks can solo better than ALL other classes. And I repeat: The impending nerf will have no effect on the soloability differences between the two classes; it's a mild hotfix for raid DPS disparity which worsens the issue because many non-Mage classes were STILL out-DPSing Sorcerers in many raids, and it won't adequately shorten the gap between Wizard and Warlock DPS in any event.The solutions have already been mentioned by lots of people because they are so easy to intuit. Leave Warlocks alone. FIX Wizard AEs; they are currently UTTERLY worthless and could be painlessly converted into the elemental counterparts to Warlock AEs such as Devastation. Lastly, do something to the Wizard root spells to make them as reliable and powerful as the Warlock fear. And there you go. Two classes with similar DPS and similar soloability, equal but opposite. Warlocks would STILL be the superior class because of their power drain / tap abilities, superior power buff, etc. but everyone would in general be a lot happier.

[WaachBack]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Asterra wrote:<BR>The focus of the thread is meant to be DPS at level 50 versus raid content, as well as soloability. At this stage, I feel certain that any high-end guild that is honest with its evaluations has determined just which class is truly more useful to bring to raids, clearings, grinds or similar miscellaney, and any level 50 Wizard or Warlock must similarly be very well aware just how ridiculous the difference in soloability is between the two classes. It's not a slight advantage. It's more like Wizards can solo better than a few other classes but Warlocks can solo better than ALL other classes. And I repeat: The impending nerf will have no effect on the soloability differences between the two classes; it's a mild hotfix for raid DPS disparity which worsens the issue because many non-Mage classes were STILL out-DPSing Sorcerers in many raids, and it won't adequately shorten the gap between Wizard and Warlock DPS in any event.<BR><BR>The solutions have already been mentioned by lots of people because they are so easy to intuit. Leave Warlocks alone. FIX Wizard AEs; they are currently UTTERLY worthless and could be painlessly converted into the elemental counterparts to Warlock AEs such as Devastation. Lastly, do something to the Wizard root spells to make them as reliable and powerful as the Warlock fear. And there you go. Two classes with similar DPS and similar soloability, equal but opposite. Warlocks would STILL be the superior class because of their power drain / tap abilities, superior power buff, etc. but everyone would in general be a lot happier.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>oh ya also, dont forget to give us evac. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV>

[Devious Po]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balbaroth wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hello everyone ,  i was passing by checking the wizard message boards and we see alot of people arguing about wizs/warlocks has to be same damage or some same ratio, both class are worthy dps kings in my book. Wizards saying ice comet is not great compared to the aoe spells the warlock have, well i can only respond like this...  My 50 Wizard is on Kilticor server hes named Ragnor and i was lucky enough to have my Ice comet master spell drop :smileysurprised: i still remember the day i got it at lvl 42 in feerott, <FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>with my Ice comet i do 3800-4528 with one cast,</FONT> that kind of burst damage is just sick if stack up immolation ball of flames dots etc... i drop double arrows mobs hp by 35-40% just with one cast of Ice comet , i wish i had a picture to prove it but u can check the highest magical damage on kilticor server and im the top dog :smileyvery-happy: that only for the nukin area , another thing we are loved to is for our power battery spells , this ability is really incredible the number of time i helped healers and main tank when they were oom agaist real ruff encouter epic mobs which make YOU (the wizard) the hero of the day.. yes warlocks get aoe drain mana but if u dont want to attract attention while feeding others its better to drain yourself hehe they only need to fix Truss root spell since its rather broken :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  As it of now the wizard for me is far more desirable than a warlock so wizards dont despair we rules!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                   Ragnor, </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                           lvl 50 Wizard </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                             Kilticor Server </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>not to be a skeptic, but will you please post a screen shot of the spell, while examined.   i'm trying to believe you, however it is some what tuff because the min damage on the master is higher than the max on adept 3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if this is truly the case, that is frickin awesome man and gratz!!!!</DIV>

[Splatterpunk28]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Devious Polo wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>not to be a skeptic, but will you please post a screen shot of the spell, while examined.   i'm trying to believe you, however it is some what tuff because the min damage on the master is higher than the max on adept 3.</P> <P>if this is truly the case, that is frickin awesome man and gratz!!!!<BR></P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That is very funny considering your reaction to warlocks asking for proof in this thread.</P> <P>In any case, here's the proof:</P> <P><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player_srankings_detailed.vm?serverId=106&action=CharacterAgg.getByRankServer&rank=magicHitRankServer&type=HighestMagicalHit" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player_srankings_detailed.vm?serverId=106&action=CharacterAgg.getByRankServer&rank=magicHitRankServer&type=HighestMagicalHit</A></P><p>Message Edited by Splatterpunk28 on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:08 AM</span>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balbaroth wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hello everyone ,  i was passing by checking the wizard message boards and we see alot of people arguing about wizs/warlocks has to be same damage or some same ratio, both class are worthy dps kings in my book. Wizards saying ice comet is not great compared to the aoe spells the warlock have, well i can only respond like this...  My 50 Wizard is on Kilticor server hes named Ragnor and i was lucky enough to have my Ice comet master spell drop :smileysurprised: i still remember the day i got it at lvl 42 in feerott, with my Ice comet i do 3800-4528 with one cast, that kind of burst damage is just sick if stack up immolation ball of flames dots etc... i drop double arrows mobs hp by 35-40% just with one cast of Ice comet , i wish i had a picture to prove it but u can check the highest magical damage on kilticor server and im the top dog :smileyvery-happy: that only for the nukin area , another thing we are loved to is for our power battery spells , this ability is really incredible the number of time i helped healers and main tank when they were oom agaist real ruff encouter epic mobs which make YOU (the wizard) the hero of the day.. yes warlocks get aoe drain mana but if u dont want to attract attention while feeding others its better to drain yourself hehe they only need to fix Truss root spell since its rather broken :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  As it of now the wizard for me is far more desirable than a warlock so wizards dont despair we rules!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                   Ragnor, </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                           lvl 50 Wizard </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                             Kilticor Server </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Don't count on an Ice Comet master dropping anytime soon though.  For one thing only epic mobs drop level 50 adepts now and the chance of an ice comet master dropping are slim to none.  I'd be curious to know how many have dropped worldwide.  I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than 5.

[killzo]

<DIV>dbl post</DIV><p>Message Edited by killzone on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:46 AM</span>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Devious Polo wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balbaroth wrote:<BR> <DIV>...  My 50 Wizard is on Kilticor server hes named Ragnor and i was lucky enough to have my Ice comet master spell drop :smileysurprised: i still remember the day i got it at lvl 42 in feerott, <FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>with my Ice comet i do 3800-4528 with one cast,</FONT> that kind of burst damage is just sick if stack up immolation ball of flames dots etc... i drop double arrows mobs hp by 35-40% just with one cast of Ice comet , i wish i had a picture to prove it but u can check the highest magical damage on kilticor server and im the top dog :smileyvery-happy: that only for </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                   Ragnor, </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                           lvl 50 Wizard </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                             Kilticor Server </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>not to be a skeptic, but will you please post a screen shot of the spell, while examined.   i'm trying to believe you, however it is some what tuff because the min damage on the master is higher than the max on adept 3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if this is truly the case, that is frickin awesome man and gratz!!!!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I was thinking the same thing.  Adept 3 has damage of 2992-3657.  That seems like a huge increase for only 2 quality levels of improvement.  Even going from App 1 to adept 3 wasn't that big a jump.    But yeah if that really is the damage then that is pretty nice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just a little update on this.  I looked at the worldwide magic damage ranking and went through most (but not all) of those between 3657 and 4528 and they where all Assasins except for Ragnor.  This leads me to believe that only 1 Ice Comet master has dropped worldwide.  Not trying to be a downer, but don't expect to get one anytime soon.</DIV><p>Message Edited by killzone on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:56 AM</span>

[Balbaro]

<DIV>hey guys</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>             Ragnor here, to clarify yes i seem to be the only wiz that got master 1 ice comet and yes damage differance between adept 3 and master is enournous , my friend in my guild is a lvl 50 wiz and was shocked hehe, having that spell make me feel what i always wander to be : a nasty nuker <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> i got to say nothing beat the feeling of seeing that spell in the masta chest, i almost fainted. and whats make me more excited is this spell is lvl 50 i mean in future expansions it will continue to grow in power with the increase of lvls surely <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> as far as seeing it drop another time from epic encounter now , my guild killed about 20 encouter the last week and we only had one master spell that dropped so i assume they gonna be [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] rare too. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>         One thing for sure differance between adept 3 and master 1 is enourmous so get your masters !  </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                                          Ragnor</DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                                50 Wizard Kilticor Server</DIV>

[Weekst]

<DIV><U><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=4938" target=_blank><FONT color=#ffffcc>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=4938</FONT></A></U><A href="http://eq2warlock.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=8" target=_blank><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Back in January Moorgard posted on this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My only concern is why assassin uba damage is not on melee highest hits and is instead in highest magic damage, from eq2players.com. Even though an assassins ability is a skill it should still register as melee damage and not magic damage. Highest magic damage should be from pure caster classes imo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arioch</DIV> <DIV>27 Warlock </DIV> <DIV>Freeport - Mistmoore</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.clanhellfire.com" target=_blank><FONT color=#ffcc66>www.clanhellfire.com</FONT></A></DIV><p>Message Edited by Weekster on <span class=date_text>03-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:09 AM</span>

[EvinRay]

<DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>I hope this does get fixed, it's embarassing when people use THAT nasty little program that shows everyones damage and you're only just above the metal-clad tank. Not to mention that scouts do almost double our dps *cringe*. I'm L42 atm and can't get my damage over 703- a warlock friend can go to 1800 with that Nil Absolution, and she's only L45. Do stats (intelligence?) make a difference perhaps, or are we just the weakest dps class- when we should be the strongest, next to our warlock brothers??? What else do we have going for us, all we can wear are pygamas, only do very very minor physical damage (23-48ish here) and die in 2-3 hits from any mob tht's not gray. Even then I've had my behind kicked, thank you wasp of darkness ><</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff33>~Love Mila</FONT></DIV>

[BlazTink]

<DIV>Yes, it's been talked about over and over again. It's a well-established fact by now that Warlocks outdamage Wizards by a wide margin. It doesn't look like the developers care.</DIV>

[Keitho]

<DIV>*cough* Utility vs. Damage *cough* You guys arent that far behind in DPS for having so many utilities. Also noticed with higher levels the DPS doesnt seem to be so far off. It pretty much levels off at lvl 50.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Keithoth on <span class=date_text>03-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:54 PM</span>

[Asterra]

Not quite. The recent Gulch fiasco (people could kill the same mob over and over for extraordinary loot, until it was finally fixed) gave people all the opportunity they needed to determine DPS at level 50. Because the mob wasn't particularly dangerous, both classes had the unique opportunity to nuke with total abandon, while slows and the occasional heal took care of the rest. Warlocks generally did about 60 dps more than Wizards (210 vs 280 on average), and we are talking about a single target - NOT multiple targets where Warlocks really shine. It is however worth noting that 280 DPS is respectable and generally fits the bill that Mage DPS is supposed to, for all that it demands that the Mage tank the mob. If Wizard AEs were to be granted power on par with Warlock AEs, much of the disparity would be reduced. It amuses me quite a bit that the devs changed the icon for one of the AEs but totally failed to even notice that two of the AEs do the same damage with the same debuffs and the same cast time and the same recast time and even the same recast chain - and for all that, they are still 100% inferior to direct damage.

[Echothunder]

When you break it down it appears rather basic to me.Wizards get bigger Boom per cast , Warlocks do more damage given time to recast and let their dots work.This works out to 4 Wizards in a group with a tank and a healer fighting one mob can kill it just as fast if not faster then 4 Warlocks in a group with a tank and a healer. Lets appreciate the fact that Wizys get "Bragging Rites" to havin the biggest boom.None of this accounts for the Fire/Ice Dis... etc differences. An Epic mob with high resists to one type of magic or the other warrents the need for both classes. IMHO

[Stone Rhino]

<DIV>Maybe, maybe not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Played with a 44 Warlock tonight in PF. I am/was a 47 Wiz. His Distortion is Adept 3, so is my BoFlames. I´m 47. His Distortion hit on the named we fought there with at least 1k, normal was well near 1300, while the highest hit was each fight at least 1400. My best with BoF was very low 900. After i casted all of the 3 DoT/Debuffs on the Mob. Most of the times it´s high 700-low 800. Needless to say he outdps´ed me in every fight. Since we had a 49 Pal we could go out and that´s what i did with my Adept 1/3´s. Mostly it was only 10-20 DPS, but some times even up to high 40´s disparity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now i know this supposed to be about Ice Comet and his "awesome" hitting, but mind the question how should i have "bragging" rights about highest damage when a -3lvl War totally outnuked me? I mean he said fully debuffed he scores 2k with Distortion! I have yet to see my BoF hit for even 1k!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry but somehow i´m a bit disappointed, somehow.</DIV>

[Nuvi]

<DIV>i read this thread before i picked wizard over warlock,classes will get balanced from time 2 time,so this isnt the end of the world,and when and if wizard spires will become useble this will be a nice advantage for us wizards,im sure SOE knowns the damage dif betwen the 2 classes and will balance it out eventualy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Seth]

<DIV>When i bought this game i wanted to be a caster, then going through the manual i saw you could be a warlock. I was hooked. I have only used the one character since day one and dont use any alts. My friend was saying no no be a wizard they will be much cooler but he didnt sway me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I made the right choice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lvl 34 warlock, najena.</DIV>

[Keitho]

<DIV>Can  a lv 50 Wizard explain to me all the utilities you have. I know as a warlock I get 2 debuffs and 1 mana dump. All being copy past from the lower Tier. I work with Rumil lv 50 Wizard in raids. He is the major debuffer and when needed he goes all out of dumping mana. Wizard/warlock I've noticed are a great team. </DIV>

[Keitho]

<DIV>Can  a lv 50 Wizard explain to me all the utilities you have. I know as a warlock I get 2 debuffs and 1 mana dump. All being copy past from the lower Tier. I work with Rumil lv 50 Wizard in raids. He is the major debuffer and when needed he goes all out of dumping mana. Wizard/warlock I've noticed are a great team. </DIV>

[Fendaria]

<blockquote><hr>Echothunder wrote:>Wizards get bigger Boom per cast , Warlocks do more damage given time to recast and let their dots work.<hr></blockquote>This happens at ONE level in the game. 50.Fendaria

[BlazTink]

<blockquote><hr>Fendaria wrote:<blockquote><hr>Echothunder wrote:>Wizards get bigger Boom per cast , Warlocks do more damage given time to recast and let their dots work.<hr></blockquote>This happens at ONE level in the game. 50.Fendaria<hr></blockquote>Well said, by the time we get a Big nuke that impresses people and makes us wanted in Xp groups...we can't Xp any longer.

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Echothunder wrote:<BR>When you break it down it appears rather basic to me.<BR><BR>Wizards get bigger Boom per cast , Warlocks do more damage given time to recast and let their dots work.<BR><BR>This works out to 4 Wizards in a group with a tank and a healer fighting one mob can kill it just as fast if not faster then 4 Warlocks in a group with a tank and a healer. Lets appreciate the fact that Wizys get "Bragging Rites" to havin the biggest boom.<BR><BR>None of this accounts for the Fire/Ice Dis... etc differences. An Epic mob with high resists to one type of magic or the other warrents the need for both classes. IMHO<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Nope, Wizards don't get a bigger boom per cast - except for Ice Comet - but that's not till level 50.</P> <P>As far as raid mobs go, I don't know of any that are totally resistant to poison or disease, but there are quite a few that are totally immune to Ice Comet.</P> <P>I would not be surprised if the developers were clueless to the damage differential between the two classes.  Fiery pulse at level 49 is supposed to be an uprage to scorching pulse, but they screwed that up and made it an exact copy of the level 44 Inferno - right down to the damage and power.  If that doesn't show you that they clearly don't play the class then I don't know what will.  Likewise Paralyze at 44 replaces a level 27 spell.  Yet the level 27 spell (both at adept 1) does MORE damage and has a cast time of 2 seconds.</P> <P>As far as utility is concerned, both classes get power transfers, and Warlocks get some group power regen buffs.  About the only thing Wizards get which warlocks don't is evac and I don't use it all that much since scout evac is 3 second cast and can't be interupted.</P>

[Fendaria]

<blockquote><hr>killzone wrote:<P>About the only thing Wizards get which warlocks don't is evac and I don't use it all that much since scout evac is 3 second cast and can't be interupted.</P><hr></blockquote>Scout evac is also gained earlier than Wizards (25 vrs our 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, scouts can move while it is 'casting' which is a big deal (does anything feel as nice as seeing a scout yell evac and watching him right next to you before it pops off?), and finally scouts can take the hits so they will be alive when the evac finally goes off.If your group really needs evac you get a scout.Fendaria

[Lady Uaelr]

<DIV><FONT face=Garamond size=4>This is all true and very depressing. Do you really think SOE is going to do anything about this. They do not make any commenst anywhere and at Level 39 I am getting depressed.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond size=4>I wonder why the developers can't get this balance issue straight with Wizzard and Warlocks. If both are counterparts they should be equally effective or at least close.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond size=4>Is there an area on the boards where the developers are class sepcific and discuss issues or future plans of that clas?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond size=4>What can we do to make sure they are aware of these issues. Warlocks -- <FONT color=#ff33cc><STRONG>SHOULD NOT GET NERFED.</STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Garamond size=4>I am happy that Warlocks are doing well and it should stay that way. SOE just needs to get wizzards up to par.</FONT> </DIV>

[Keitho]

<DIV>If they give wizards more damage SOE needs to either: take away some of your utilities or give us warlocks some. Once you get as much damage as us. Whats our point?</DIV>

[Fendaria]

<blockquote><hr>Keithoth wrote:<DIV>If they give wizards more damage SOE needs to either: take away some of your utilities or give us warlocks some. Once you get as much damage as us. Whats our point?</DIV><hr></blockquote>Sigh. More references to this 'mystical' utility Wizards are supposed to have. Maybe I can buy a map that will lead me to this wonderland of utility I supposedly possess.Fendaria

[papabear0]

<DIV>__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>If they give wizards more damage SOE needs to either: take away some of your utilities or give us warlocks some. Once you get as much damage as us. Whats our point?</DIV> <P></P> <DIV> <P>Soulbringer -<BR>49 Warlock -<BR>Chaotic Legion -<BR>Nektulos</P></DIV></DIV> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___</P> <P> </P> <P>what utilities are you talking about? can you be more specific? we have evac and ?</P><p>Message Edited by papabear005 on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:03 AM</span>

[killzo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Keithoth wrote:<BR> <DIV>If they give wizards more damage SOE needs to either: take away some of your utilities or give us warlocks some. Once you get as much damage as us. Whats our point?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>What utility do you think Wizards have that is so good?  Our resist buffs aren't all that great, no one fills a spot with a Wizard for evac ....  The only useful utility that a Wizard has are the power transfers, but Warlocks have that too.</P> <P>I've done a little parsing over the last few days and noticed somethng a little surprising.  I was grouped with a conjurer and a few scouts.  What I noticed was that if Ice Comet (adept 3)  was up and didn't get resisted, I came out on top on the dps by a nice margin  (around 6000 total damage).  Without Ice Comet the summoner was very close to my damage and if Immolation(adept 3) got resisted he would beat me out.  His pet was (level 37 adept 1 pet I believe) was doing around 2200 points of damage on average against level 50^^ mobs when my Ice Comet was up, and around 3000 on average when it was down.  Thats some pretty good damage.  He outdamaged the scouts almost every time as well.</P> <P>As far as a comparison to Warlocks goes, without Ice Comet, Wizard damage is mediocre.  Fortunatly for me, I was 50 before the Wizard changes went in, but I gotta feel bad for all those Wizards without it.  If you look at the  patch message for the Feb 17th patch you will see that Warlocks got more mid level improvements than Wizards.  One of my friends who has a 38 Warlock pumps out more damage than me at 50 if I don't use Ice Comet.  This is due to some 9 second recast spell (I don't remember which one) that pumps out 1400 a pop.</P> <P>Another thing worth mentioning is that according to the patch notes, Immolation was supposed to be a 3 second cast 21 second recast, but it really has a 4 second cast 20 second recast.</P> <P>At this point in time I think both classes need to be looked at again.  Wizards and Warlocks are supposed to be roughly equals when it comes to dps.  A few points here or there won't make that much of a difference but there seems to be a big disparity from around 30-49.  At 50 the Wizard will do more damage against a single target and Warlocks will do more against multiple targets.</P> <P><EM><FONT color=#0066ff>- Wizard changes:<BR></FONT>   - Breath of the Tyrant and Immolation no longer share the same reuse timer.<BR>   - Ball of Flames and Ball of Fire no longer share the same reuse timer.<BR>   - Piercing Icicles and Icy Coil no longer share the same reuse timer.<BR>   - Ball of Flame now has a cast time of 2 seconds and a recast time of 6 seconds.<BR>   - Burning Intimidation now does 4 times its previous amount of damage.<BR>   - Immolation now deals 2 additional ticks of heat damage at 120% of the initial instant damage. The cast time has been increased to 3 seconds and the recast time is now 21 seconds.<BR>   - Ice Comet's damage has been increased 275%, and its reuse time is now 45 seconds.<BR>   - Freeze and Daenor's Lingering Frost now do 3 times their previous amount of damage.<BR>   - Icy Coil's initial instant damage has been increased 350%.<BR>   - Piercing Icicles now deals 200% additional instant piercing damage.</EM></P> <P><EM><BR><FONT color=#0066ff>- Warlock changes:<BR></FONT>   - Negative Absolution no longer shares a reuse timer with Null Absolution or Nil Absolution, and the maximum number of targets has been limited to 5.<BR>   - Null Absolution no longer shares a reuse timer with Negative Absolution or Nil Absolution, and the maximum number of targets has been limited to 5. The spell now deals additional poison damage over time.<BR>   - Nil Absolution no longer shares a reuse timer with Negative Absolution or Null Absolution, and the maximum number of targets has been limited to 5. The spell now deals additional poison damage over time and lowers strength by 5.<BR>   - Dark Distortion no longer shares a reuse timer with Nil Distortion, and its damage has been increased to 150%.<BR>   - Nil Distortion no longer shares a reuse timer with Dark Distortion. Its damage has been increased to 240% and it has a reuse timer of 18 seconds.<BR>   - Flashfreeze now has a casting time of 1 second, and its damage has been tripled.<BR>   - Noxious Bolt now has a reuse time of 6.5 seconds, and its damage has been tripled.<BR>   - Dark Emanations no longer shares a reuse timer with Torment of Shadows.<BR>   - Torment of Shadows no longer shares a reuse timer with Dark Emanations. Its instant damage has been tripled, and its damage over time has doubled.<BR>   - Dark Nebula now does 3 times its previous damage. It is an upgrade to Grievous Blast, sharing a reuse timer with Grievous Blast and Putrid Cloud.<BR>   - Devastation will now affect up to 5 targets in a radius of 10 meters with a recast time of 45 seconds. Its instant damage and DoT effect has been reduced by 50%.<BR></P></EM>

[Victicu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> killzone wrote:</P> <P>his is due to some 9 second recast spell (I don't remember which one) that pumps out 1400 a pop. <HR> </P> <P>its called Nil Distortion, its 18 sec recast</P> <P>compared to your Ball of Flames with 6 sec recast...its close to being balanced</P> <P>1 resist on Nil Distortion really hurts, and the damage range is huge, it  goes from 1100-2100 damage... </P> <P>where as 3 casts of ball of flames will almost never be resisted 3 times in a row, and will give a much better average damage than Nil Distortion</P> <P>personally i would rather have one big nuke like Nil Distortion than have to cast Ball of Flames three times...the only downside is that warlock is really a snooze fest now...all i do is wait on recast timers. with devastation at 45 sec, Nil Dist. at 18 sec, and Dark Dist./Sapping Salvo at 9 sec...leaves alot of time inbetween casts.</P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Keitho]

<DIV>Working with Rumil hes told me thats he has more then my 2 debuffs. 2 mana dumps. Care to further exlpain all debuffs you have. Please lv 50 wizard explain, not a lv 25 that thinks he has all debuffs for the rest of his lvl life.</DIV>

[papabear0]

<DIV>piercing icicles - lvl 40 dot/ heat and cold debuff</DIV> <DIV>icy coil - lvl 29 dot/ debuff same as above</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>some say it stacks, some say it doesnt ( the debuff part of it).  i use em both anyway, doesnt hurt to cast both.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>essential intromission - lvl 47 hp->power @ app 1 its 79 hp -> 109 power</DIV> <DIV>fiery surge - lvl 46 power -> power @ adept 1 its 160power -> 283 power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>even if you upgrade to adept 3s, the numbers wont go sky high on these.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in realty, we have 1 debuff, 2 power heals.</DIV>

[Tabemo]

Yeah, my Ice Comet (app4) gets resisted a whole lot on raid mobs. For one, I've never gotten it to land on King Zalak, Vision of Vox, or Rognog Angler. It works on average 30% casts on Darathar for anywhere from 1300 - 2400. The groupx4s I've seen it land on more frequently are the drakota liutenants for deception quest and that hits on average about 70% of the time for mid to high 2000s. I sat out when we did Venekor, so I have yet to try on him, but those are my rough stats from what I've seen so far. I don't know about warlock's ability to land their nukes on groupx4s, but I bet they'd be good on darathar or vox, since they both have high elemental resists.on a sidenote: On the Darathar fights, ball of fire/flames are basically useless to cast and will just waste all my power, so basically in that fight, I just ice comet, then pump healers' power. Same with vox, but I have more firebased spells I can cast<p>Message Edited by Tabemono on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:51 PM</span>

[Asterra]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that Wizards do superior single-target damage at level 50, because it is utterly untrue. Again I reference the Gulch golem encounter. You can read my earlier post for the eyebrow-raising, if unstartling parse results. My guild holds no illusions about the facts regarding Wizard / Warlock DPS. The ONLY reason I don't reroll is because SOE has a history of see-sawing the power of classes when they haven't a clue how their creations function. (I choose for the moment to ignore the fact that SOE also has a somewhat infamous history of using the Wizard class as the lowest end of the power scale.) With so much about Wizards being inescapably broken, and taking into account the TOTAL superiority of Warlocks on ALL fronts except for "evac", fixes and improvements are quite simply an inevitability.

[Jaegu]

<DIV>There is more to characters then just DPS and people need to take there head out of their a s s  and take a closer look at the classes before they start crying about "My character is nerfed and sucks compared to X character" </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards can Mez (Boreal) , Evac (Depart) , Harvest mana (Essence harvest) and can do very high damage to a single encounter. I think its a personal choice if you want to be a Wizard or Warlock and you need to pick a flavor that you enjoy the most.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To many people look at DPS and only dps when adding people to a group. I would rather have someone that knows what there doing and enjoys playing their character then someone that turns on a parsing tool and brags because he / she did the most damage in an encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It reminds me of the other night when I was looking for a group with my 27 Coercer and I got a tell to come to Varsoons. I was on my way there when I got another tell from the group saying never mind the group is looking for another Dps. They did not even stop to think that a coercer makes the group about 30 % more efficient over all with Haste / Power regen and can pull victory out from a possible defeat with Mez.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh well keep using your parser's and crying because your damage is not on par with another class and I will keep looking for the people that are actually skilled with their class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fendaria]

<blockquote><hr>Jaeguar wrote:<DIV>There is more to characters then just DPS</DIV><hr></blockquote>Actually, what really is there about a Wizard (or Warlock) besides DPS? I mean seriously. People don't grab a Wizard or Warlock thinking 'gee we need some utility, lets get a Wizard'.The class was billed as a DPS / big damage class.I picked a Wizard for the DPS. I never expected or wanted utility. If I had, I wouldn't have picked a Wizard. I'd be a priest or an illusionist or whatever.The Wizard is a class that at it's core is about damage. I cast a spell, the mob is hurt. I cast another spell, the mob dies. End of story. My job is done.And then you tell us there is more to characters than just the damage? Fine, maybe for another class but not Wizards and this is a Wizard forum.The DPS or damage a wizard does is the main root/core/base of this class. And if as a Wizard I feel I am not perfoming the function my class was designed for adequetly you can bet I am going to complain.Fendaria

[Yorc]

<blockquote><hr>Jaeguar wrote:<DIV>Wizards can Mez (Boreal) </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>I gather you have never acutally used this spell or seen it used. This is without a doubt the most useless spell in the Wizard arsenal. When and if it hits it immobilizes the wizard and lasts maybe 6 seconds. I have the adept 1 and have trying this one out on gray mobs just for kicks, it's still useless. Find a better example.While most complain about the dps I think the problem for most of us is how a level 38 warlock can out dps a level 50 wiz. That seems just a bit much to me. Give us a boost and make us on a par with the warlocks is all anybody is asking. I'm not even concerned if their dps stays higher than ours, with large groups I would think their dps should be greater because of the AE's. But on a single mob we should be the dps King and we are not.

[Sokolov]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fendaria wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaeguar wrote:<BR> <DIV>There is more to characters then just DPS</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Actually, what really is there about a Wizard (or Warlock) besides DPS? I mean seriously. People don't grab a Wizard or Warlock thinking 'gee we need some utility, lets get a Wizard'.<BR><BR>The class was billed as a DPS / big damage class.<BR><BR>I picked a Wizard for the DPS. I never expected or wanted utility. If I had, I wouldn't have picked a Wizard. I'd be a priest or an illusionist or whatever.<BR><BR>The Wizard is a class that at it's core is about damage. I cast a spell, the mob is hurt. I cast another spell, the mob dies. End of story. My job is done.<BR><BR>And then you tell us there is more to characters than just the damage? Fine, maybe for another class but not Wizards and this is a Wizard forum.<BR><BR>The DPS or damage a wizard does is the main root/core/base of this class. And if as a Wizard I feel I am not perfoming the function my class was designed for adequetly you can bet I am going to complain.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Fendaria<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I'd argue that a warlock has more utility from fight-to-fight anyway.

[Fina]

Yet another thread that goes unacknowledged by Devs... shame.

[Seth]

<DIV>..... 6 pages of /cry</DIV>

[Nuvi]

<P> <SPAN>Moorgard</SPAN> allrdy posted that balancing the mage tree is something they are working on atm,so i wouldnt worry 2 much <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P><p>Message Edited by Nuvian on <span class=date_text>03-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:54 AM</span>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stone Rhino wrote:<BR> <DIV>Maybe, maybe not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Played with a 44 Warlock tonight in PF. I am/was a 47 Wiz. His Distortion is Adept 3, so is my BoFlames. I´m 47. His Distortion hit on the named we fought there with at least 1k, normal was well near 1300, while the highest hit was each fight at least 1400. My best with BoF was very low 900. After i casted all of the 3 DoT/Debuffs on the Mob. Most of the times it´s high 700-low 800. Needless to say he outdps´ed me in every fight. Since we had a 49 Pal we could go out and that´s what i did with my Adept 1/3´s. Mostly it was only 10-20 DPS, but some times even up to high 40´s disparity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now i know this supposed to be about Ice Comet and his "awesome" hitting, but mind the question how should i have "bragging" rights about highest damage when a -3lvl War totally outnuked me? I mean he said fully debuffed he scores 2k with Distortion! I have yet to see my BoF hit for even 1k!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry but somehow i´m a bit disappointed, somehow.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>Your right...  but in three more levels you get<EM> <STRONG>Ice Comet</STRONG></EM> (3,000+ dmg)....   that Warlock will still be using thatlvl 37 spell Nil Distortion @ lvl 50, because it the last Nuke are Warlock gets.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>I hope </FONT><FONT color=#3399ff>Fiery pulse gets an upgrade and and Boreal has like a 18 second timer instead of the measly 6... and it instant castable...!!   Those 2 changes would be enough to out pace any Warlock and add to the distinctivness of the Wizard class.<BR></FONT></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Erowid on <span class=date_text>03-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:01 PM</span>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <STRONG>papabear005 wrote</STRONG>:<BR> <DIV>piercing icicles - lvl 40 dot/ heat and cold debuff</DIV> <DIV>icy coil - lvl 29 dot/ debuff same as above</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>some say it stacks, some say it doesnt ( the debuff part of it).  i use em both anyway, doesnt hurt to cast both.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>essential intromission - lvl 47 hp->power @ app 1 its 79 hp -> 109 power</DIV> <DIV>fiery surge - lvl 46 power -> power @ adept 1 its 160power -> 283 power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>even if you upgrade to adept 3s, the numbers wont go sky high on these.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in realty, we have 1 debuff, 2 power heals.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>Papa,  Isn't Piercing Icecles(lvl 40) & Icy Coil(lvl 29) a Nuke with a small dot...?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR></P>

[Stone Rhino]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote: <P><FONT color=#3399ff>Your right...  but in three more levels you get<EM> <STRONG>Ice Comet</STRONG></EM> (3,000+ dmg)....   that Warlock will still be using thatlvl 37 spell Nil Distortion @ lvl 50, because it the last Nuke are Warlock gets.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>I hope </FONT><FONT color=#3399ff>Fiery pulse gets an upgrade and and Boreal has like a 18 second timer instead of the measly 6... and it instant castable...!!   Those 2 changes would be enough to out pace any Warlock and add to the distinctivness of the Wizard class.</FONT><FONT color=#3399ff><BR></FONT></P> <DIV> <HR>  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh really? Then tell me what do you consider your final nuke at 50 then? Slap int he face? 2500 ticked on a SINGLE Mob i would [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] well call NUKE. Whether it be instant or within 5 or 6 seconds can not even be debated upon since the Target won´t die that fast for it to not do it´s full damage. ANd if you add a second Mob to it... you end up at 5000 Damage overall, 3 Mobs = 7500, 4 Mobs 10000!!!! YOu read that number 10000 on 4 Mobs. And you come and proclaim that´s not a nuke? I just came out of SE, where the group went all the way down to Nagas door. We had lots of 3+ Mobs encounters, where you would do 7500 with that single DoT/Nuke. While i would do a whooping 2500-3000 on a single target. Lets compare ok? 3000 vs 7500, does that sound equal? No. Compare the Power of them and guess what? They are tiped towards your DoT too. Hmm, anything else? Oh yes i totally forgot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well what do you think we use even at 50? Yeap our lvl 37 BoFl. So you get a murder "DoT" that does [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]load more ( or almost equal on Single Mobs ) damage then Ice Comet, for less power and you proclaim you don´t get a Nuke at 50? That you still use your 37 Nuke then? Well maybe i was able to show you how wrong you are in those regards. Sorry if i´m a tad offensive but i do consider your post telling me that your 50 DoT isn´t a nuke as offensive, call it a nuke or not it does the same damage as Ice on Single and much more on Multi. Pure haircutting to say it´s not a nuke per se, because it sure as hell does more then enough damage for a Nuke category, when i have to compare it to our top level Nuke to just get somewhere equal stats ( on Single Mobs ). Of course i could also compare it to Icy Wind since that is our last DoT that comes closest to your 50 DoT. Of course comparing 300-400 overall to 2500 does sound a tad weird, don´t you think?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Stone Rhino]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <STRONG>papabear005 wrote</STRONG>:<BR> <DIV>piercing icicles - lvl 40 dot/ heat and cold debuff</DIV> <DIV>icy coil - lvl 29 dot/ debuff same as above</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>some say it stacks, some say it doesnt ( the debuff part of it).  i use em both anyway, doesnt hurt to cast both.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>essential intromission - lvl 47 hp->power @ app 1 its 79 hp -> 109 power</DIV> <DIV>fiery surge - lvl 46 power -> power @ adept 1 its 160power -> 283 power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>even if you upgrade to adept 3s, the numbers wont go sky high on these.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in realty, we have 1 debuff, 2 power heals.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#3399ff>Papa,  Isn't Piercing Icecles(lvl 40) & Icy Coil(lvl 29) a Nuke with a small dot...?</FONT></P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Only if you consider 200 instant damage at 40 as Nuke... and then 40-50 per tick as much ( Adept 1 mind you ). The main thing of those are DEBUFF, it debuffs the target vs Elemental for 1200-1500. Now what would you think is the main reason we use it?</P> <P>Debuff?</P> <P>Instant Damage?</P> <P>DoT?</P> <P>Your choice.</P>

[Flachett]

anyone posted a bunch of parsings comparing wizards and warlocks yet? cant seem to find them, I know they were here somewhere

[Flachett]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stone Rhino wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Oh really? Then tell me what do you consider your final nuke at 50 then? Slap int he face? 2500 ticked on a SINGLE Mob i would [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] well call NUKE. Whether it be instant or within 5 or 6 seconds can not even be debated upon since the Target won´t die that fast for it to not do it´s full damage. ANd if you add a second Mob to it... you end up at 5000 Damage overall, 3 Mobs = 7500, 4 Mobs 10000!!!! <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>this is all theoretical, this is assuming its not resisted in any way. This is also assuming you get full ticks out of each dot etc etc. Last I read when checking highest magical hits on the servers ive seen wizards hits upwards of close to 5k with ice comet. If you rather have a big dot maybe you shouldve rolled a warlock. Why dont we quit all this theroetical butt whining class envy until we see some hard evidence shown through parsings. I will admit there is an imbalance on power vs damage on some spells but with the short cast times on wizards nukes and wizs having better dots Id say its not as far off as most of you make it to be (unless you suck at playing your toon). But then again im sure alot of you more vocal people wont be happy until wizard is the #1 undisputed damage dealer bar none and take less power to do so while  tanking at the same time so go figure.<BR></P>

[Violator]

<DIV>Hey, I have a great idea. Since wizards are the DD masters at 50, and Warlocks are the AOE champ at 50, lets make wizards AOE champ till 50, like the Warlock is DD champ till 50. How about they make Immolation an AOE dot. Heck, its already got the casting time as an AOE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2s.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And on a side note, wizard lvl 40 training really is kinda lame comparativly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Violatortn on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:20 AM</span>

[Asterra]

I seriously doubt most people who are still playing their Wizards at the highest levels are in any way interested in being "masters" of a nebulously-defined niche like "DD" or "AE".  No, indeed.  They are raiding, and they chose a class whose defining role is overwhelming DPS.  Right now, make NO mistake, Warlocks outright destroy Wizards for raid DPS, regardless of whether we are talking about a single target or multiple targets. As for Nil Distortion vs. Ice Comet, tell me which you would rather have: 3000 (average) damage every 49 seconds, which you cannot even cast on most mobs until either it's guaranteed to die from the cast or a few minutes have gone by (for risk of attracting a distractful pounding into the ground, since Ice Comet attracts aggro completely out of proportion with even its respectable damage), or 1800 damage every 21 seconds, with considerably lessened aggro risk.  It really doesn't take a mathematics genius to see which formula wins, even if aggro is totally ignored.  Probably a good moment to point out that many mobs are frustratingly non-susceptible or outright immune to Ice Comet (or heat and cold in general), whereas I think I can name all of one mob that actually exhibits resistances to poison or disease.  A classic, totally unfair design flaw.

[Victicu]

<DIV>people still comparing nil distortion to ice comet are idiots...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>devs balanced ball of flames to nil distortion...anyone can see that if you look at the damage and recast times of the spells</DIV>

[Stone Rhino]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV>people still comparing nil distortion to ice comet are idiots...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>devs balanced ball of flames to nil distortion...anyone can see that if you look at the damage and recast times of the spells</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Balanced?</DIV> <DIV>                                   Cast Time               Damage           Recast               Mana <DIV>Ball of Flames                  2                        500-900                 6                     167</DIV> <DIV>Nil Distortion                     2                      1300-2000             18                      42 (If it hits, if it has a FULL resist, 167)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you really here to try and say those 2 are balanced to eachother? You did say that.</DIV> <DIV>I can cast BoFl about 2 1/2 times than ND, but i already need at least 2 BoFl to just get roughly even with ND. Now the main problem that obviously ppl, like you, totally overlook:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>2x BoFl     334 Power</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>1x ND         42 Power</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tell me again, are those Balanced? Do they look Balanced?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To make sure, hopefully, what i mean is this:</DIV> <DIV>Unbuffed i have 2170 Power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That makes a total of:</DIV> <DIV>12,99 BoFl ( let´s make it 13 ok? )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>13 BoFl with ~750 each makes 9750 damage in 104 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for ND that would be:</DIV> <DIV>51 ND for ~ 1600 = 81600 in 1020 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now for comparison:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Number          Cast Time        Damage</DIV> <DIV>13 BoFl                104                  9750</DIV> <DIV>51 ND                 1020                81600</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now you prolly going to try and tell me if i would count that up to 1020 for BoFl that the damage would equal again. BUT you miss the point that after we spent our power we have to canibalize, which stuns us for about 15 seconds. This alone would greatly kill the time between casts, right? Not to mention that we would need at least 1 Healer who keeps us healed to be even able to feed, right?</DIV> <DIV>Overall it would result that your ND will plain simply rule over BoFl in the long run too.</DIV> <DIV>And you should know that regen in fight is slow... So these stats hopefully show how totally whacked the 2 spells are "compared to each other". You can keep nuking for a long time and do easily 6-8 times our damage while we would sit in the corner and wait for power to regen, or be stunned or play energizer bunny.</DIV> <DIV>But i soo agree that those 2 spells are balanced to eachother. Most certainly.</DIV></DIV>

[Erow]

<P><FONT color=#3399ff><U><STRONG>Ice Comet </STRONG> (adept III):</U>  </FONT><FONT color=#3399ff>2992 - 3657 instant damage</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff><U><STRONG>Ball of Flames</STRONG> (adept 1):</U>  </FONT><FONT color=#3399ff>577 - 866 instant damage</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff><U><STRONG>Ball of Fire</STRONG> (adept III):</U>  </FONT><FONT color=#3399ff>447 - 670 instant damage</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3399ff><U><STRONG>Immoliation</STRONG> (adept 1):</U>  </FONT><FONT color=#3399ff>262 - 436 instant damage, 267-445 x 3 ticks (<FONT color=#33cccc>1,771 total</FONT>)</FONT></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>I beleive that Wizards spell should be FAST casting, but longer recast time.... that way they can make use of all their nukes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Obviously, Wizards have some pretty nice single DOT's that they seem to neglect in this discussion.  Toss a few dots then Immoliate then Ice them... !  <STRONG> Ice Comet</STRONG> & <STRONG>Immoliation</STRONG> combines can do<FONT color=#3399cc> 5,428</FONT> dmg.  Allowing the wizards to concintrate on watching for when to cast a Stun and monitor other battle tactics.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stone Rhino wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <DIV>people still comparing nil distortion to ice comet are idiots...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>devs balanced ball of flames to nil distortion...anyone can see that if you look at the damage and recast times of the spells</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Balanced?</DIV> <DIV>                                   Cast Time               Damage           Recast               Mana <DIV>Ball of Flames                  2                        500-900                 6                     167</DIV> <DIV>Nil Distortion                     2                      1300-2000             18                      42 (If it hits, if it has a FULL resist, 167)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are you really here to try and say those 2 are balanced to eachother? You did say that.</DIV> <DIV>I can cast BoFl about 2 1/2 times than ND, but i already need at least 2 BoFl to just get roughly even with ND. Now the main problem that obviously ppl, like you, totally overlook:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>2x BoFl     334 Power</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG>1x ND         42 Power</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tell me again, are those Balanced? Do they look Balanced?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To make sure, hopefully, what i mean is this:</DIV> <DIV>Unbuffed i have 2170 Power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That makes a total of:</DIV> <DIV>12,99 BoFl ( let´s make it 13 ok? )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>13 BoFl with ~750 each makes 9750 damage in 104 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for ND that would be:</DIV> <DIV>51 ND for ~ 1600 = 81600 in 1020 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now for comparison:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Number          Cast Time        Damage</DIV> <DIV>13 BoFl                104                  9750</DIV> <DIV>51 ND                 1020                81600</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now you prolly going to try and tell me if i would count that up to 1020 for BoFl that the damage would equal again. BUT you miss the point that after we spent our power we have to canibalize, which stuns us for about 15 seconds. This alone would greatly kill the time between casts, right? Not to mention that we would need at least 1 Healer who keeps us healed to be even able to feed, right?</DIV> <DIV>Overall it would result that your ND will plain simply rule over BoFl in the long run too.</DIV> <DIV>And you should know that regen in fight is slow... So these stats hopefully show how totally whacked the 2 spells are "compared to each other". You can keep nuking for a long time and do easily 6-8 times our damage while we would sit in the corner and wait for power to regen, or be stunned or play energizer bunny.</DIV> <DIV>But i soo agree that those 2 spells are balanced to eachother. Most certainly.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>I can now see why you are "crying" ...!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Who would cast Ball of Flames 12 times in a row ...?  A powerful Wizard uses ALL the spells in his arsenal.  You equal the sum of all your parts... if your only using one part... then you are only part of a wizard !!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>You have extrmely efficient DOT's than can be ticking away while you cycle threw Ball of Flames, Ball of Fire and Westends Ice Sphere !!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Your talking about efficiency and not potency...   out of combat regen and more INT is what you need, plus some good lvl 40 Drinks.  Then I always use my Health to Mana taps (Disc Flow) DURING a fight so I always have power.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>I would like to see Ball of Flames get a 25% redux in power Cost and have them add a small Stunn effect to it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Example:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><STRONG><U>Ball of Flames</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Power: 126</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Damage: 600-900</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>-1 second stun</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><STRONG><U>Fiery Pulse:</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Power: 100</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Damage: 700-800</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Reduces Target movement speed by 50% for 10 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>casting Time: 1 second</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>recast time: 30 seconds</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Quick casting finisher.   This will add to your efficiency and dmg output, and further define your class with Cold Nukes that snare (freeze) an opponent.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Warlocks are not against you....  but when you get a Nuke thats capable of doing 3,657 dmg and our last nuke is at lvl 37 and does 1,900 dmg    ... you are the NukeMasters...!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV>

[papabear0]

<DIV>"<FONT color=#3399ff>Warlocks are not against you....  but when you get a Nuke thats capable of doing 3,657 dmg and our last nuke is at lvl 37 and does 1,900 dmg    ... you are the NukeMasters...! " </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>im raising the bs flag.  heres what happening in raids, the epic x 4 ones.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i cast ice comet (adept 3), 45 sec recast, 3657 hit ( more like 3k)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>fellow warlock guildie cast devastation (adept 3), 45 sec recast, multiple mobs, 12,000 hit (not full 12k but close). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you raid the epic zones , you know full well theres no single target mobs.  please dont bring up named ones, we cant even touch those with our big nukes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for you to compare our "50" nuke with your "37" nuke without even considering what warlocks do in raid and saying that im a "NukeMaster", tells me you have NO clue on what is really going on.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[RSZ]

<P>Not to break the flow of the discussion here but am I the only one who sees an accross the board nerf to warlocks and wizards alike as a result of threads like this?</P> <P>This is like two kids fighting for a toy.  The parent comes in, and seeing the two pound one another, takes the toy away.</P> <P> </P> <P>Very valuable thread, yet by its length it will attract attention of SOE and likely not in a way that posters here intended.</P>

[Stone Rhino]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>I can now see why you are "crying" ...!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Who would cast Ball of Flames 12 times in a row ...?  A powerful Wizard uses ALL the spells in his arsenal.  You equal the sum of all your parts... if your only using one part... then you are only part of a wizard !!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>You have extrmely efficient DOT's than can be ticking away while you cycle threw Ball of Flames, Ball of Fire and Westends Ice Sphere !!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Your talking about efficiency and not potency...   out of combat regen and more INT is what you need, plus some good lvl 40 Drinks.  Then I always use my Health to Mana taps (Disc Flow) DURING a fight so I always have power.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>I would like to see Ball of Flames get a 25% redux in power Cost and have them add a small Stunn effect to it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Example:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><STRONG><U>Ball of Flames</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Power: 126</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Damage: 600-900</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>-1 second stun</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><STRONG><U>Fiery Pulse:</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Power: 100</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Damage: 700-800</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Reduces Target movement speed by 50% for 10 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>casting Time: 1 second</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>recast time: 30 seconds</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Quick casting finisher.   This will add to your efficiency and dmg output, and further define your class with Cold Nukes that snare (freeze) an opponent.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Warlocks are not against you....  but when you get a Nuke thats capable of doing 3,657 dmg and our last nuke is at lvl 37 and does 1,900 dmg    ... you are the NukeMasters...!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], Do you really believe i cast only BoFl? OH boy, sorry, but at this point i just consider you stupid.</P> <P>I use Tier 4 Drinks, i use ( and if you would´ve READ this thread ) all of my spells that are WORTHWHILE. Look up, somewhere in my replies is a list what i cast.</P> <P>I COMPARED, read again C O M P A R E D those 2 spells. You [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing can´t compare 2 spells when you suddenly throw in other spells.</P> <P>I triedx to show up the difference in power useage to Damage of those 2 Spells, but obviously you´re either not capable to understand that comparison or too ignorant for it.</P> <P>And just for you, I cast BoFl very often in fights, because with 6 secs it´s the fastest Nuke i have. Immo has á long recast, just like Ice Spear.</P> <P> </P> <P>Out of COmbat regen.... DUDE I´M TALKING IN COMBAT. I regen Power easily out of Combat, but that´s not the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing point. Currently i don´t give a flying [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about ooc Regen because we´re oop IN Combat so fast COMPARED to Warlox that it´s not funny anymore.</P> <P>Extremly good DoT? I have 3 of those, 1 Group 2 Single. Dunno about you, but the primary reason that i waste power on those are because of the DEBUFF they bring along, not for the damage they do, not even close.</P> <P>Fiery Pulse, do you even know [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] that is? That´s a Group attack, with a VERY small Direct Damage ( 150-200 ) and a neglectable DoT ( 40-50 ) at lvl 49 mind you... And you want to make it 30 Seconds Recast? WOOT another AE we ain´t gonna touch then because it´s not even worth being put on the bar lol. Target Movement speed reduced, hmm, how often does the mob move after initial aggroing? Not once? When it dies? Never? So the Movement reduction would be about as useless as it can be. whoopideedo. By just thinking you should´ve come to the same conclusion, obviously not the case, again.</P> <P>WRONG, they are. Read all the replies from Warlocks in Wizzie Forum, read them, 90% of them are "suck it up" "shut up" "quit whining" "We´re equal cause you get Evac!". If Warlocks don´t [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing realize that we´re suppose to deal equal damage and this is so obviously NOT the case, but still such responses they ARE against Wizzies, Ende Aus Mickey Maus.</P> <P>And stop trying to convince ppl that your 50 Spell isn´t a nuke because it [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing is. It does ALMOST, yes ALMOST the same damage then Ice Comet just not right away. Yes per se it´s not a Nuke but a DoT, but it still does nearly the same damage ON A SINGLE TARGET. Put 2 Mobs in and it´s well above Ice Comet. As i wrote previously too.</P> <P>But whatever, dream on in your fantasy world, i´m done with it. It´s now obvious why ppl are too ignorant to even bother taking a look in the rediculously "equality" between Warlox and Wizards with such statements as yours.</P> <P>Have a day.</P>

[Victicu]

<P>i never said the power costs of ball of flames and nil distortion were balanced...in fact in another thread i mentioned ball of flames needed a huge reduction in power cost</P> <P>i mentioned the damage and recast times were balanced</P> <P>and the numbers you are making are silly and non-realistic...since when is a warlock going to do 51 nil distortions in one fight.</P><p>Message Edited by Victicus7 on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:08 AM</span>

[Victicu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stone Rhino wrote:<BR><BR> <P>WRONG, they are. Read all the replies from Warlocks in Wizzie Forum, read them, 90% of them are "suck it up" "shut up" "quit whining" "We´re equal cause you get Evac!". If Warlocks don´t [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing realize that we´re suppose to deal equal damage and this is so obviously NOT the case, but still such responses they ARE against Wizzies, Ende Aus Mickey Maus.</P> <HR> <P>i only post here because you guys blow warlocks way out of proportion....</P> <P>try to balance and compare spells that have nothing in common....</P> <P>and pull crazy unrealistic numbers that would never happen in game...</P> <P>someone needs to post here to defend warlocks...since wizards just love talking about them so much</P> <P>never have wizards and warlocks done equal damage in any part of the game...ever since the day of release we have never done equal damage...and we never will...</P> <P>go back and re-read mooguards post on class balancing... our classes will never be equal... warlocks are better at certain levels and in certain encounters... i have been out damaged by wizards on many occasions... i admit though, i pull way ahead of wizards on multi mob encounters. Is this intented by SoE? I do not know.</P> <P>Devastation is the warlock unique spell...wizards have nothing that can compare to it... Devastation is THE defining spell of the warlock.</P> <P>Ice Comet is the wizard unique spell...warlocks have nothing that can compare to it...Ice Comet is what makes a wizard, a wizard.</P> <P>if you have a problem with Ice Comet...then ask for Ice Comet to be fixed!!!  Ask for more damage on it, or a shorter recast, or lower mana cost, or make it AE, hell i dont care. Just don't try to compare it to a warlock spell...theres simply nothing a warlock has that is similar to ice comet!</P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Kilferf 'U]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yorc wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaeguar wrote:<BR> <DIV>Wizards can Mez (Boreal) </DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>I gather you have never acutally used this spell or seen it used. This is without a doubt the most useless spell in the Wizard arsenal. When and if it hits it immobilizes the wizard and lasts maybe 6 seconds. I have the adept 1 and have trying this one out on gray mobs just for kicks, it's still useless. Find a better example.<BR><BR>While most complain about the dps I think the problem for most of us is how a level 38 warlock can out dps a level 50 wiz. That seems just a bit much to me. Give us a boost and make us on a par with the warlocks is all anybody is asking. I'm not even concerned if their dps stays higher than ours, with large groups I would think their dps should be greater because of the AE's. But on a single mob we should be the dps King and we are not.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>Taunts don't break Boreal/Aurora, btw. So mezzing an add as he shows up or mezzing an add you had rooted while group backed up 5 feet gives enough time to regroup, lets tank get a helluva lot of agro before letting go. Same with roots. The spell is aw2esome imho, a lifesaver mostly as it has such a fast cast and mostly for pops on group. I dunno to each his own, i play my wiz to the fullest and i really found this spell to be very, very, very handy.</P> <P> </P> <P>That is all. Naw i didn't read anything but that post either <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stone Rhino wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>I can now see why you are "crying" ...!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Who would cast Ball of Flames 12 times in a row ...?  A powerful Wizard uses ALL the spells in his arsenal.  You equal the sum of all your parts... if your only using one part... then you are only part of a wizard !!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>You have extrmely efficient DOT's than can be ticking away while you cycle threw Ball of Flames, Ball of Fire and Westends Ice Sphere !!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Your talking about efficiency and not potency...   out of combat regen and more INT is what you need, plus some good lvl 40 Drinks.  Then I always use my Health to Mana taps (Disc Flow) DURING a fight so I always have power.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>I would like to see Ball of Flames get a 25% redux in power Cost and have them add a small Stunn effect to it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Example:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><STRONG><U>Ball of Flames</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Power: 126</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Damage: 600-900</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>-1 second stun</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><STRONG><U>Fiery Pulse:</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Power: 100</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Damage: 700-800</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Reduces Target movement speed by 50% for 10 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>casting Time: 1 second</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>recast time: 30 seconds</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Quick casting finisher.   This will add to your efficiency and dmg output, and further define your class with Cold Nukes that snare (freeze) an opponent.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Warlocks are not against you....  but when you get a Nuke thats capable of doing 3,657 dmg and our last nuke is at lvl 37 and does 1,900 dmg    ... you are the NukeMasters...!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], Do you really believe i cast only BoFl? OH boy, sorry, but at this point i just consider you stupid.</P> <P>I use Tier 4 Drinks, i use ( and if you would´ve READ this thread ) all of my spells that are WORTHWHILE. Look up, somewhere in my replies is a list what i cast.</P> <P>I COMPARED, read again C O M P A R E D those 2 spells. You [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing can´t compare 2 spells when you suddenly throw in other spells.</P> <P>I triedx to show up the difference in power useage to Damage of those 2 Spells, but obviously you´re either not capable to understand that comparison or too ignorant for it.</P> <P>And just for you, I cast BoFl very often in fights, because with 6 secs it´s the fastest Nuke i have. Immo has á long recast, just like Ice Spear.</P> <P> </P> <P>Out of COmbat regen.... DUDE I´M TALKING IN COMBAT. I regen Power easily out of Combat, but that´s not the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing point. Currently i don´t give a flying [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about ooc Regen because we´re oop IN Combat so fast COMPARED to Warlox that it´s not funny anymore.</P> <P>Extremly good DoT? I have 3 of those, 1 Group 2 Single. Dunno about you, but the primary reason that i waste power on those are because of the DEBUFF they bring along, not for the damage they do, not even close.</P> <P>Fiery Pulse, do you even know [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] that is? That´s a Group attack, with a VERY small Direct Damage ( 150-200 ) and a neglectable DoT ( 40-50 ) at lvl 49 mind you... And you want to make it 30 Seconds Recast? WOOT another AE we ain´t gonna touch then because it´s not even worth being put on the bar lol. Target Movement speed reduced, hmm, how often does the mob move after initial aggroing? Not once? When it dies? Never? So the Movement reduction would be about as useless as it can be. whoopideedo. By just thinking you should´ve come to the same conclusion, obviously not the case, again.</P> <P>WRONG, they are. Read all the replies from Warlocks in Wizzie Forum, read them, 90% of them are "suck it up" "shut up" "quit whining" "We´re equal cause you get Evac!". If Warlocks don´t [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing realize that we´re suppose to deal equal damage and this is so obviously NOT the case, but still such responses they ARE against Wizzies, Ende Aus Mickey Maus.</P> <P>And stop trying to convince ppl that your 50 Spell isn´t a nuke because it [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing is. It does ALMOST, yes ALMOST the same damage then Ice Comet just not right away. Yes per se it´s not a Nuke but a DoT, but it still does nearly the same damage ON A SINGLE TARGET. Put 2 Mobs in and it´s well above Ice Comet. As i wrote previously too.</P> <P>But whatever, dream on in your fantasy world, i´m done with it. It´s now obvious why ppl are too ignorant to even bother taking a look in the rediculously "equality" between Warlox and Wizards with such statements as yours.</P> <P>Have a day.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>All I have to say is..... " <STRONG>Laughing Out Loud</STRONG> "</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>You missed my point all together... then proved my point.  You cannot directly compair a Wizard and a Warclock spell against each other without first taking into contex ALL the Wizards (or Warlock) spells.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>You have to look at the Fast Take down ability of the Wiz (@lvl 50) vrs the Dmg output of a Lock (@ lvl 50).  Devistation is a DOT...  Ice Comet is a Nuke.... which I thought we were talking about.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Warlocks get alot of AE spells ...  WIzards get single DOT's and Nukes (mostly)...   It easier to Mez 5 mobs and have the Raid party focus on 1 mob and have it finished off, that a tried and trued tactic. Your doing considerable dmg on that mob but slightly less than the Warlock... then at 40% you let Ice Comet go... !!!   You cannot do that with an AREA EFFECT Devastation... the raid would have 5 mobs running around chasing the Warlock.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Sure Devastation can do 10,000 dmg...   but it is Not instantaniously... it is Over time and on a maximum of 5 mobs. It is a <FONT color=#33ccff>VERY SITUATIONAL</FONT> spell..!   On Raids you don't storm-troop mobs, you make sure you have group chemsitry (which includes AE root & AE mez.) Sure, there is always those adds or pesky ones that dont want to stay rooted... but Devastation is not the Answere,  Ice Comet 99% of the time is ...!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Immoliation does almost the same dmg as Nil Distortion and it's soft dmg (ie a DOT).  While that is ticking you can add a plethora of other DOT's or nukes and at 50% toss in Ice Comet.  At that point it doesnt matter if the mob runs at you.  Not every mob you fight of every hour is a raid or epic encounter. You can easily do </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff><U>QUOTE:</U></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff> <P><EM>And stop trying to convince ppl that your 50 Spell isn´t a nuke because it [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing is. It does ALMOST, yes ALMOST the same damage then Ice Comet just not right away. Yes per se it´s not a Nuke but a DoT, but it still does nearly the same damage ON A SINGLE TARGET. Put 2 Mobs in and it´s well above Ice Comet. As i wrote previously too.</EM></P></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff><U>This is an extremely ignorant post</U>. Devastation works exactly like Immoliation, except it can land on 5 mobs (instead of 1) if they are within a small range of each other. It is a DOT...!  It doesn't matter if Davastation can do as much dmg as Ice Comet on a single target.... we cannot choose to only cast it on a single target... thus we are limited in it's use and implamentation. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>You are simply loosing the fact that Warlocks are capable (key word; capable) of doing more dmg....   but that is only when certain situations are applicable. Don't confuse DPS with Max dmg and try not getting confused with power efficiency... that is being looked into along with spells such as Fiery Pulse and Piercing Icicles.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Your underlying argument is flawed to the core... and your obviously hot headed, once you stop and take a look at the broken spells WIzards have.. and when they get fixed you will have a complete arsanel.... and still have 3,600 dmg Nuke.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>No need to reply if your going to swear... or throw a temper tantrum..!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[papabear0]

<P>how can you not compare devastion to ice comet?  you think that all high end raiding mobs die after one nuke of ice comet?</P> <P>erowid, after reading your posts, i am 100% sure that :</P> <P>you are not lvl 50.</P> <P>you do not fight the same mobs that i do.</P> <P>you still have NO clue about the differences between the 2 classes.</P>

[Erow]

<FONT color=#3399ff></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> papabear005 wrote:<BR> <P>how can you not compare devastion to ice comet?  you think that all high end raiding mobs die after one nuke of ice comet?</P> <P>erowid, after reading your posts, i am 100% sure that :</P> <P>you are not lvl 50.</P> <P>you do not fight the same mobs that i do.</P> <P>you still have NO clue about the differences between the 2 classes.</P> <BR> <HR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Jesus, are there nothing but mentally challenged people on these boards...?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>No, I don't think that any high end mobs die from IC....  did you actually READ my post ...?  Do you see where I give a scenario where I mention that <STRONG>at roughly 40% you can let  <EM>Ice Comet</EM>  go...</STRONG> ...   I didnt think I had to explain that the mob will now only have 10-15% of his life left or even be dead.  Raidng mobs are not all 100% Epic mobs.  They all don't have 40,000 hit points..  Some in EQ had 500,000 plus hit points.  Ice comet is not the only spell a Wizard has... he has to know when the tank has built up enough aggro and when to land it (not when to cast it)... somthing of playing EQ for nearly 7 years as a wizard has tought me.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Everyone keeps using High-End raiding mobs as the defacto-standard for which Ice Comet is used.... it is not.  Ice Comat is a single target Nuke, that can be casted on any mob. Raiding is only 1 part of EQ.. and currently only a small part. I highly doubt every Wizard only raids and is doing so 90% of the time.  But......</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>....if you want to take that Arguement it will further prove how limited Devastation is under Raid conditions.  Tank pulls three  ^^ lvl 52 mobs.  The other 2 get mezed.. and everyone turns to /assist on the MA (tank).  Wizard starts out with some small DOT/Debuffs then cast Immliation, followed by Ball of Flames then Westend's and Ball of Fire....   the mob is taking heavy dmg from the rest of the party and is almost dead (20%) BOOM... Ice Comet hits.  Mob is dead... or limping to the wizard before party drops it.  At the same time the Warlock did his routine of DOT/Debuff, followed by a smaller nuke as a tester; Ballenger's Sapping Salvo, then a bigger nuke Nill Distortion then another smaller Nuke Noxious Bolt, ... by that time the mob is at 20% and the Warlock's Nil Distortion has refreshed and he lets it fly...!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Thats more or less a typical fight. The Warlock cannot unleash his DEVASTATION because he would un-set the two other ^^ lvl 52 mobs and be dead before they could be rooted or re-mezed. There are situations where AE nukage is prudent... but more often than not you would end up [Removed for Content] the raid and party off for trying to achieve personal fame for maxiumum DPS when you keep getting yourself and other killed during a raid.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff>Now, Devastation will work wonders on Quick qesting of Greenies and greys... and mobs where the Warlock will be able to survive for a Heal or an AE root is comming.   Mez will not work aftewr Devastation is cast because it keeps on ticking....breaking mez.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3399ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Erowid on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:21 PM</span>

[Eadric]

<P><SPAN>I am in full support of SoE reviewing the power cost on wizard spells (especially BoF). We don't have a spell like Immolation, however, so that is another source of damage that should be considered in the wizard's arsenal.</SPAN></P> <P>-Mostin<BR>45th-level Warlock<BR>Guk Server</P>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Devastation is the warlock unique spell...wizards have nothing that can compare to it... Devastation is THE defining spell of the warlock.</P> <P>Ice Comet is the wizard unique spell...warlocks have nothing that can compare to it...Ice Comet is what makes a wizard, a wizard.</P> <P>if you have a problem with Ice Comet...then ask for Ice Comet to be fixed!!!  Ask for more damage on it, or a shorter recast, or lower mana cost, or make it AE, hell i dont care. Just don't try to compare it to a warlock spell...theres simply nothing a warlock has that is similar to ice comet!</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>1. "Devastation is the warlock unique spell...wizards have nothing that can compare to it"<BR>    I agree with this. Wizards dont have any AE spells (dd or dot) does damage close to devastation. <BR>    Firey pulse = 5+15 cast/recast time = 250 max damage.<BR>    Devastation = 3+45 cast/recast time = 2500 max damage.<BR>    The dps of these two spells = 12.5 : 52. Devastation is doing 4 times more dps than firey pulse.<BR> <BR>2. "Ice Comet is the wizard unique spell...warlocks have nothing that can compare to it"<BR>    You're wrong. Warlock's nil destrotion does even or more dps than ice comet. (though I dont really want to compare these two spells...)<BR>    Ice comet = 3+45 cast/recast time = 3600 max damage.<BR>    Nil distortion = 2+18 cast recast time = 2000 max damage.<BR>    The dps of these two spells = 75 : 100. Ice comet is only doing 75% the dps of nil distortion.<BR> <BR>3. Yes we've asked soe to fix some of our spells. <BR>   My suggestion: Firey pulse needs to do 1000 damage. Ice comet needs to do 5000 damage.<BR>   And, wizard and warlock are two very similar classes. I dont see why we shouldnt compare to each other.</DIV><p>Message Edited by QQFatman on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:50 PM</span>

[Asterra]

Without question, the focus of any balancing SOE ultimately does to bring Wizards level with Warlocks should be on the Wizard's AE spells, and the reasons are plentiful and obvious.  First and foremost, they are currently broken.  Fiery Pulse and Inferno are 100% identical and on the same recast timer, and they debuff INT rather than STA.  Secondly, they are WORTHLESS.  I don't simply mean "in comparison to a Warlock's AEs."  I mean it's quite simply a better expendature of power AND casting time to focus on direct damage.  And third, of course, they are overwhelmingly inferior to Warlock AEs. The sad truth is that these truly worthless spells would need to be converted into literal equals to the Warlock's spells Devastation and Nil Absolution before Wizards would begin to approach Warlocks in DPS in any given scenario.  Fortunately, doing so would also reduce the gap in soloability between the two classes (although it would still be quite impossible for a Wizard to solo a level 45^^ mob, never mind a level 50^^ the way Warlocks do, since Wizards do not possess the unbelievable efficiency and power tapping abilities - and fear - enjoyed by Warlocks). People trying to analyze theoretical damage output in an attempt to prove something about DPS: forget it.  Parsing reveals all.  Heck, players aren't blind.  Warlocks win in every situation, with the possible exception of a shootout between a Warlock & Wizard against a single level 40 mob.  The Warlock would still be able to kill more level 40 mobs over any length of time exceeding 20 seconds, even if they're not grouped.

[Victicu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>2. "Ice Comet is the wizard unique spell...warlocks have nothing that can compare to it"<BR>   You're wrong. Warlock's nil destrotion does even or more dps than ice comet. (though I dont really want to compare these two spells...)<BR>   Ice comet = 3+45 cast/recast time = 3600 max damage.<BR>   Nil distortion = 2+18 cast recast time = 2000 max damage.<BR>   The dps of these two spells = 75 : 100. Ice comet is only doing 75% the dps of nil distortion.<BR> <BR></P> <HR> <P>For the LAST time...you can NOT compare Ice Comet to Nil distortion!</P> <P>Wizards already have a spell that compares very well to Nil Distortion...its called Ball of Flames!!</P> <P>Ball of Flames is balanced to Nil Distortion in their damage and recast times!!! the only thing wrong is Ball of Flames needs its mana cost lowered to one third of its current cost.</P> <P>NOTHING and i repeat NOTHING a warlock has can be compared to Ice Comet.</P> <P>Just as its absurd to compare Ice Comet to Devastation...as they are used in entirly different situations...and have different purposes.  not to mention one is an AE DoT and one is a DD.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by Victicus7 on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:04 PM</span>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Devastation is the warlock unique spell...wizards have nothing that can compare to it... Devastation is THE defining spell of the warlock.</P> <P>Ice Comet is the wizard unique spell...warlocks have nothing that can compare to it...Ice Comet is what makes a wizard, a wizard.</P> <P>if you have a problem with Ice Comet...then ask for Ice Comet to be fixed!!!  Ask for more damage on it, or a shorter recast, or lower mana cost, or make it AE, hell i dont care. Just don't try to compare it to a warlock spell...theres simply nothing a warlock has that is similar to ice comet!</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>1. "Devastation is the warlock unique spell...wizards have nothing that can compare to it"<BR>    I agree with this. Wizards dont have any AE spells (dd or dot) does damage close to devastation. <BR>    Firey pulse = 5+15 cast/recast time = 250 max damage.<BR>    Devastation = 3+45 cast/recast time = 2500 max damage.<BR>    The dps of these two spells = 12.5 : 52. Devastation is doing 4 times more dps than firey pulse.<BR> <BR>2. "Ice Comet is the wizard unique spell...warlocks have nothing that can compare to it"<BR>    You're wrong. Warlock's nil destrotion does even or more dps than ice comet. (though I dont really want to compare these two spells...)<BR>    Ice comet = 3+45 cast/recast time = 3600 max damage.<BR>    Nil distortion = 2+18 cast recast time = 2000 max damage.<BR>    The dps of these two spells = 75 : 100. Ice comet is only doing 75% the dps of nil distortion.<BR> <BR>3. Yes we've asked soe to fix some of our spells. <BR>   My suggestion: Firey pulse needs to do 1000 damage. Ice comet needs to do 5000 damage.<BR>   And, wizard and warlock are two very similar classes. I dont see why we shouldnt compare to each other.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by QQFatman on <SPAN class=date_text>03-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:50 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Once again, another person looking miopically at the classes and not looking at the sum of all their parts.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Wizards are single damage dealers...   Warlocks are situational AE specialist.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG><U>Ice Comet: Nuke</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-3,657 Instant damage (max) x 1</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG><U>Nil Distortion: Nuke</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-1930 Instant damage (max) x 1</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG><U>Devastation: DOT</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-600 dmg every 4 seconds for 20 seconds.  2,400 damage (max) x 1</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-up to 5 targets. 12,000 (max) x 5</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG><U>Immoliation: DOT</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-479 Instant damge</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-456 every 1.5 seconds for 4.5 seconds.  1,847 (max) x 1</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Again, Devastation is very situational an doesnt apply to 95% of the pulls in a group. It's an outstanding spread of damage and adds considerably to the Warlocks DPS.... but cannot be applied often as most would think.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Ice Comet is used during Every pull.. and a is no brainer once you learn the aggro level and the mobs hitpoints.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>I would like also to add the following:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG><U>Ball of Flames: Nuke</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-948 Instant damage (max) x 1</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>This spell can be casted TWICE before a Warlock get a refresh on his Nill Distortion. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Everyone can come here and Argue...  and peice this and that... compair this spell directly to that spell.  It doesnt work, you have to look at the entire spell list of each and the context in which the spells are given. Just look those spell fact over and let it sink in... I don't think I have to spell it out.  Those are the Staple spells of EACH class.  Yes Devastation is awsome... but not when it cannot be casted.  Wizards over a coarse of an hour will easily outdamage and out DPS a Warlock... simply because aour DPS is tied directly to Devastation and the right situation has to exsist before it can be casted.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For the LAST time...you can NOT compare Ice Comet to Nil distortion!</P> <P>Wizards already have a spell that compares very well to Nil Distortion...its called Ball of Flames!!</P> <P>Ball of Flames is balanced to Nil Distortion in their damage and recast times!!! the only thing wrong is Ball of Flames needs its mana cost lowered to one third of its current cost.</P> <P>NOTHING and i repeat NOTHING a warlock has can be compared to Ice Comet.</P> <P>Just as its absurd to compare Ice Comet to Devastation...as they are used in entirly different situations...and have different purposes.  not to mention one is an AE DoT and one is a DD.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Message Edited by Victicus7 on <SPAN class=date_text>03-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:04 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Alright... then tell me, what does wizard have to compare to warlock's AE? Not only to devastation, but also absolution line.</DIV>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For the LAST time...you can NOT compare Ice Comet to Nil distortion!</P> <P>Wizards already have a spell that compares very well to Nil Distortion...its called Ball of Flames!!</P> <P>Ball of Flames is balanced to Nil Distortion in their damage and recast times!!! the only thing wrong is Ball of Flames needs its mana cost lowered to one third of its current cost.</P> <P>NOTHING and i repeat NOTHING a warlock has can be compared to Ice Comet.</P> <P>Just as its absurd to compare Ice Comet to Devastation...as they are used in entirly different situations...and have different purposes.  not to mention one is an AE DoT and one is a DD.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Message Edited by Victicus7 on <SPAN class=date_text>03-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:04 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Alright... then tell me, what does wizard have to compare to warlock's AE? Not only to devastation, but also absolution line.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Nothing...!    </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Thats our difference... or trade off.   We can have sensational damage if the situation warrents it, but more often than not... say 90 - 95% of the time we cannot use our class definening spell - Devastation.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Erowid on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:41 PM</span>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Once again, another person looking miopically at the classes and not looking at the sum of all their parts.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Wizards are single damage dealers...   Warlocks are situational AE specialist.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG><U>Ice Comet: Nuke</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-3,657 Instant damage (max) x 1</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG><U>Nil Distortion: Nuke</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-1930 Instant damage (max) x 1</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT></DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG><U>Ball of Flames: Nuke</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-948 Instant damage (max) x 1</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>This spell can be casted TWICE before a Warlock get a refresh on his Nill Distortion. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Funny that you only see a wizard can cast twice ball of flames when a warlock casts one nil distortion. Do you know a warlock can cast 2 twice nil distortion when a wizard casts one ice comet? I'd like to add: ice comet and ball of flames both have much lower dpm (damage per mana) than nil distortion.</DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote: <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Nothing...!    </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Thats our difference... or trade off.   We can have sensational damage if the situation warrents it, but more often than not... say 90 - 95% of the time we cannot use our class definening spell - Devastation.</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Erowid on <SPAN class=date_text>03-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:41 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I dont understand why you cant cast an AE spell to a single target. Especially when that AE spell is doing higher damage than most of single target nuke.</DIV>

[Alfred75]

Let me guess the next topic of contest from the wizards - warlocks got more illusion spells than us warlocks ..... sigh ... <div></div>

[Alfred75]

<span><blockquote><hr>QQFatman wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Erowid wrote: <p><font color="#33ccff">Nothing...!    </font></p> <p><font color="#33ccff">Thats our difference... or trade off.   We can have sensational damage if the situation warrents it, but more often than not... say 90 - 95% of the time we cannot use our class definening spell - Devastation.</font></p> <p>Message Edited by Erowid on <span class="date_text">03-22-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:41 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <div>I dont understand why you cant cast an AE spell to a single target. Especially when that AE spell is doing higher damage than most of single target nuke.</div><hr></blockquote>Its the same reason why you would not want spend $50 on a $2 pepsi. Its not power efficient to cast ae nukes on single mobs, and its pretty dumb to do so - warlocks have intelligence as their primary statistics.</span><div></div>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alfred75 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR><BR><BR> <DIV>I dont understand why you cant cast an AE spell to a single target. Especially when that AE spell is doing higher damage than most of single target nuke.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Its the same reason why you would not want spend $50 on a $2 pepsi. Its not power efficient to cast ae nukes on single mobs, and its pretty dumb to do so - warlocks have intelligence as their primary statistics.</SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>..............ok, this is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. This is like a wizard saying: I cant cast ice comet when i fight 5 mobs because ice comet is for strong single target, it'll overkill a mob and waste power...</DIV>

[Victicu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>Funny that you only see a wizard can cast twice ball of flames when a warlock casts one nil distortion. Do you know a warlock can cast 2 twice nil distortion when a wizard casts one ice comet? I'd like to add: ice comet and ball of flames both have much lower dpm (damage per mana) than nil distortion.<BR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LOL you still group Ice Comet and Nil Distortion together</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>your argue you can cast 2 Ball of Flames to my one Nil Distortion...and i can cast 2 Nil Distortion to your 1 Ice Comet...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That means you can cast 2 Ball of Flames <STRONG>AND</STRONG> one Ice Comet in the same time it takes me to cast 2 Nil Distortions... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you realize you have a spell called Ball of Flames??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>What alot of you dont realize is Ball of Flames is the best wizard DD, not Ice Comet.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>If you wanted to help your classes you should be trying to lower Ball of Flames mana cost, instead of complaing about warlocks.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Victicus7 on <span class=date_text>03-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:42 AM</span>

[Stone Rhino]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>LOL you still group Ice Comet and Nil Distortion together</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>your argue you can cast 2 Ball of Flames to my one Nil Distortion...and i can cast 2 Nil Distortion to your 1 Ice Comet...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That means you can cast 2 Ball of Flames <STRONG>AND</STRONG> one Ice Comet in the same time it takes me to cast 2 Nil Distortions... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you realize you have a spell called Ball of Flames??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>What alot of you dont realize is Ball of Flames is the best wizard DD, not Ice Comet.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>If you wanted to help your classes you should be trying to lower Ball of Flames mana cost, instead of complaing about warlocks.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by Victicus7 on <SPAN class=date_text>03-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:42 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I give up, really. To ppl who defend that ND and BoFl are comparable, even saying multiple times in this and the other thread about direct comparisment they are balanced to eachother i have nothing more to say besides this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                   Cast Time               Damage           Recast               Mana <DIV>Ball of Flames                  2                        500-900                 6                     167</DIV> <DIV>Nil Distortion                     2                      1300-2000             18                      42 (If it hits, if it has a FULL resist, 167)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now take a Calculator, or a first class schooler and do the extreme math to calculate how much Mana BoFl has to use to actually make it BALANCED.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For those ungifted witht he mathematical talent: <STRONG>21</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course my first post/replie was totally overlooked, not to mention that said person then proceeded to lecture me in OUT of Combat power regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: Ancient Slayer, Mini-Dragon on the EF Boatride, Fyst, to just name a few for the 51 ND vs 13 BoFl comparison. ANd the list goes on and on and on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you really wish to compare 50 Spells:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What mobs are there?</DIV> <DIV>   1 x # ^^</DIV> <DIV>   2 x # ^</DIV> <DIV>3-5 x #</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With all Chanters i group so far, they all said "nuke the # but with the # ^ i´ll gonna mez one" So i don´t see why you´re so uptight with your "I can´t use your Dev on so many targets" Philosophy. Only on the # ^ encounters you wouldn´t be able to use it. Big deal.</DIV> <DIV>Also If you now try to squirm yourself out by saying Raid mobs, tell you what:</DIV> <DIV>Dev works for a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]load of damage.</DIV> <DIV>IC does NOT work. Zero, zip, nada, nix, null, pustekuchen.</DIV> <DIV>Pretty good comparion for 50 spells. So we´re bound to use BoFl and Immo, wow pretty murderous choices, ey?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have fun, maybe someday you will see and realize what i tried so badly to show up that is utterly obvious...</DIV></DIV>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Once again, another person looking miopically at the classes and not looking at the sum of all their parts.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Wizards are single damage dealers...   Warlocks are situational AE specialist.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG><U>Ice Comet: Nuke</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-3,657 Instant damage (max) x 1</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG><U>Nil Distortion: Nuke</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-1930 Instant damage (max) x 1</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT></DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG><U>Ball of Flames: Nuke</U></STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-948 Instant damage (max) x 1</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>This spell can be casted TWICE before a Warlock get a refresh on his Nill Distortion. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Funny that you only see a wizard can cast twice ball of flames when a warlock casts one nil distortion. Do you know a warlock can cast 2 twice nil distortion when a wizard casts one ice comet? I'd like to add: ice comet and ball of flames both have much lower dpm (damage per mana) than nil distortion.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Ok, in my previous post I left all this data open and asked you to STUDY it.  I didnt want to insult your intelligence by explaining and teaching you how numbers work. But I guess I will have to break it down for you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>If, </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>2 x <STRONG>Ball of Flames</STRONG> = 1 Nil Distortion</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>2 x <STRONG>Nil Distortion</STRONG> = 1 Ice Comet</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>... what does 2 x<STRONG> Ice Comet</STRONG> =  ????</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Your arguement about the Warlock's Nil Distortion is MOOT.... because a Wizard can cast 2 Ball of Flames in less time than it take for Nill Distortion to refresh. A Warlock can cast 2 Nill Distortions in the time a Wizard can cast an Ice Comet. Do you see another Nuke listed for a Warlock...?  We have Nil DIstortion and our lvl 30 Ballenger's (aka Wizards Westend's).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><FONT face=Garamond><FONT color=#009966><U><STRONG><FONT size=2>A typical Wizard fight would go something like this</FONT></STRONG></U>:</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>Immoliation - Ball of Flames - Ball of Fire - Ball of Flames - <STRONG>Ice Comet</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>1,847 + 948 + 670 + 948 + <STRONG>3,657</STRONG> = </FONT><FONT color=#00ccff>8,070 damage</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>4 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + <STRONG>3 seconds</STRONG> = 15 seconds with recovery time.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><U><STRONG><FONT color=#009966>A typical Warlock fight would go something like this:</FONT></STRONG></U></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>Ballenger's Sapping Salvo  -  <STRONG>Nill Distortion </STRONG> -  Henreva's Viral Blast  -  Dark Pyre  -  Flashfreeze  -  Ballenger's Sapping Salvo  -  Henra's Viral Blast  -  Dark Pyre  -  Flashfreeze  -  Ballenger's Sapping Salvo</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>985 + <STRONG>1,930</STRONG> + 870 + 406 + 300 + 985 + 870 + 406 + 300 + 985 =  8,037 damage</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>2 seconds + <STRONG>2 seconds</STRONG> + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds  = 24.5 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>And this scenario only works if the Warlock took the nuke for their lvl 30 & 40 training spell.  Warlocks DO NOT get a secondary nuke thats not tied to another timer.  Wizards forget SOE unlocked Ball of Flames and Ball of Fire from each other...  Ballenger's Sapping Salvo and Nil Distortion are our 2 greatest nukes...  one is on a 9 second timer the other is an 18 second timer. </FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>Wizards power cost is being looked into... but there is a price to pay for your quick take down ability. As the game flushes out... most all Wizards will have mana regen equipment and the only crux of your class will be moot.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV><FONT color=#99ff99></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV align=left><BR></DIV></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Erowid on <span class=date_text>03-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:25 PM</span>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Ok, in my previous post I left all this data open and asked you to STUDY it.  I didnt want to insult your intelligence by explaining and teaching you how numbers work. But I guess I will have to break it down for you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>If, </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>2 x <STRONG>Ball of Flames</STRONG> = 1 Nil Distortion</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>2 x <STRONG>Nil Distortion</STRONG> = 1 Ice Comet</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>... what does 2 x<STRONG> Ice Comet</STRONG> =  ????</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nothing! I'm just telling you that wizard's biggest nuke - ice comet - is nothing more than 2 nil distortion, and it's dps is even lower than nil distortion and costs more mana. This is our level 50 spell! So sad, a level 50 spell should be much better than a level 37 spell!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, warlock's level 50 spell - Devastation is a much better spell. There's no any AE dd or dot does damage close to it.  It is the best AE damage spell in dps-wise and dpm-wise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Your arguement about the Warlock's Nil Distortion is MOOT.... because a Wizard can cast 2 Ball of Flames in less time than it take for Nill Distortion to refresh. A Warlock can cast 2 Nill Distortions in the time a Wizard can cast an Ice Comet. Do you see another Nuke listed for a Warlock...?  We have Nil DIstortion and our lvl 30 Ballenger's (aka Wizards Westend's).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><FONT face=Garamond><FONT color=#009966><U><STRONG><FONT size=2>A typical Wizard fight would go something like this</FONT></STRONG></U>:</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>Immoliation - Ball of Flames - Ball of Fire - Ball of Flames - <STRONG>Ice Comet</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>1,847 + 948 + 670 + 948 + <STRONG>3,657</STRONG> = </FONT><FONT color=#00ccff>8,070 damage</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>4 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + <STRONG>3 seconds</STRONG> = 15 seconds with recovery time.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><U><STRONG><FONT color=#009966>A typical Warlock fight would go something like this:</FONT></STRONG></U></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>Ballenger's Sapping Salvo  -  <STRONG>Nill Distortion </STRONG> -  Henreva's Viral Blast  -  Dark Pyre  -  Flashfreeze  -  Ballenger's Sapping Salvo  -  Henra's Viral Blast  -  Dark Pyre  -  Flashfreeze  -  Ballenger's Sapping Salvo</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>985 + <STRONG>1,930</STRONG> + 870 + 406 + 300 + 985 + 870 + 406 + 300 + 985 =  8,037 damage</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>2 seconds + <STRONG>2 seconds</STRONG> + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds  = 24.5 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> <HR> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffffff>Bellenger - Henreva - Nil distortion - Devastation - Dark pyre - Ballenger - Henreva</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>985 + 870 + 1,930 + 2,500 + 406 + 985 + 870 = 8,546 damage</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 3 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds +2 seconds = 15 seconds</DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffffff>Warlock is doing higher dps to a SINGLE TARGET! Not to mention when it comes to multi-target...</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left> <HR> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>And this scenario only works if the Warlock took the nuke for their lvl 30 & 40 training spell.  Warlocks DO NOT get a secondary nuke thats not tied to another timer.  Wizards forget SOE unlocked Ball of Flames and Ball of Fire from each other...  Ballenger's Sapping Salvo and Nil Distortion are our 2 greatest nukes...  one is on a 9 second timer the other is an 18 second timer. </FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>Wizards power cost is being looked into... but there is a price to pay for your quick take down ability. As the game flushes out... most all Wizards will have mana regen equipment and the only crux of your class will be moot.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Erowid on <SPAN class=date_text>03-23-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:25 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Wiziard is doing lower dps even to a single target. Wizards' spells cost A LOT MORE mana.</DIV>

[Violator]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> <DIV><FONT size=3><FONT face=Garamond><FONT color=#009966><U><STRONG><FONT size=2>A typical Wizard fight would go something like this</FONT></STRONG></U>:</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>Immoliation - Ball of Flames - Ball of Fire - Ball of Flames - <STRONG>Ice Comet</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>1,847 + 948 + 670 + 948 + <STRONG>3,657</STRONG> = </FONT><FONT color=#00ccff>8,070 damage</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>4 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + <STRONG>3 seconds</STRONG> = 15 seconds with recovery time</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left> <HR> </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffffff>Ball of fire is a 4 sec cast, 12 sec recast, and uses a ton of mana also. Just FYI.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV></DIV></DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

actually its 3 second cast 12s recast.

[Victicu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stone Rhino wrote:<BR><BR><BR> <DIV>I give up, really. To ppl who defend that ND and BoFl are comparable, even saying multiple times in this and the other thread about direct comparisment they are balanced to eachother i have nothing more to say besides this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                   Cast Time               Damage           Recast               Mana <DIV>Ball of Flames                  2                        500-900                 6                     167</DIV> <DIV>Nil Distortion                     2                      1300-2000             18                      42 (If it hits, if it has a FULL resist, 167)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now take a Calculator, or a first class schooler and do the extreme math to calculate how much Mana BoFl has to use to actually make it BALANCED.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For those ungifted witht he mathematical talent: <STRONG>21</STRONG><BR> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So whats not balanced, other than the mana costs?? Which i already said many times that BoFL mana cost needs to be lowered, if it needs to cost 21 power so be it, i dont really care... I really dont see your arguement, other than the difference in mana costs...these spells are "almost" identical in damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Stone Rhino wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: Ancient Slayer, Mini-Dragon on the EF Boatride, Fyst, to just name a few for the 51 ND vs 13 BoFl comparison. ANd the list goes on and on and on.</DIV> <DIV> <HR>  </DIV> <DIV>I did the math and it would take close to 16-17 mins of full out chain casting Nil Distortion to cast it 51 times...no one is going to chain cast it that many times...just like no wizard is going to chain cast BoFl until they run completely out of power...again this comparison is unrealistic and plain silly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and if it takes you over 15 mins to kill an encounter you are either fighting a grey ^^^ mob with 2-3 people or have really really horrible DPS in your raid.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Stone Rhino wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV>If you really wish to compare 50 Spells:</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>no i dont want to compare lvl 50 spells...they are completely different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by Victicus7 on <span class=date_text>03-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:06 AM</span>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Ok, in my previous post I left all this data open and asked you to STUDY it.  I didnt want to insult your intelligence by explaining and teaching you how numbers work. But I guess I will have to break it down for you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>If, </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>2 x <STRONG>Ball of Flames</STRONG> = 1 Nil Distortion</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>2 x <STRONG>Nil Distortion</STRONG> = 1 Ice Comet</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>... what does 2 x<STRONG> Ice Comet</STRONG> =  ????</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nothing! I'm just telling you that wizard's biggest nuke - ice comet - is nothing more than 2 nil distortion, and it's dps is even lower than nil distortion and costs more mana. This is our level 50 spell! So sad, a level 50 spell should be much better than a level 37 spell!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, warlock's level 50 spell - Devastation is a much better spell. There's no any AE dd or dot does damage close to it.  It is the best AE damage spell in dps-wise and dpm-wise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Your arguement about the Warlock's Nil Distortion is MOOT.... because a Wizard can cast 2 Ball of Flames in less time than it take for Nill Distortion to refresh. A Warlock can cast 2 Nill Distortions in the time a Wizard can cast an Ice Comet. Do you see another Nuke listed for a Warlock...?  We have Nil DIstortion and our lvl 30 Ballenger's (aka Wizards Westend's).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><FONT face=Garamond><FONT color=#009966><U><STRONG><FONT size=2>A typical Wizard fight would go something like this</FONT></STRONG></U>:</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>Immoliation - Ball of Flames - Ball of Fire - Ball of Flames - <STRONG>Ice Comet</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>1,847 + 948 + 670 + 948 + <STRONG>3,657</STRONG> = </FONT><FONT color=#00ccff>8,070 damage</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>4 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + <STRONG>3 seconds</STRONG> = 15 seconds with recovery time.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><U><STRONG><FONT color=#009966>A typical Warlock fight would go something like this:</FONT></STRONG></U></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>Ballenger's Sapping Salvo  -  <STRONG>Nill Distortion </STRONG> -  Henreva's Viral Blast  -  Dark Pyre  -  Flashfreeze  -  Ballenger's Sapping Salvo  -  Henra's Viral Blast  -  Dark Pyre  -  Flashfreeze  -  Ballenger's Sapping Salvo</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>985 + <STRONG>1,930</STRONG> + 870 + 406 + 300 + 985 + 870 + 406 + 300 + 985 =  8,037 damage</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>2 seconds + <STRONG>2 seconds</STRONG> + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds  = 24.5 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> <HR> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffffff>Bellenger - Henreva - Nil distortion - Devastation - Dark pyre - Ballenger - Henreva</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>985 + 870 + 1,930 + 2,500 + 406 + 985 + 870 = 8,546 damage</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 3 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds +2 seconds = 15 seconds</DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffffff>Warlock is doing higher dps to a SINGLE TARGET! Not to mention when it comes to multi-target...</FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left> <HR> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>And this scenario only works if the Warlock took the nuke for their lvl 30 & 40 training spell.  Warlocks DO NOT get a secondary nuke thats not tied to another timer.  Wizards forget SOE unlocked Ball of Flames and Ball of Fire from each other...  Ballenger's Sapping Salvo and Nil Distortion are our 2 greatest nukes...  one is on a 9 second timer the other is an 18 second timer. </FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#33ccff>Wizards power cost is being looked into... but there is a price to pay for your quick take down ability. As the game flushes out... most all Wizards will have mana regen equipment and the only crux of your class will be moot.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Erowid on <SPAN class=date_text>03-23-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:25 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Wiziard is doing lower dps even to a single target. Wizards' spells cost A LOT MORE mana.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>QQ,  Once again you fail to recognize 2 things.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>1) Devastation is a Damage over time, not instant damage... it takes 20 seconds to do it full damage unlike Immoliation's 4.5 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>2) Devastation is an Area Effect spell, not a single target... thus the scenario you managed to convey will only work in limitee conditions because it will land on other mobs...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Talk to a lvl 50 Wizard... they can cast Ice Comet during a fight within the first 15 seconds... some use it as their 2nd Nuke... they assure me that it doesnt aggro them if the tank has adept taunts. I am really generious with my numbers.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Let me pick your post apart and show you your errors and miss-judgements.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>Nothing! I'm just telling you that wizard's biggest nuke - ice comet - is nothing more than 2 nil distortion, and it's dps is even lower than nil distortion and costs more mana. This is our level 50 spell! So sad, a level 50 spell should be much better than a level 37 spell!</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>However, warlock's level 50 spell - Devastation is a much better spell. There's no any AE dd or dot does damage close to it.  It is the best AE damage spell in dps-wise and dpm-wise.</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>DPS = Damage per Second</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99><STRONG>Ice Comet</STRONG> does 3,657 damage in 3 seconds....!   <STRONG>Nil Distortion</STRONG> does 1,930 damage in 2 seconds, then you have to wait another 18 seconds to cast again... then wait another 2 seconds for the spell to go off = 22 seconds to cast Nil Distortion x 2</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>The DPS on Ice Comet is 1,219.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>The DPS on Nil Distortion is 175.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>We have already discussed the limited use of Devastation in the above posts.... if you still don't grasp that it is not an instant spell, or even a fast DOT... it takes 20 SECONDS for it to complete. What I think your confusing about Devastation is that it has AWSOME mana efficiency. It can do ALOT of dmg for little mana.. if you can find the right time to use it. I have talked to many lvl 50 Warlocks and NON of them have used Devastation on anything more than greenies.. and the groups was put together solely to see what the spell can do.  I am told it is pretty much worthless except at an end of a Fight when it looks like everything is going bad for a party and the Warlock suicides himself by casting Devastation as a sacraficial lamb Leaving the party with a way better chance to gain control of the situation.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>Bellenger - Henreva - Nil distortion - Devastation - Dark pyre - Ballenger - Henreva</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>985 + 870 + 1,930 + 2,500 + 406 + 985 + 870 = 8,546 damage</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 3 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds +2 seconds = 15 seconds</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>Warlock is doing higher dps to a SINGLE TARGET! Not to mention when it comes to multi-target...</EM></FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>For the record, not all warlocks took Ballenger's Sapping Salvo(BSS) at lvl 30... and most didnt take Henrava's Viral Blast because of a really nice Root. Notice how I didn't use Westfend's in the Wizard chart, because it might stir up contraversy if I had.  Yet I use 2 training spells in mine to show the best possible dmg output for a Warlock... and you come back with a illogical response.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>First off your scenario would take over 29 seconds... because Devastation would still be ticking away for another 14 seconds. Secondly you assume that (again) EVERY Warlock has BSS & HVB...  I personally will be choosing the ll 40 Root over HVB, thus I will not have another Nuke to use... just BSS and Nil Distortion.  9 seconds snd 18 seconds casting times.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U><FONT color=#00cc99>Here what it would look like if you used Devastation:</FONT></U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>985 + 870 + 1,930 + <STRONG>500</STRONG> + 406 + 985 + 870 + <STRONG>500</STRONG> + <STRONG>500</STRONG> + <STRONG>500</STRONG> +<STRONG>500</STRONG> = 8,546</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + <STRONG>3 seconds</STRONG> + 2 seconds + 2 seconds +2 seconds + <STRONG>tick</STRONG> + <STRONG>5 seconds</STRONG> + <STRONG>5 seconds</STRONG> + <STRONG>5 seconds</STRONG> <EM>= <STRONG>30 seconds</STRONG></EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>It just goes to show you, that you have a limited grasp on the warlocks abilities... and made yourself believe that Wizards suck, because they are outdamage by Warlocks for 13 levels when you re-gain rightful ownership of " King of Nukes "</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>You cannot have EVERYTHING, there is a trade off with each class..... I believe the class your looking for is a Wizlock.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stone Rhino wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>LOL you still group Ice Comet and Nil Distortion together</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>your argue you can cast 2 Ball of Flames to my one Nil Distortion...and i can cast 2 Nil Distortion to your 1 Ice Comet...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That means you can cast 2 Ball of Flames <STRONG>AND</STRONG> one Ice Comet in the same time it takes me to cast 2 Nil Distortions... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you realize you have a spell called Ball of Flames??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>What alot of you dont realize is Ball of Flames is the best wizard DD, not Ice Comet.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>If you wanted to help your classes you should be trying to lower Ball of Flames mana cost, instead of complaing about warlocks.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by Victicus7 on <SPAN class=date_text>03-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:42 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I give up, really. To ppl who defend that ND and BoFl are comparable, even saying multiple times in this and the other thread about direct comparisment they are balanced to eachother i have nothing more to say besides this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                   Cast Time               Damage           Recast               Mana <DIV>Ball of Flames                  2                        500-900                 6                     167</DIV> <DIV>Nil Distortion                     2                      1300-2000             18                      42 (If it hits, if it has a FULL resist, 167)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now take a Calculator, or a first class schooler and do the extreme math to calculate how much Mana BoFl has to use to actually make it BALANCED.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For those ungifted witht he mathematical talent: <STRONG>21</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course my first post/replie was totally overlooked, not to mention that said person then proceeded to lecture me in OUT of Combat power regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: Ancient Slayer, Mini-Dragon on the EF Boatride, Fyst, to just name a few for the 51 ND vs 13 BoFl comparison. ANd the list goes on and on and on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you really wish to compare 50 Spells:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What mobs are there?</DIV> <DIV>   1 x # ^^</DIV> <DIV>   2 x # ^</DIV> <DIV>3-5 x #</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With all Chanters i group so far, they all said "nuke the # but with the # ^ i´ll gonna mez one" So i don´t see why you´re so uptight with your "I can´t use your Dev on so many targets" Philosophy. Only on the # ^ encounters you wouldn´t be able to use it. Big deal.</DIV> <DIV>Also If you now try to squirm yourself out by saying Raid mobs, tell you what:</DIV> <DIV>Dev works for a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]load of damage.</DIV> <DIV>IC does NOT work. Zero, zip, nada, nix, null, pustekuchen.</DIV> <DIV>Pretty good comparion for 50 spells. So we´re bound to use BoFl and Immo, wow pretty murderous choices, ey?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have fun, maybe someday you will see and realize what i tried so badly to show up that is utterly obvious...</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Stone, you first have to state what you feel is WRONG with Wizards before you can debate how they should compair to Warlocks. What is your underlying arguement... Wizards don't get big enough Nukes... or Wizards spell uses too much power (mana) ...?   Which is it..?  BTW...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG><U>Nil Distortion and Ball of Flames are compairable</U></STRONG>.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-They are both given at lvl 37</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-They are both Nukes</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-They are both the same power cost</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-They both have the same DPS</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-BoF has half the casting time while ND has twice the casting time.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-Nil Distortion is 2 x as efficient but is also on the same timer as the Warlocks other great nuke, leaving us essentially with 1 Nuke.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>-Nil Distortion get resisted... we have to wait another 18 seconds, Wizards can fire up Ball of Fire then come back with Ball of Flames.... Warlocks are still waiting.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>NOBODY is argueing the Wizards power cost.....  SOE needs to (and is) looking into this.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Now,</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><EM>With all Chanters i group so far, they all said "nuke the # but with the # ^ i´ll gonna mez one" So i don´t see why you´re so uptight with your "I can´t use your Dev on so many targets" Philosophy. Only on the # ^ encounters you wouldn´t be able to use it. Big deal.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM>Also If you now try to squirm yourself out by saying Raid mobs, tell you what:</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM>Dev works for a [<STRONG>expletive ninja'd by Faarbot</STRONG>]load of damage.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM>IC does NOT work. Zero, zip, nada, nix, null, pustekuchen.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM>Pretty good comparion for 50 spells. So we´re bound to use BoFl and Immo, wow pretty murderous choices, ey?</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>I can bearly understand what your trying to say..... but read this next line carefully...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG>DEVASTATION IS NOT ONLY AN <U>A</U>REA <U>E</U>FFECT SPELL,  IT IS ALSO A <U>D</U>AMAGE <U>O</U>VER <U>T</U>IME ...!!</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>What that means is, it doesnt matter if the Chanter mez all the mobs, in 5 seconds Devastation will tick again...and break mez and those mobs will either run after the Healer or the Warlock.  If the enchanter Mez's again... in another 5 seconds it will again tick and break Mez once more... it will do this for 20 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Ice Comet doesnt work on Raid mobs...?</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Stone Rhino wrote:</P> <P>What mobs are there?</P> <DIV> <DIV>  1 x # ^^</DIV> <DIV>   2 x # ^</DIV> <DIV>3-5 x #</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Grouped  MOB's are many different ways. There are also</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>1 x # ^^^ + 2 x ^^  (raid encounters)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>4 x ^</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>There are many different configerations... any ^ mob in a group renders casting Devastation usless... becasue a Wizard or Warlock cannot tkae more than 2-3 hits from a Yellow one-up mob.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </P> <P><BR></P> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT></DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>QQ,  Once again you fail to recognize 2 things.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>1) Devastation is a Damage over time, not instant damage... it takes 20 seconds to do it full damage unlike Immoliation's 4.5 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>So what? Do you always end your fight in like 3sec or 5sec? If the fight lasts over 20sec, devastation will do full damage!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>2) Devastation is an Area Effect spell, not a single target... thus the scenario you managed to convey will only work in limitee conditions because it will land on other mobs...</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>What's bad to hit other mobs? So you're saying devastation would be a better spell if it only hits single target???</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Talk to a lvl 50 Wizard... they can cast Ice Comet during a fight within the first 15 seconds... some use it as their 2nd Nuke... they assure me that it doesnt aggro them if the tank has adept taunts. I am really generious with my numbers.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Let me pick your post apart and show you your errors and miss-judgements.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>Nothing! I'm just telling you that wizard's biggest nuke - ice comet - is nothing more than 2 nil distortion, and it's dps is even lower than nil distortion and costs more mana. This is our level 50 spell! So sad, a level 50 spell should be much better than a level 37 spell!</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>However, warlock's level 50 spell - Devastation is a much better spell. There's no any AE dd or dot does damage close to it.  It is the best AE damage spell in dps-wise and dpm-wise.</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>DPS = Damage per Second</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99><STRONG>Ice Comet</STRONG> does 3,657 damage in 3 seconds....!   <STRONG>Nil Distortion</STRONG> does 1,930 damage in 2 seconds, then you have to wait another 18 seconds to cast again... then wait another 2 seconds for the spell to go off = 22 seconds to cast Nil Distortion x 2</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>The DPS on Ice Comet is 1,219.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>The DPS on Nil Distortion is 175.</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Good! If you like to calculate DSP this way...</FONT></DIV> <DIV>The DPS on Nil Distortion is: 1930 / 2 = 965</DIV> <DIV>The DPS on Ball of Flames is: 948 / (2+6+2) = 95</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>OMG! Nil distortion is doing TEN TIMES MORE dps than ball of flames...lol</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>We have already discussed the limited use of Devastation in the above posts.... if you still don't grasp that it is not an instant spell, or even a fast DOT... it takes 20 SECONDS for it to complete. What I think your confusing about Devastation is that it has AWSOME mana efficiency. It can do ALOT of dmg for little mana.. if you can find the right time to use it. I have talked to many lvl 50 Warlocks and NON of them have used Devastation on anything more than greenies.. and the groups was put together solely to see what the spell can do.  I am told it is pretty much worthless except at an end of a Fight when it looks like everything is going bad for a party and the Warlock suicides himself by casting Devastation as a sacraficial lamb Leaving the party with a way better chance to gain control of the situation.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Both devastation and ice comet have aggro problem. If I cast ice comet on a ^^ mob at the begining of the fight, it'll kill me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>Bellenger - Henreva - Nil distortion - Devastation - Dark pyre - Ballenger - Henreva</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>985 + 870 + 1,930 + 2,500 + 406 + 985 + 870 = 8,546 damage</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + 3 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds +2 seconds = 15 seconds</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>Warlock is doing higher dps to a SINGLE TARGET! Not to mention when it comes to multi-target...</EM></FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>For the record, not all warlocks took Ballenger's Sapping Salvo(BSS) at lvl 30... and most didnt take Henrava's Viral Blast because of a really nice Root. Notice how I didn't use Westfend's in the Wizard chart, because it might stir up contraversy if I had.  Yet I use 2 training spells in mine to show the best possible dmg output for a Warlock... and you come back with a illogical response.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>First off your scenario would take over 29 seconds... because Devastation would still be ticking away for another 14 seconds. Secondly you assume that (again) EVERY Warlock has BSS & HVB...  I personally will be choosing the ll 40 Root over HVB, thus I will not have another Nuke to use... just BSS and Nil Distortion.  9 seconds snd 18 seconds casting times.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just took your example, redid the cast-order, and added devastation.</DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT></U></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT></U></STRONG> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U><FONT color=#00cc99>Here what it would look like if you used Devastation:</FONT></U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>985 + 870 + 1,930 + <STRONG>500</STRONG> + 406 + 985 + 870 + <STRONG>500</STRONG> + <STRONG>500</STRONG> + <STRONG>500</STRONG> +<STRONG>500</STRONG> = 8,546</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>2 seconds + 2 seconds + 2 seconds + <STRONG>3 seconds</STRONG> + 2 seconds + 2 seconds +2 seconds + <STRONG>tick</STRONG> + <STRONG>5 seconds</STRONG> + <STRONG>5 seconds</STRONG> + <STRONG>5 seconds</STRONG> <EM>= <STRONG>30 seconds</STRONG></EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>It just goes to show you, that you have a limited grasp on the warlocks abilities... and made yourself believe that Wizards suck, because they are outdamage by Warlocks for 13 levels when you re-gain rightful ownership of " King of Nukes "</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>You cannot have EVERYTHING, there is a trade off with each class..... I believe the class your looking for is a Wizlock.</FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>1. On a single target (group mob, not solo one): A warlock is doing 0%~30% more dps than a wizard.</P> <P>2. On multi-targets: A warlock is doing up to 400% more dps than a wizard.</P> <P>3. All wizard's spells have very poor dpm (damage per mana) compared to warlock's spells.</P>

[GnomanWarri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Balbaroth wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hello everyone ,  i was passing by checking the wizard message boards and we see alot of people arguing about wizs/warlocks has to be same damage or some same ratio, both class are worthy dps kings in my book. Wizards saying ice comet is not great compared to the aoe spells the warlock have, well i can only respond like this...  My 50 Wizard is on Kilticor server hes named Ragnor and i was lucky enough to have my Ice comet master spell drop :smileysurprised: i still remember the day i got it at lvl 42 in feerott, with my Ice comet i do 3800-4528 with one cast, that kind of burst damage is just sick if stack up immolation ball of flames dots etc... i drop double arrows mobs hp by 35-40% just with one cast of Ice comet , i wish i had a picture to prove it but u can check the highest magical damage on kilticor server and im the top dog :smileyvery-happy: that only for the nukin area , another thing we are loved to is for our power battery spells , this ability is really incredible the number of time i helped healers and main tank when they were oom agaist real ruff encouter epic mobs which make YOU (the wizard) the hero of the day.. yes warlocks get aoe drain mana but if u dont want to attract attention while feeding others its better to drain yourself hehe they only need to fix Truss root spell since its rather broken :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  As it of now the wizard for me is far more desirable than a warlock so wizards dont despair we rules!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                   Ragnor, </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                           lvl 50 Wizard </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                                                                                             Kilticor Server </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The best post yet..... thnx<BR>

[GnomanWarri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Victicus7 wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Devastation is the warlock unique spell...wizards have nothing that can compare to it... Devastation is THE defining spell of the warlock.</P> <P>Ice Comet is the wizard unique spell...warlocks have nothing that can compare to it...Ice Comet is what makes a wizard, a wizard.</P> <P>if you have a problem with Ice Comet...then ask for Ice Comet to be fixed!!!  Ask for more damage on it, or a shorter recast, or lower mana cost, or make it AE, hell i dont care. Just don't try to compare it to a warlock spell...theres simply nothing a warlock has that is similar to ice comet!</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>1. "Devastation is the warlock unique spell...wizards have nothing that can compare to it"<BR>    I agree with this. Wizards dont have any AE spells (dd or dot) does damage close to devastation. <BR>    Firey pulse = 5+15 cast/recast time = 250 max damage.<BR>    Devastation = 3+45 cast/recast time = 2500 max damage.<BR>    The dps of these two spells = 12.5 : 52. Devastation is doing 4 times more dps than firey pulse.<BR> <BR>2. "Ice Comet is the wizard unique spell...warlocks have nothing that can compare to it"<BR>    You're wrong. Warlock's nil destrotion does even or more dps than ice comet. (though I dont really want to compare these two spells...)<BR>    Ice comet = 3+45 cast/recast time = 3600 max damage.<BR>    Nil distortion = 2+18 cast recast time = 2000 max damage.<BR>    The dps of these two spells = 75 : 100. Ice comet is only doing 75% the dps of nil distortion.<BR> <BR>3. Yes we've asked soe to fix some of our spells. <BR>   My suggestion: Firey pulse needs to do 1000 damage. Ice comet needs to do 5000 damage.<BR>   And, wizard and warlock are two very similar classes. I dont see why we shouldnt compare to each other.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by QQFatman on <SPAN class=date_text>03-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:50 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Man, I am trying to stay partial here..  but your math doesnt work.  O've notice in all your post (iv'e quoted this one) that you keep repeating yourself and NOTHING anyone has said has sunk in. You yourself, make mental mistakes as- if you class is so downtrodden when the only issue people are really discussing is that SOE reduces the power cost on 3 spells  & obvousily fix a few spells like Peircing icecles.</P> <P>Example of tainted thinking:  </P> <P><EM><FONT color=#999999>Ice comet = 3+45 cast/recast time = 3600 max damage.<BR>    Nil distortion = 2+18 cast recast time = 2000 max damage.<BR>    The dps of these two spells = 75 : 100. Ice comet is only doing 75% the dps of nil distortion.</FONT></EM></P> <P>Nil Distortion has to be casted twice, therefore it takes 2 seconds to cast, and 18 seconds to recast, then another 2 to cast again. It will take 22 seconds for a warlock to put out roughly 3,860 damage, when a Wizard can do 3,657 in 3 seconds ....!!! </P> <P>As another poster has already given the basics for DPS... I thought I would bring this to your attention to that this thread can start becomming contructive for use Wizards. We need to come together as a whole and let SOE see our mana/power problem so they can fix it. Warlocks don't do more dmg than wizards.. they do have a nice spell, but that won't help US WIZARDS get fixed. Ball of Flames & Ball of Fire need 20% redux in power.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GnomanWarrior wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Man, I am trying to stay partial here..  but your math doesnt work.  O've notice in all your post (iv'e quoted this one) that you keep repeating yourself and NOTHING anyone has said has sunk in. You yourself, make mental mistakes as- if you class is so downtrodden when the only issue people are really discussing is that SOE reduces the power cost on 3 spells  & obvousily fix a few spells like Peircing icecles.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Example of tainted thinking: </P> <P><EM><FONT color=#999999>Ice comet = 3+45 cast/recast time = 3600 max damage.<BR>   Nil distortion = 2+18 cast recast time = 2000 max damage.<BR>   The dps of these two spells = 75 : 100. Ice comet is only doing 75% the dps of nil distortion.</FONT></EM></P> <P>Nil Distortion has to be casted twice, therefore it takes 2 seconds to cast, and 18 seconds to recast, then another 2 to cast again. It will take 22 seconds for a warlock to put out roughly 3,860 damage, when a Wizard can do 3,657 in 3 seconds ....!!!<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You have no idea what you're talking about! Dont tell me you always end your fight in 3 sec. The DPS calculation is very simple: damage / (cast+recast) = DPS. This is common sense.</DIV>

[Erow]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>QQ, once again.... you must read an entire post before you can draw a conclusion or argument. You cannot line-item-veto a post when the end of the post proves the beginning.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>So what? Do you always end your fight in like 3sec or 5sec? If the fight lasts over 20sec, devastation will do full damage!</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>I said </FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>QQ,  Once again you fail to recognize 2 things.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>1) Devastation is a Damage over time, not instant damage... it takes 20 seconds to do it full damage unlike Immoliation's 4.5 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>2) Devastation is an Area Effect spell, not a single target... thus the scenario you managed to convey will only work in limitee conditions because it will land on other mobs...</FONT><FONT color=#33ccff>!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>That is ONE point I was making with 2 parts.  It has 2 restriction over a DD spell. I am trying to get you to recognize this. Once you understand that... then we can discuss further about how it is used. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Yes, If the tank pulls a single mob Devastation can be used and if the fight last over 20 seconds itwill do full damage.... and just wasted a shiz load of mana too. It's situational... meaning that it has to be a "cluth" call of wasting mana on Devastation for one mob for the added dmg is worth it... or just fireing off another Nil Distortion near the end would be better.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#ffffff>What's bad to hit other mobs? So you're saying devastation would be a better spell if it only hits single target???</FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Your a wizard, you tell me how bad this would be fore YOU.  Tank pulls 4- lvl 52 Mobs,  All assist the tank (MA) and the other mobs are mezed or AE rooted. You accidentally use Immoliation on another mob... and he comes after you.  What do you do ..?  What does the group do...?  Do you know understand Devistation...?  it just doesnt accidentally hit 1 Mob, it hits all of them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>Good! If you like to calculate DSP this way...</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>The DPS on Nil Distortion is: 1930 / 2 = 965</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>The DPS on Ball of Flames is: 948 / (2+6+2) = 95</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>If I calculate DPS this way ..???  There is only 1 way to calculate Damage per Second, but I do know what your getting at... but,  you must first acknowledge an overwhelimg point....  that Wizards can do 3,657 dmg in an extremely short time.  Now to be able to do that again, it take 45 seconds... but that in no way takes away from 3 seconds = 3,657 dmg. A mob is running, or just turned on the healer and he's going down fast..... WHACK !   That the real power of of the Wizard.  It's not found in the numbers or in the dmg parse or even in the mana requirments, it the overwhelming power of the wizrds that they can dish out damage like no other.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>What is your little calculation trying to convey (up in white) ..??  The formula is very wrong or incomplete if I gather what your trying to do.... and ONCE again your mental impairment of BELIEVING Wizards are gimped is in the way.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><U><FONT color=#33ccff>Damage per second:</FONT></U></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG>Nil Distortion</STRONG> is: 1,930 / 2 = 965</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG>Ball of Flames</STRONG> is: 948 / 2 = 474</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG>Ball of Flames x 2</STRONG> is: 1,896 / 10 = 189</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>OMG! Nil distortion is doing TEN TIMES MORE dps than ball of flames...lol  </FONT><FONT color=#33ccff>No, you just don't know how to calculate</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>But again... you have to take the Wizards spell list into context. SOE removed the shared timer with <STRONG>Ball of Fire</STRONG> and <STRONG>Ball of Flames</STRONG>, they DID NOT remove the shared timer of Dark Distortion and Nil Distortion... we can only use one or the other. So while Nil Distortions DPS is higher than 2 Ball of Flames.. you can also toss in Ball of Fire while you are waiting for Ball of Flames 6 seconds timer to expire. We have no other great nuke. Warlock have Dark Distortion (lvl 23), Nil Distortion (lvl 37)... THATS IT. (</FONT><EM><FONT color=#66ffff>I have removed training spell from this discussion and are talkin pure spell list, casue I am told by a few lvl 50 Wizards they get off 2 Ice Comets per pull usually and don't rely on training spells at all.</FONT></EM>)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>So instead of taking the DPS of 2 spells and compairing them, you MUST take the DPS of the spell that cleary are ment for a WIzards Burst of damage...   Wizard are not stuck with only 1 Nuke, they have 3 major nukes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><U><FONT color=#33ccff>Damage per second:</FONT></U></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG>Nil Distortion</STRONG> is: 1,930 / 2 = 965</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG>Ball of Flames</STRONG> is: 948 / 2 = 474</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG>Ball of Flames </STRONG>is: 948,  <STRONG>Ball of Fire</STRONG> is: 670,  <STRONG>Ball of Flames</STRONG> is: 948 = 2,566 / 8 seconds (</FONT><FONT color=#66ffff>2 seconds + 3 seconds + wait 3 seconds + 2 seconds</FONT>)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Which is 320 DPS @ 2,566 damage.  Now here is the kicker... if you want to compair this real time scenario to 2 casts of Nil Distortion this is were the Wizards SHINE.  Yes, yes... you are going to go threw ALOT of mana... this is not in disput, but WIzards DPS is in fact massivly higher than a Warlock @ lvl 50 when talking strickly about direct damage.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV><EM>Both devastation and ice comet have aggro problem. If I cast ice comet on a ^^ mob at the begining of the fight, it'll kill me.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>NO...!!  Ice Comet is instant damage it can be casted at any time during the fight and it's effect will be felt immediatly.  You choose when to cast Ice Comet and on what mob. Devastation needs TIME to do it's damage... thus there is pressure to cast it early to maximize it potential and get every tick of of it. Ice Comet's aggro is managble.. it casted on the mob the Main Tank is fighting and the tank is already high on the hate list. Devastation has no such shelter.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>1. On a single target (group mob, not solo one): A warlock is doing 0%~30% more dps than a wizard.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>2. On multi-targets: A warlock is doing up to 400% more dps than a wizard.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>3. All wizard's spells have very poor dpm (damage per mana) compared to warlock's spells.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>1) <STRONG>Wrong</STRONG>, on single targets is where the Wizard can do the most DPS compaired to Warlocks.... how can you not see this. It very simple in just 2 spells (<STRONG>Immoliation</STRONG> and <STRONG>Ice Comet</STRONG>) the wizard can do 5,504 damage.  2 SPELLS !!!!!!</P> <P>2) On Multiple targets a Warlock has the <STRONG>MIGHT</STRONG> be able to do 400% more DPS... Out of 50 pulls a WIzard will use Ice Comet on all 50, where as a Warlock Might cast Devastation 3 times.  6%</P> <P>3) It's called Mana efficiency...  WIzards deal damage faster and more of it... they have a trade off, their spells cost more mana. Albeit WE ALL BELEIVE it too much... and thats why SOE are looking into it. </P> <P>But you cannot compair your mana to Warlocks spells because they are a different class....  it's like compairing them to Necro's.... their mana efficienct is outstanding, they summon 1 pet (spell) and it does 90% of all their damage.  Warlocks are complaining about that. </P> <P><STRONG>QQfatman,</STRONG> what you need to do is discuss this with your fellow Wizards and start a constructive thread about how in-efficient Wizards spells are and get alot of Wizards to sign the thread (post on it) and bring the Wizard community together and let SOE know you mean business. <EM><FONT color=#66ccff><FONT color=#66ffff>Complaining that Warlocks are better... doesnt make Wizards better</FONT>.</FONT></EM></P> <P> </P> <P> </P></FONT></DIV></DIV>

[GnomanWarri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GnomanWarrior wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Man, I am trying to stay partial here..  but your math doesnt work.  O've notice in all your post (iv'e quoted this one) that you keep repeating yourself and NOTHING anyone has said has sunk in. You yourself, make mental mistakes as- if you class is so downtrodden when the only issue people are really discussing is that SOE reduces the power cost on 3 spells  & obvousily fix a few spells like Peircing icecles.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Example of tainted thinking: </P> <P><EM><FONT color=#999999>Ice comet = 3+45 cast/recast time = 3600 max damage.<BR>   Nil distortion = 2+18 cast recast time = 2000 max damage.<BR>   The dps of these two spells = 75 : 100. Ice comet is only doing 75% the dps of nil distortion.</FONT></EM></P> <P>Nil Distortion has to be casted twice, therefore it takes 2 seconds to cast, and 18 seconds to recast, then another 2 to cast again. It will take 22 seconds for a warlock to put out roughly 3,860 damage, when a Wizard can do 3,657 in 3 seconds ....!!!<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You have no idea what you're talking about! Dont tell me you always end your fight in 3 sec. The DPS calculation is very simple: damage / (cast+recast) = DPS. This is common sense.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>DPS has nothing to do with when you end the fight or when you start the fight... it a sole calculation upon when you cast the spel to when it does it's dmg. Recast is only factored in when there is a RECAST.  And if your factoring is recast, you have to 9as said by another) look at the spells list of th classes and see what else can be insterted into the gap of time to push the DPS calculation up... thus the Wizards have the spell single spell for DPS and the best over all list of spells to fill that gap.  Our Immoliation only takes 4.5 seconds.. it awsome.. it equal to nil Distortion is dmg and does about the same dmg, yet we get ice Comet, and 2 x BOF</P> <P> </P>

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>/snip</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>But you cannot compair your mana to Warlocks spells because they are a different class....  it's like compairing them to Necro's.... their mana efficienct is outstanding, they summon 1 pet (spell) and it does 90% of all their damage.  Warlocks are complaining about that. </FONT></DIV> <P>/snip<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I've been looking at efficiency the last couple days, this statement is false.  I would love to get some hard numbers from the sorcerers but so far it looks like necro's have about 30% (probably less but erring on the side of caution til I get some hard numbers) the efficiency of sorcerers.  Necro's do about 3.5 damage per power spent on average... I know both wizards and warlocks are waaaaaay above that.  Feel free to take a gander at <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=5205" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=5205</A> as I would love to get ya'll's perspective on power costs.<BR>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GnomanWarrior wrote:<BR> <P><BR>DPS has nothing to do with when you end the fight or when you start the fight... it a sole calculation upon when you cast the spel to when it does it's dmg. Recast is only factored in when there is a RECAST.  And if your factoring is recast, you have to 9as said by another) look at the spells list of th classes and see what else can be insterted into the gap of time to push the DPS calculation up... thus the Wizards have the spell single spell for DPS and the best over all list of spells to fill that gap.  Our Immoliation only takes 4.5 seconds.. it awsome.. it equal to nil Distortion is dmg and does about the same dmg, yet we get ice Comet, and 2 x BOF<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Again, DPS of a spell = spell damage / (cast + recast). You have to count the recast time in. It is the AVERAGE damage a second over a period of time (and the time lenght shouldnt change the DPS.)

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>QQ, once again.... you must read an entire post before you can draw a conclusion or argument. You cannot line-item-veto a post when the end of the post proves the beginning.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>So what? Do you always end your fight in like 3sec or 5sec? If the fight lasts over 20sec, devastation will do full damage!</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>I said </FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>QQ,  Once again you fail to recognize 2 things.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>1) Devastation is a Damage over time, not instant damage... it takes 20 seconds to do it full damage unlike Immoliation's 4.5 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>2) Devastation is an Area Effect spell, not a single target... thus the scenario you managed to convey will only work in limitee conditions because it will land on other mobs...</FONT><FONT color=#33ccff>!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>That is ONE point I was making with 2 parts.  It has 2 restriction over a DD spell. I am trying to get you to recognize this. Once you understand that... then we can discuss further about how it is used. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Yes, If the tank pulls a single mob Devastation can be used and if the fight last over 20 seconds itwill do full damage.... and just wasted a shiz load of mana too. It's situational... meaning that it has to be a "cluth" call of wasting mana on Devastation for one mob for the added dmg is worth it... or just fireing off another Nil Distortion near the end would be better.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Wasted a lot of mana??? Stop saying a warlock is wasting a lot of mana in front of a wizard..lol</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Now we're talking about DPS, there's nothing to do to mana cost. If you count that in, I'd say ball of flames has the worst DPM ever so I'll not be using it so I'll have very low dps.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#ffffff>What's bad to hit other mobs? So you're saying devastation would be a better spell if it only hits single target???</FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Your a wizard, you tell me how bad this would be fore YOU.  Tank pulls 4- lvl 52 Mobs,  All assist the tank (MA) and the other mobs are mezed or AE rooted. You accidentally use Immoliation on another mob... and he comes after you.  What do you do ..?  What does the group do...?  Do you know understand Devistation...?  it just doesnt accidentally hit 1 Mob, it hits all of them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>So you'd like it to hit only 1 target, right??</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>Good! If you like to calculate DSP this way...</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>The DPS on Nil Distortion is: 1930 / 2 = 965</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff><EM>The DPS on Ball of Flames is: 948 / (2+6+2) = 95</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>If I calculate DPS this way ..???  There is only 1 way to calculate Damage per Second, but I do know what your getting at... but,  you must first acknowledge an overwhelimg point....  that Wizards can do 3,657 dmg in an extremely short time.  Now to be able to do that again, it take 45 seconds... but that in no way takes away from 3 seconds = 3,657 dmg. A mob is running, or just turned on the healer and he's going down fast..... WHACK !   That the real power of of the Wizard.  It's not found in the numbers or in the dmg parse or even in the mana requirments, it the overwhelming power of the wizrds that they can dish out damage like no other.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>What is your little calculation trying to convey (up in white) ..??  The formula is very wrong or incomplete if I gather what your trying to do.... and ONCE again your mental impairment of BELIEVING Wizards are gimped is in the way.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><U><FONT color=#33ccff>Damage per second:</FONT></U></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG>Nil Distortion</STRONG> is: 1,930 / 2 = 965</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG>Ball of Flames</STRONG> is: 948 / 2 = 474</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG>Ball of Flames x 2</STRONG> is: 1,896 / 10 = 189</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>You're totally wrong. Do you know there's a sepll called harm touch? It shadowknight's spell. It does like 400 damage and has a ZERO sec cast time. So what's its dps? 400 / 0 = infinity. NO! You have to count the recast time in. And DPS is an AVERAGE number. This is common sense.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>OMG! Nil distortion is doing TEN TIMES MORE dps than ball of flames...lol  </FONT><FONT color=#33ccff>No, you just don't know how to calculate</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>But again... you have to take the Wizards spell list into context. SOE removed the shared timer with <STRONG>Ball of Fire</STRONG> and <STRONG>Ball of Flames</STRONG>, they DID NOT remove the shared timer of Dark Distortion and Nil Distortion... we can only use one or the other. So while Nil Distortions DPS is higher than 2 Ball of Flames.. you can also toss in Ball of Fire while you are waiting for Ball of Flames 6 seconds timer to expire. We have no other great nuke. Warlock have Dark Distortion (lvl 23), Nil Distortion (lvl 37)... THATS IT. (</FONT><EM><FONT color=#66ffff>I have removed training spell from this discussion and are talkin pure spell list, casue I am told by a few lvl 50 Wizards they get off 2 Ice Comets per pull usually and don't rely on training spells at all.</FONT></EM>)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>So instead of taking the DPS of 2 spells and compairing them, you MUST take the DPS of the spell that cleary are ment for a WIzards Burst of damage...   Wizard are not stuck with only 1 Nuke, they have 3 major nukes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><U><FONT color=#33ccff>Damage per second:</FONT></U></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG>Nil Distortion</STRONG> is: 1,930 / 2 = 965</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG>Ball of Flames</STRONG> is: 948 / 2 = 474</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG>Ball of Flames </STRONG>is: 948,  <STRONG>Ball of Fire</STRONG> is: 670,  <STRONG>Ball of Flames</STRONG> is: 948 = 2,566 / 8 seconds (</FONT><FONT color=#66ffff>2 seconds + 3 seconds + wait 3 seconds + 2 seconds</FONT>)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Which is 320 DPS @ 2,566 damage.  Now here is the kicker... if you want to compair this real time scenario to 2 casts of Nil Distortion this is were the Wizards SHINE.  Yes, yes... you are going to go threw ALOT of mana... this is not in disput, but WIzards DPS is in fact massivly higher than a Warlock @ lvl 50 when talking strickly about direct damage.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>320 DPS @ 2566 damage??? How about nil distortion? 1930 / 2 = 965. So according to your way to calculate, nil has 3 times more dps than wizard's chain-casting spells..</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV><EM>Both devastation and ice comet have aggro problem. If I cast ice comet on a ^^ mob at the begining of the fight, it'll kill me.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>NO...!!  Ice Comet is instant damage it can be casted at any time during the fight and it's effect will be felt immediatly.  You choose when to cast Ice Comet and on what mob. Devastation needs TIME to do it's damage... thus there is pressure to cast it early to maximize it potential and get every tick of of it. Ice Comet's aggro is managble.. it casted on the mob the Main Tank is fighting and the tank is already high on the hate list. Devastation has no such shelter.</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>You can cast devastation when a ^^ mob has like 1/2 hp. It is very easy to learn when to cast a high damage dot. It usually takes 30~60sec to kill a high level ^^ mob.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>1. On a single target (group mob, not solo one): A warlock is doing 0%~30% more dps than a wizard.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>2. On multi-targets: A warlock is doing up to 400% more dps than a wizard.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>3. All wizard's spells have very poor dpm (damage per mana) compared to warlock's spells.</FONT></P> <P>1) <STRONG>Wrong</STRONG>, on single targets is where the Wizard can do the most DPS compaired to Warlocks.... how can you not see this. It very simple in just 2 spells (<STRONG>Immoliation</STRONG> and <STRONG>Ice Comet</STRONG>) the wizard can do 5,504 damage.  2 SPELLS !!!!!!</P> <P><FONT size=2><FONT size=1><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></FONT></P></FONT> <HR> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Warlocks have many good damage spells too. YOU, are the one who choose not to cast them and sit there doing nothing.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2></FONT></P> <HR> <P></P> <P>2) On Multiple targets a Warlock has the <STRONG>MIGHT</STRONG> be able to do 400% more DPS... Out of 50 pulls a WIzard will use Ice Comet on all 50, where as a Warlock Might cast Devastation 3 times.  6%</P> <P></P> <HR> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Again, devastation can be used in single target. Most of fights last long enough for devastation to do its full damage. It is not hard to learn when to cast it.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P></P> <P>3) It's called Mana efficiency...  WIzards deal damage faster and more of it... they have a trade off, their spells cost more mana. Albeit WE ALL BELEIVE it too much... and thats why SOE are looking into it. </P> <P></P> <HR> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>WIzards deal damage faster? Yes in the first 3 sec if I cast ice comet. But it doesnt mean anything. As I said, most of fights last long enough for devastation to do its full damage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Wizards deal more damage? No. On a single target, both classes do about the same damage. (if the warlock is not sitting there doing nothing lol) On multi-targets, warlocks can easily use group root -> devastation to do 400% more dps than wizards. Devastation kills 4 no arrowed mobs before the root breaks.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Mana cost: Yes we all agree wizards have this problem. </FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P></P> <P>But you cannot compair your mana to Warlocks spells because they are a different class....  it's like compairing them to Necro's.... their mana efficienct is outstanding, they summon 1 pet (spell) and it does 90% of all their damage.  Warlocks are complaining about that. </P><STRONG> <P></P></STRONG> <HR> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Wizard and warlock are very similar classes. You should always compare warlock to wizard, not warlock to necromancer.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P></P> <P><STRONG>QQfatman,</STRONG> what you need to do is discuss this with your fellow Wizards and start a constructive thread about how in-efficient Wizards spells are and get alot of Wizards to sign the thread (post on it) and bring the Wizard community together and let SOE know you mean business. <EM><FONT color=#66ccff><FONT color=#66ffff>Complaining that Warlocks are better... doesnt make Wizards better</FONT>.</FONT></EM><BR></P> <HR> <P></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>As I said, these two classes are very similar. I compare them to show SoE where the imbalanced parts are. I made a list of wizard broken spells. I'm only asking to reduce some spells mana cost and increase wizard's AE. I dont have problem if a warlock outdamage me by a little in a single target fight. But I dont like to see people saying wizards do much more damage on single target - which is not true.

[xsvhrs]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Again, DPS of a spell = spell damage / (cast + recast). You have to count the recast time in. It is the AVERAGE damage a second over a period of time (and the time lenght shouldnt change the DPS.)<BR></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Not always, no. You only have to count the recast if there is one. In an encounter, if a Wiz can get off 2 Ice Comets, then yes, you would count the recast time inbetween.  DPS for that spell, for that encounter = damage / (cast + recast)</P> <P>However, if the Wiz only has time to get off 1, then no, you do not count recast time. DPS for that spell, for that eno[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]er = damage/cast</P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[xsvhrs]

<P>Actaully, a better formular for calculating DPS for a spell would be....</P> <P> </P> <P>damage / times cast * (cast time + recast)-recast</P> <P>Since the damage is done upfront, you only count the recast in between the casts.</P> <P>Message Edited by xsvhrs on <SPAN class=date_text>03-25-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:03 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by xsvhrs on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:09 AM</span>

[dzenith]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Again, DPS of a spell = spell damage / (cast + recast). You have to count the recast time in. It is the AVERAGE damage a second over a period of time (and the time lenght shouldnt change the DPS.)<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <DIV>DPS of individual spells figured out this way is highly irrelevant though, as the recast time on spells when cast in sequence overlap each other.  To compare the dps of the 2 classes you would have to figure out the max dps repeatable chain of spells for each class and then compare. </DIV></DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<DIV>Ok this is what you guys think:<BR>Ice comet = 3600 / 3 = 1200 dps<BR>Nil distortion = 1900*2 / (2+18+2) = 172 dps<BR> <BR>So you guys agree with these as well?<BR>Nil distortion = 1900 / 2 = 950<BR>Ball of flames = 950*2 / (2+6+2) = 190<BR>And this:<BR>Harm touch = 400 / 0 = infinity dps</DIV>

[Asterra]

Well, if everyone is fixated on theoretical DPS rather than what you can see and parse for yourselves on raids and crawls, then let's at least correct what I thought was an obvious inaccuracy.  Devastation doesn't take "20 seconds to do full damage".  It takes six seconds.  One "tick" in devastation is 1.5 seconds.  Spells like this and Immolation are effectively too instantaneous for me to regard them as damage over time.

[QQ-Fatman]

<DIV>To whomever 1-stared all of my messages:</DIV> <DIV>Fine! If you'd only like to hear what you wanna hear, I will not reply to this thread anymore. Feel free to 1-star this message too. Goodbye!</DIV>

[GnomanWarri]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> El Chupacabras wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>/snip</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>But you cannot compair your mana to Warlocks spells because they are a different class....  it's like compairing them to Necro's.... their mana efficienct is outstanding, they summon 1 pet (spell) and it does 90% of all their damage.  Warlocks are complaining about that. </FONT></DIV> <P>/snip<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I've been looking at efficiency the last couple days, this statement is false.  I would love to get some hard numbers from the sorcerers but so far it looks like necro's have about 30% (probably less but erring on the side of caution til I get some hard numbers) the efficiency of sorcerers.  Necro's do about 3.5 damage per power spent on average... I know both wizards and warlocks are waaaaaay above that.  Feel free to take a gander at <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=5205" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=5205</A> as I would love to get ya'll's perspective on power costs.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ive been in groups with Necro's and been using a parse..  Over 50% of their dmg comes from their pet. It's closer to 60% from what i have witnessed. In CSM you see soimething like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Necro 2853 (1933)  the () is what the pet did..!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if 50% of their dmg comes from their pet.... that cost them only 300 mana 4 hours ago... they are extremly effcient class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[GnomanWarri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GnomanWarrior wrote:<BR> <P><BR>DPS has nothing to do with when you end the fight or when you start the fight... it a sole calculation upon when you cast the spel to when it does it's dmg. Recast is only factored in when there is a RECAST.  And if your factoring is recast, you have to 9as said by another) look at the spells list of th classes and see what else can be insterted into the gap of time to push the DPS calculation up... thus the Wizards have the spell single spell for DPS and the best over all list of spells to fill that gap.  Our Immoliation only takes 4.5 seconds.. it awsome.. it equal to nil Distortion is dmg and does about the same dmg, yet we get ice Comet, and 2 x BOF<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Again, DPS of a spell = spell damage / (cast + recast). You have to count the recast time in. It is the AVERAGE damage a second over a period of time (and the time lenght shouldnt change the DPS.)<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Nope, If a green mob has 4,000 hitpoints and you cast Ice Comet and your tank it it for 400 it is dead. Recast is a calculation the the CLASSes DPS, not a certain spell. If you don't recast the spell, then how is it factered into the damage per second you just did...?</P> <P>Damage over Time of the spell it what your talking about. It doesnt take Ice Comet 47 seconds to do damage.... it takes 2 seconds.</P>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <DIV>To whomever 1-stared all of my messages:</DIV> <DIV>Fine! If you'd only like to hear what you wanna hear, I will not reply to this thread anymore. Feel free to 1-star this message too. Goodbye!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Your rebuttle to my long post only restates what you've been saying for the last week.... yet me and other have stated compelling scenarios to show you the true power of the wizards.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff><STRONG>You cannot take ONE spell and repeated beat it to death to try and prove your point</STRONG>, without ackowledgeing that the Wizards themselves have a better arsenal of spells. Yes, Wizards are ineffcient with their spells... but they are almost TWICE as powerful as a warlock in pure dmg.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Warlocks have 2 main Nukes, <U>Dark Distortion</U>(23) and <U>Nil Distortion</U>(37)... <EM><STRONG>unfortunatly they are on the same timer</STRONG></EM>.  Whilist a Wizard get three USABLE main nukes;  <U>Ball of Fire</U>(23), <U>Ball of Flames</U>(37) and <U>Ice Comet</U>(50). Now, before you go running off at the mouth and screaming bloody murder... look at what I am trying to say. All these Wizards spells can be chain casted one right after the other... that is ALL I am saying.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>When need be, Wizard can mana dump and reek Havoc.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff size=4>Would you rather just get no Ice Comet and have Ball of Flames do 50% more dmg and use it from lvl 37 to lvl 50 and have it as your main nuke... or would you rather have it the way it is.....???</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV>

[Violator]

<DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Warlocks have 2 main Nukes, <U>Dark Distortion</U>(23) and <U>Nil Distortion</U>(37)... <EM><STRONG>unfortunatly they are on the same timer</STRONG></EM>. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P> </P> <P>Hmm... thought that was taken out about a month ago...</P>

[Alfred75]

OMG! This stupid debate is still going on..... <div></div>

[Fepp]

<blockquote><hr>Alfred75 wrote:OMG! This stupid debate is still going on..... <div></div><hr></blockquote>Heh - thats what I just thought

[Ba]

<DIV>Guys I agree that the Warlocks and Wizards are not balanced. But are they supposed to be? I know that Wizards are doing less damage in a group enounter and a bit less on a single mob, which will be fixed. In the 15 years I have been playing RPG's I can say that wizards AE's are not the greatest but the should always have the biggest single nukes and do the most damage to a single target. I think SOE should put more effort into makeing these to classes different by have one great at AE and one great at single targets, this would solve all of these problems. WIzards would feel great for haveing the biggest nukes and takeing down single mobs the best while warlocks would be able to take down a group of mobs in about the same time it would take a wizard to nuke them all individually. There has to be differences in classes otherwise what is the use of different classes. Well that is enough with my rant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Baeo</DIV>

[Yorc]

Honestly my biggest gripe is the power costs for our spells.  I'm living with the fact that a Warlock is gonna do more damage than me.  But any attempt to even come into the DPS realm of a Warlock leaves me drained of mana while the Warlock is still at around half his power. Decrease the resists to and power usage for our nukes and I will live with it.  Would be nice to have similar DPS at least on a single MOB but it's not gonna happen.  8 pages and not once has a dev even bothered to respond.  Doubtful they will do anything.

[El Chupacabr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GnomanWarrior wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>Ive been in groups with Necro's and been using a parse..  Over 50% of their dmg comes from their pet. It's closer to 60% from what i have witnessed. In CSM you see soimething like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Necro 2853 (1933)  the () is what the pet did..!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if 50% of their dmg comes from their pet.... that cost them only 300 mana 4 hours ago... they are extremly effcient class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Pets cost about 100 power every 10 seconds, give or take a little.  The last pet has an efficiency rating of about 4.6:1, not very efficient at all.</DIV>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Violatortn wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Warlocks have 2 main Nukes, <U>Dark Distortion</U>(23) and <U>Nil Distortion</U>(37)... <EM><STRONG>unfortunatly they are on the same timer</STRONG></EM>. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>Hmm... thought that was taken out about a month ago...</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Sorry, Dark Distortion and Nil Distortion are on the same timer.... basically Nil is the replacment for Dark.  What you thought you read was that WIzards Ball of Fire & Ball of Flames timers we removed...so you basically assumed it was the same for Warlocks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>This thread is getting very tireing... only because some people look at each spell instead of the entire spell line.  It's time you looked up some lvl 50 WIzards and spoke to them (like I have)... none of them like going low on mana during a battle... but they all will tell you that it's intoxicating as hell to mana dump and burn holes in Mobs when the party is in trouble. Yes, you have a longer recovery... and thats why Bat Idols and potions are for... but your alive and thanks to the Wizards ability to dump mobs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>On the contrary, Warlocks are persistant, constant damage dealers that are extremely effcient, but in no way can touch the "afterburn" effect of the Wizard.  Problem is, in a crisis a Warlock doesnt do anything different than when normal pulls come. Wizards are conservative and calculating.... but when need be can go threw thier whole mana bar within 60 seconds...  thats impressive.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV>

[Draw4wi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Violatortn wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Warlocks have 2 main Nukes, <U>Dark Distortion</U>(23) and <U>Nil Distortion</U>(37)... <EM><STRONG>unfortunatly they are on the same timer</STRONG></EM>. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>Hmm... thought that was taken out about a month ago...</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Sorry, Dark Distortion and Nil Distortion are on the same timer.... basically Nil is the replacment for Dark.  What you thought you read was that WIzards Ball of Fire & Ball of Flames timers we removed...so you basically assumed it was the same for Warlocks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>This thread is getting very tireing... only because some people look at each spell instead of the entire spell line.  It's time you looked up some lvl 50 WIzards and spoke to them (like I have)... none of them like going low on mana during a battle... but they all will tell you that it's intoxicating as hell to mana dump and burn holes in Mobs when the party is in trouble. Yes, you have a longer recovery... and thats why Bat Idols and potions are for... but your alive and thanks to the Wizards ability to dump mobs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>On the contrary, Warlocks are persistant, constant damage dealers that are extremely effcient, but in no way can touch the "afterburn" effect of the Wizard.  Problem is, in a crisis a Warlock doesnt do anything different than when normal pulls come. Wizards are conservative and calculating.... but when need be can go threw thier whole mana bar within 60 seconds...  thats impressive.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=72" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=72</A></P> <P> </P> <P>Maybe you should reread live update #3, the 2 nukes dont share timers so no need to talk down to wizards and how they dont know what they talking about.  I actually don't wanna get involved in this debate since both sides seem to want to post false information but I'll just post my opinion.  Wizards at level 50 are a very decent class, I'm very happy with mine.  However i gotta give the edge to warlocks when it comes to dps and I dont think a wizard's utility(and when i say utility I mean evac<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) makes up for the damage difference.  On raids warlocks steall aggro more often than anyother class I know and a wizard never steals it probably due to every mob being immune to either fire or ice cutting our dps in half. </P> <P>But please dont say a wizard can do more dmg to a mob than a warlock can cause thats just a lie, its hypocritical to tell wizards to look at facts when you yourself actually ignore them.  I know alot of 50 wizards and warlocks and no warlocks deny, in fact no 50 in the game would deny, that warloc dmg is better than a wizards, so I dont know why you try to say thats how it is, the level of the differnce might come into debate ('m actually in the camp where its not that big of a difference and hence not a big deal) but stop trying to deny there isnt a difference</P>

[WaachBack]

<DIV>Wow I am surprised this is still going on....even after they nerfed us....<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Kulpr]

I havn't read the entire thread, but in the first couple pages few warlocks were confused why such a big outburst by the wizard community. The answer is simple. There are way more wizards then there are warlocks. I'm on najena server and when i do a /who all wiz usually it responds with 100+. When I do a /who all warlock its usually floating around 30-40. Safe to say based on my server at least that there is at least 3-4 times more wizards then warlocks. Hence when an issue comes up wiz forum will explode much faster then the warlock forum. <div></div>

[BlazTink]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kulprid wrote:<BR>I havn't read the entire thread, but in the first couple pages few warlocks were confused why such a big outburst by the wizard community. The answer is simple. There are way more wizards then there are warlocks. I'm on najena server and when i do a /who all wiz usually it responds with 100+. When I do a /who all warlock its usually floating around 30-40. Safe to say based on my server at least that there is at least 3-4 times more wizards then warlocks. Hence when an issue comes up wiz forum will explode much faster then the warlock forum.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Right, right, there's no serious issue here, everything's fine, it's just a bunch of Wizard crybabies eh? <P>*shakes his head in disbelief*</P>

[Alfgand]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kulprid wrote:<BR>I havn't read the entire thread, but in the first couple pages few warlocks were confused why such a big outburst by the wizard community. The answer is simple. There are way more wizards then there are warlocks. I'm on najena server and when i do a /who all wiz usually it responds with 100+. When I do a /who all warlock its usually floating around 30-40. Safe to say based on my server at least that there is at least 3-4 times more wizards then warlocks. Hence when an issue comes up wiz forum will explode much faster then the warlock forum.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR>Right, right, there's no serious issue here, everything's fine, it's just a bunch of Wizard crybabies eh? <P>*shakes his head in disbelief*</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>I really don't think thats what he meant.</P> <P>He is simply saying that where there are more people in a group there is bound to be a larger response just due to the numbers of people affected.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P></DIV>

[Erow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Draw4wild wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erowid wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Warlocks have 2 main Nukes, <U>Dark Distortion</U>(23) and <U>Nil Distortion</U>(37)... <EM><STRONG>unfortunatly they are on the same timer</STRONG></EM>. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>Hmm... thought that was taken out about a month ago...</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Sorry, Dark Distortion and Nil Distortion are on the same timer.... basically Nil is the replacment for Dark.  What you thought you read was that WIzards Ball of Fire & Ball of Flames timers we removed...so you basically assumed it was the same for Warlocks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>This thread is getting very tireing... only because some people look at each spell instead of the entire spell line.  It's time you looked up some lvl 50 WIzards and spoke to them (like I have)... none of them like going low on mana during a battle... but they all will tell you that it's intoxicating as hell to mana dump and burn holes in Mobs when the party is in trouble. Yes, you have a longer recovery... and thats why Bat Idols and potions are for... but your alive and thanks to the Wizards ability to dump mobs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>On the contrary, Warlocks are persistant, constant damage dealers that are extremely effcient, but in no way can touch the "afterburn" effect of the Wizard.  Problem is, in a crisis a Warlock doesnt do anything different than when normal pulls come. Wizards are conservative and calculating.... but when need be can go threw thier whole mana bar within 60 seconds...  thats impressive.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=72" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=72</A></P> <P> </P> <P>Maybe you should reread live update #3, the 2 nukes dont share timers so no need to talk down to wizards and how they dont know what they talking about.  I actually don't wanna get involved in this debate since both sides seem to want to post false information but I'll just post my opinion.  Wizards at level 50 are a very decent class, I'm very happy with mine.  However i gotta give the edge to warlocks when it comes to dps and I dont think a wizard's utility(and when i say utility I mean evac<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) makes up for the damage difference.  On raids warlocks steall aggro more often than anyother class I know and a wizard never steals it probably due to every mob being immune to either fire or ice cutting our dps in half. </P> <P>But please dont say a wizard can do more dmg to a mob than a warlock can cause thats just a lie, its hypocritical to tell wizards to look at facts when you yourself actually ignore them.  I know alot of 50 wizards and warlocks and no warlocks deny, in fact no 50 in the game would deny, that warloc dmg is better than a wizards, so I dont know why you try to say thats how it is, the level of the differnce might come into debate ('m actually in the camp where its not that big of a difference and hence not a big deal) but stop trying to deny there isnt a difference</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Draw, welcome to the debate...... now go back and read this entire 8 pages before you assume anything.... you paint me as an enemy.  In this thread there are THREE debates in one. The main issue of the Wizards I support and give reason for my support. The clash between the classes is why I remain, as to be a ambassador to my class.  While your at it READ what you quoted of mine before you ignorantly post a link to text thats errant.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>See....  where is say "<FONT color=#66ffff><EM> </EM><EM>Warlocks have 2 main Nukes, <U>Dark Distortion</U>(23) and <U>Nil Distortion</U>(37)... <STRONG>unfortunatly they are on the same timer</STRONG>.</EM></FONT><FONT color=#33ccff> " <--------  I didnt have to read it from SOE, I can simply test it to let you know that it is indeed FACT.</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff>Secondly, Wizards CAN do more DPS than a warlock....   albiet they will be out of mana within 60 seconds. But, that doesn't invalidate my statement....   read my post a few pages back of why this is.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33ccff></FONT> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Erowid on <span class=date_text>03-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:36 PM</span>

[Tanit]

<span><blockquote><hr>BlazTinker wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Kulprid wrote:I havn't read the entire thread, but in the first couple pages few warlocks were confused why such a big outburst by the wizard community. The answer is simple. There are way more wizards then there are warlocks. I'm on najena server and when i do a /who all wiz usually it responds with 100+. When I do a /who all warlock its usually floating around 30-40. Safe to say based on my server at least that there is at least 3-4 times more wizards then warlocks. Hence when an issue comes up wiz forum will explode much faster then the warlock forum. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Right, right, there's no serious issue here, everything's fine, it's just a bunch of Wizard crybabies eh? <p>*shakes his head in disbelief*</p><hr></blockquote>I dont see it as a major issue, maybe a small imbalance.</span><div></div>

[BlazTink]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alfgand wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kulprid wrote:<BR>I havn't read the entire thread, but in the first couple pages few warlocks were confused why such a big outburst by the wizard community. The answer is simple. There are way more wizards then there are warlocks. I'm on najena server and when i do a /who all wiz usually it responds with 100+. When I do a /who all warlock its usually floating around 30-40. Safe to say based on my server at least that there is at least 3-4 times more wizards then warlocks. Hence when an issue comes up wiz forum will explode much faster then the warlock forum.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR>Right, right, there's no serious issue here, everything's fine, it's just a bunch of Wizard crybabies eh? <P>*shakes his head in disbelief*</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>I really don't think thats what he meant.</P> <P>He is simply saying that where there are more people in a group there is bound to be a larger response just due to the numbers of people affected.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I know exactly what he said. His post implies that the Wizard Outcry is not due to a real problem at all...it's simply due to numbers. <P>Sure, take the easy way out, don't compare spell dmg, cast/recast timers, mana cost, or raid mob resistances. Keep believing if you will that there's no problem or that it is insignificant. That still won't make it true.</P>

[Alfgand]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>I know exactly what he said. His post implies that the Wizard Outcry is not due to a real problem at all...it's simply due to numbers. </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ummm, wrong.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He said "Hence when an issue comes up" ...notice no indication that the issue is not valid</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then  "up wiz forum will explode much faster then the warlock forum." .... it will explode <U>faster</U> than on the warlock.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is nothing stating the issue is not valid, he is simply stating that ANY issue, will have a greater responce due to the sheer numbers of Wizards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HE NEVER SAID THE ISSUE WAS NOT VALID.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Read the words and try to understand what the words mean, not read your own biases into them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[BlazTink]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alfgand wrote:<BR> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>I know exactly what he said. His post implies that the Wizard Outcry is not due to a real problem at all...it's simply due to numbers. </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Ummm, wrong.....</DIV> <DIV>He said "Hence when an issue comes up" ...notice no indication that the issue is not valid</DIV> <DIV>Then "up wiz forum will explode much faster then the warlock forum." .... it will explode <U>faster</U> than on the warlock.</DIV> <DIV>There is nothing stating the issue is not valid, he is simply stating that ANY issue, will have a greater responce due to the sheer numbers of Wizards.</DIV> <DIV>HE NEVER SAID THE ISSUE WAS NOT VALID.</DIV> <DIV>Read the words and try to understand what the words mean, not read your own biases into them.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hm...ok, let's have another look at his post: <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kulprid wrote:<BR>I havn't read the entire thread, but in the first couple pages few warlocks were confused why such a big outburst by the wizard community. The answer is simple. There are way more wizards then there are warlocks.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>He completely disregards the mere possibility that there's a valid reason for the huge outcry(that we are significantly underpowered when compared to warlocks). Instead, without even bothering to read the post, he goes ahead and offers his "simple answer:" that there are more Wizards than Warlocks. <P>By stating this, he invalidates any other possible explanations other than his "simple answer." So, he is effectively claiming the Wizard Issue is not valid, because his "simple answer" fully explains the "big outburst by the Wizard Community." There's absolutely no room for any other explanations once you assume that "the answer is simple: there are way more wizards than warlocks." <P>If someone says they had 10 ducks, 2 ran away and 3 died, do they really have to say that 5 are left after that?</P>

[Alfgand]

<DIV> <P></P> <HR> <P>By stating this, he invalidates any other possible explanations other than his "simple answer." So, he is effectively claiming the Wizard Issue is not valid, because his "simple answer" fully explains the "big outburst by the Wizard Community." There's absolutely no room for any other explanations once you assume that "the answer is simple: there are way more wizards than warlocks."</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Where in his post did he actually say the issue was not valid...NO WHERE.</P> <P>You are again reading that into what he wrote not what he acutally wrote.</P> <P>From his post you cannot infer that he thinks the issue is not valid, his post simply refers to the size of the response.. "such a big outburst".</P> <P>You are assuming that he thinks the issue is not valid. <U>The words of the post NEVER say this.</U></P> <P>If he intended to imply the issue was not valid, he did a poor job because he never actually states that the issue is not valid.</P> <P>You can lead a horse to a book but you cannot make him read.</P> <P>BTW, There are no ducks.</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Alfgand on <span class=date_text>04-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:49 AM</span>

[Findara]

<DIV>I dont know what kind of crappy tanks you guys have but I let Devistation fly as soon as it pops</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>on the zek instance I cast all 4 of my aoe spells, then devistation, single target nukes, back ta aoes devistation single targets, rince and repeat till either we win or loose.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Devistation was only over powered back when it was 18 sec recast, thats the only time I have really got owned by devistation <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you really want to be equal give us 3k poison and magic buffs as well as giving them the ability to land nukes.</DIV>

[WaachBack]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alfred75 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR><BR><BR> <DIV>I dont understand why you cant cast an AE spell to a single target. Especially when that AE spell is doing higher damage than most of single target nuke.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Its the same reason why you would not want spend $50 on a $2 pepsi. Its not power efficient to cast ae nukes on single mobs, and its pretty dumb to do so - warlocks have intelligence as their primary statistics.</SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>..............ok, this is the stupidest thing i've ever heard. This is like a wizard saying: I cant cast ice comet when i fight 5 mobs because ice comet is for strong single target, it'll overkill a mob and waste power...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No its not, it makes perfect sense. If we cast Devastation on a single mob we would get an average of 1800 damage out of it for 250+ over. If a wizard cast Ice comet on a mob that was grouped, he or she would get 3k + damage out of it for about the same amount of power. Now do you get it?<BR>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WaachBack wrote:<BR><BR>No its not, it makes perfect sense. If we cast Devastation on a single mob we would get an average of 1800 damage out of it for 250+ over. If a wizard cast Ice comet on a mob that was grouped, he or she would get 3k + damage out of it for about the same amount of power. Now do you get it?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Nil Distortion: When hit, it costs around 70 mana, does 2100 max damage.<BR>Ball of Flames: It costs 196 mana, does 900 max damage.<BR> <BR>But you know what? Wizards still use ball of flames. Why? Wizards have no choice. If we dont use it, our dps will be much lower. This is why warlocks should use Devastation on singel target. <DIV> </DIV>

[Gobligat]

<div></div><div> <div>Many have not realize whats the massive difference of a WARLOCK at lvl 50 and wizard at lvl 50 and theres a BIG difference. From all sorts of encounters i have seen it all, and I myself am a lvl 50 wizard and very unsatisfy with the end game version of a wizard. YOU WAIT 50 LVLS to get a nuke that hits 3.6 K, BUT THE CATCH is, YOU CANT USE THAT NUKE ON raid mobs cuz it RESISTS or HITS the end game mob 1 out of 10 times! what the hell is up with that. RAIDING IS ALL YOU CAN DO AT END GAME AND SOE [Removed for Content] US?</div> <div> </div> <div>ON ALL the raid mobs, including the non resistant, and heroic mobs, our wizard dps does not even come close to the amount of dps the warlocks do.</div> <div> </div> <div>Parsing from the recent patches along with other lvl 50's wiz/warlocks, ive seen it all, and if you dont believe me, ask a wizard and a warlock to demonstrate for you.</div> <div> </div> <div>Here is the main thing that makes a warlock so much better.</div> <div> </div> <div>On average, the dps parser I use parse 400-600 DPS for anytype of mobs, while a wizard in the same exact fight will hit 100-200, if i'm really lucky, i would hit about 250-300.</div> <div> </div> <div>Notice the big difference there, NOT ONLY THEY OUTDMG us in DPS, the power usage/utility for casting their spells is a hell lot better than ours. I mean who signed up to be a battery charger for poeple who runs out of mana or evac the group? wizards right now are struggling to stay ontop of the dps classes like rangers and assassins, on average, the scouts are doing just as much dps as us PLUS THEY have 25% more power than us by the end of the fight, while a WARLOCK dumps Half the power bar doing 400-600 DPS, and wizard USING all his power bar to give out a silly 200 DPS? </div> <div> </div> <div>What kind of bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is that? talk about unbalance! Even with upgraded spells, soloing mobs right now goes to warlocks being the best class to do it. I can solo a lvl 50^^ heroic with my wizard, but the way the warlock does it is 200 times better IMO.</div> <div> </div> <div>BTW, i have adept 3 spells for all nukes and dot's, when i was comparing to a warlock with app4 and adept 1's.</div> <div> </div> <div>Finally, stating what others have stated, I havent seen any signs of nerfing warlocks or giving wizards a bit more of an edge, if you want to Deal 100k Dmg to a raid mob compared to a wimpy 20K dmg total to a mob by end of 5min fight, go with the warlock, otherwise when you hit lvl 50, prepare yourself to just sit there and see "RESISTS" and low numbers hitting everything, also make a hotbar to have group buffs and power feeds ready, cuz thats all you will be doing.</div> <div> </div> <div>all stats were tested with COMBATSTATS.com, ive seen it all. our guild has like 5+ lvl 50 warlocks and 3+ wizards lvl 50. Moorgard said "equal", some bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] there when you sign urself up for a DPS class, not a battery charging class.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Gobligator</div> <div>LvL 50 Wizard (gimped)</div> <div>Steamfont</div> <div> </div> <div>p.s FoR ALL YOU LOW LVL WIZARDS THAT DONT KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT DPS, get COMBATSTATS parser, theres alot of Wizards out there that backs my opinion that we are too [Removed for Content] to be helpful on end game mobs.  ITS SO SILLY THAT YOU WAIT 50 LEVELS TO REALIZE YOUR BEST NUKE DOESNT HIT ANY RAID MOBS, WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO AT LVL 50?</div> <div> </div> <div>CONCLUSION</div> <div>WIZARDS SIGNED UP TO KILL [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. <font color="#ff9900"><b>Repeatedly posting the same thing will not get you heard, but it could get your account banned. Please do not repost the same message multiple times. - Blackguard</b></font> </div></div><p>Message Edited by Blackguard on <span class=date_text>06-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:34 PM</span>

[Crono1321]

[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] shut down by the big man.  Guess they really do like warlocks more! <div></div>

[Ranvi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gobligator wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>blah blah blah wizards suck at 50 blah blah.../cry /cry...blah blah blah</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then Ryan drops by and says:<BR><FONT color=#ff9900><B>Repeatedly posting the same thing will not get you heard, but it could get your account banned. Please do not repost the same message multiple times. - Blackguard</B></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Can we have a wtfpwned?</P> <P>Look all you wizards out there...be happy with the miniscule dps that you contribute on raids because you are there to mainly pump mana, evac after the raid, and to offer resistances for certain targets. Be happy with your suicidal mezz also. </P> <P>There is no point in wizards and warlocks doing the same damage. If wizards and warlocks were mirror image of each other except their names and the means in which they copy each other then why would one play a wiz and why would one play a lock?<BR></P> <P>Both of us are suppose to be bigger dps than all other classes (but unfortunately serkers and other melees out-dps wizards kekeke) and once combat is balanced and everything that will be the case. But you (a wiz) and I (a warlock) will never have the same dps...we will both be at the top but I will be higher parsing. Even after they lower ice resistance of raid mobs a wiz will only out-dps a lock on single target mobs (even THAT is a big maybe because a wizard's manaconsumption is Q.Q). </P> <P>Raids do appreciate wizards...because of the resistances they provide...and the manapumping...and the evac from nek docks to CL gate for zalak (and stuff like that)...so its time the wizards accept what they have and appreciate themselves a bit more.</P> <P>I was a wiz in EQ1...</P> <P><3 you guys</P>

[Ennis]

<div></div>Ranvier,You know who this is.Thank you for telling me that there is essentially no point in playing anymore. It was awful kind of you to keep on telling me to app to FoH when I hit 50 but if all I am supposed to be is a mana pump and a taxi they can get someone else. They can have their rangers evac your sorry [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] or clerics to odessey you if your CoQ isn't up. As for mana regen they got chanters and bards. If I wanted to be a "utility class" buff [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] I would have played a priest class.I will cancel my account tomorrow. I can go play WoW with my old EQ1 guild. PS. Remember all the people you hated in the guild I was in in EQ1? Well, guess what? You sound just like them now. <span>:smileysad:</span> <p> <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Ennis on <span class=date_text>06-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:13 AM</span>

[Ranvi]

<DIV>! </DIV> <DIV>:smileysad::smileysad::smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizzy Fairy Goddess I was merely messing around. I have been cooped up in the chair for a long while now. You know as well as I that wizards aren't...as bad in a situation as that. And wizards are far superior to us in many situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was dead serious when I said their resistances on raids are appreciated. At times having wiz resistances in the group can make life a lot easier...against mobs such as Darathar, Vox, etc. Warlocks poison resistance only helps against Shakuto (or is it Makuto...they confuse me), Udalan, and Venekor. Fire/Ice resistances are applicable to a far greater number of raids than poison.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was also serious about appreciating the manapump. Take the Nagalik encounter for instance...he does a 2.5k+ manadrain on his target (the MT) like every 5 secs or something. A chanter/bard's manaregen spells/songs take too long to give the MT enough mana to spam his taunts/skills before the next manadrain. Manapumps are really effective in this situation. Warlocks can only pump for like 138 mana with Endow Energy (or whatever that was called) which won't help much. A wiz can pump for like 400 mana or something though. With 400 mana between each drains the MT can hold aggro with ease. MT with no mana = loss of aggro (if other classes are still dpsing at a decent rate) = wiped raid. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And FoH wizards are well respected because the amount of dps one puts out doesn't mean everything. EQ2's encounters are easy enough that one can have a raid's 1-2 warlocks be afk the whole time and things will still die fast. And any wizard can out-dps me (or other warlocks) on raids such as Venekor and Vazgok because very few of my spells land on them. When a class's resistances are useful on a raid then his spells are pretty much worthless and vice-versa.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I couldn't have sounded nearly as bad as some of your eq1 guildmates...heh. You never dealt with them the way I did:smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So doooon't cancel account! (I am coming back to game in 2 weeks also). I was planning on playing WoW as well but it will go by way too fast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I start avoiding grouping with you (or just any wizard of around my level <3 Kalbus) because of your dps you can then say that I am like certain old guildees of your's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW -- Grats on 49! 1 more level and IC huff huff:smileyhappy:. Also check your PM thingies!</DIV>

[TheWhiteRaid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ranvier wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was dead serious when I said their resistances on raids are appreciated. At times having wiz resistances in the group can make life a lot easier...against mobs such as Darathar, Vox, etc. Warlocks poison resistance only helps against Shakuto (or is it Makuto...they confuse me), Udalan, and Venekor. Fire/Ice resistances are applicable to a far greater number of raids than poison.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That is a double edge sword.  It also means we can't hit the mobs that people need our resistances for.</DIV>

[Ranvi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheWhiteRaider wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ranvier wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was dead serious when I said their resistances on raids are appreciated. At times having wiz resistances in the group can make life a lot easier...against mobs such as Darathar, Vox, etc. Warlocks poison resistance only helps against Shakuto (or is it Makuto...they confuse me), Udalan, and Venekor. Fire/Ice resistances are applicable to a far greater number of raids than poison.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That is a double edge sword.  It also means we can't hit the mobs that people need our resistances for.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yep...and its the same for us. Take venekor for example...our buffs offer poison resistance which helps against his AE...but since he is a "poison" type mob our spells don't land on him. Okay he isn't COMPLETELY immune to all of our spells but I like parse 20dps or something on that raid:smileyindifferent:<BR>

[Aadar]

<P>Well there are several issues discussed here.</P> <P>Efficiency of casting. I agree that wizard nukes should use less power or warlock nukes more power for some balance.</P> <P>Damage output. Who said both classes have to have identical DPS? Bruisers out DPS Monks, Beserkers out DPS Guardians; not all types are equally balanced due to other abilities. That said I do think Wizard AoEs could get a little loving from the devs.</P> <P>Wizards get to pump power and  evac, both very desirable attributes. Wizards get to do more DPS than Warlocks on noxious resist mobs. Wizards get to do more burst DPS.</P> <P>I personaly think it would be extremely boring if both types had exactly the same spells with the exception that one was noxious based and the other elemental based. Diversity is a good thing.</P> <P>Anyway, the devs have a brand new chance to mess things up with the expansion in September, it is anyones guess who will come out on top with level 60 spells.<BR></P>

[Alfgand]

<P>Ranvier said</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>There is no point in wizards and warlocks doing the same damage. If wizards and warlocks were mirror image of each other except their names and the means in which they copy each other then why would one play a wiz and why would one play a lock?<BR></P> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P><U><STRONG>Another totally incorrect point!</STRONG></U></P> <P>The points Warlocks use to try to maintain their advantage generally are:</P> <P>1. The above point. If we both are the mage to DPS then there will be no difference between Warlocks and Wizards.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Completely totally wrong. Wizards are Fire and Ice and Warlocks are Poison and Disease. Who is say that Fire and Ice are weaker than posion and disease?</P> <P>There are also many ways SoE could design the spells to make the two classes damage spells work and perform differently and yet make the overall, over time DPS roughly equivalent.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>2. Wizards have more utility than Warlocks.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>How many time must Wizards repeat. WE DID NOT BECOME WIZARDS FOR UTILITY. We became Wizards to blow things up. That is period. So boost Warlock Utility to mach Wizards and boost Wizard DPS to match Warlocks. Its that simple.</P> <P>Show me a Wizard who objects to that and I will show you a Warlock disquised in a Wizard Robe. (Yes, I know we both use the same robes, I was just making a point)</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>3. You should have picked Warlock to begin with.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>No. The original descriptions of Warlocks AND Wizards both described the classes abitlity to provide "Devistating damage"</P> <P>There was no indication that Warlocks would be better at it and it was reasonable to assume Warlocks and Wizards would  roughly eqivalent.</P> <P>Thats why we picked Wizards.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>4. Then re-roll a Warlock.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>NO, not gonna happen!</P> <P>No, we want Wizards the class we want to play to fixed to perform as it was intendee and described. We do not want to be second fiddle to ANY class in DPS. Neither should Warlocks be. We both should sit at the pinnnacle of DPS, separate and different but equal in DPS. Its not too much to ask for.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>5. This is not EQ1.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>I think we all know that. We still want SoE to make us "roughly eqivalent".</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>6. Phoney reason that Warlocks come up with next week.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Sorry, the new reason will be as silly and wrong as those in the past. If you all had a real valid reason you would have already thought of it.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Just face it, Warlocks, we have nothing against you guys but we will <U>NEVER</U> be silent or <U>GIVE UP</U> until we reach equal DPS with Warlocks. I hope they will not nerf Warlocks but that they will raise Wizards to an equal level.</P> <P>Then combined as a team, both Wizards and Warlocks can advance our cause that we both should be the tops in DPS over the other classes because we have all the valid reasons for being so. </P> <P>Wizards and Warlocks give up the most of all other classes to stand before fang and claw with only our DPS to save us.</P> <P> As mages we give up the armor that all the non mage classes have.</P> <P>As Wizards and Warlocks we give up fighting pets and the chanters mind tricks.</P> <P>Wizards and Warlocks give up most of all the other classes advantages for one thing.....DPS!</P> <P>The sooner Warlocks come to understand this, the sooner we can work as a united front to advance this cause.</P> <P>Come on Warlocks, get on board with us...</P> <P> </P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by Alfgand on <SPAN class=date_text>06-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:23 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Alfgand on <SPAN class=date_text>06-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:25 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Alfgand on <span class=date_text>06-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 AM</span>

[MilkToa]

<P>I am one warlock who is definitely in favor of adjusting (upward) the DPS of wizards to bring them in line with warlocks. We're both sorcerers classes so our DPS should be equivalent. The argument that wizards have more utility so their DPS should be less is a bunch of bull. </P> <P>Unfortunately, nothing is going to happen until the 'combat balance' and when it does everything may be different. Who knows, maybe enchanters will become the DPS kings and the envy of the mage classes.</P> <p>Message Edited by MilkToast on <span class=date_text>06-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:56 PM</span>

[Ranvi]

<DIV>Other than chucking out a good point as "an incorrect point" I really liked your speech. Tickled my heart, it did. Wait I haven't one...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(not an emotional one at any rate)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks should demand equal dps to bruisers and serkers should say they wanted to be offensive tanks (since they almost never tank in raids[so serkers should maintain higher dps than guards but get better tanking buffs and more hp).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Going to 1-star me are you? </DIV> <DIV>Big-[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing-deal</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDITED to add that this is addressing Alfgand.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ranvier on <span class=date_text>06-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:43 PM</span>

[Alfgand]

<div></div><div></div><div></div> <div> <p>Ravier said</p> <p></p> <hr> <p></p> <div> <div>Monks should demand equal dps to bruisers and serkers should say they wanted to be offensive tanks (since they almost never tank in raids[so serkers should maintain higher dps than guards but get better tanking buffs and more hp).</div> <div> <hr> </div></div> <p>This incredibly rediculous statement simply falls into my list catagory number 6:</p> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <p><font color="#ffff00">6. Phoney reason that Warlocks come up with next week.</font></p> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <p><font color="#ffff00">Sorry, the new reason will be as silly and wrong as those in the past. If you all had a real valid reason you would have already thought of it.</font></p> </blockquote></blockquote> <p>Thats what your statement is, a phoney arguement, grasping at ghostly straws in a laughable attempt counter my rock solid points.</p> <p>It is so weak I could not beleive anyone would even advance them. good grief man, think a bit before hitting the keyboard.</p> <p>Here is where I will demolish your silly point.</p> <p>Go to the class descriptions on the EQ2 site. Look up Monk and compare to Bruiser. It CLEARLY states that Bruisers "They have transformed their bodies into <u><strong>BRUTAL </strong><strong>WEAPONS</strong></u> designed to <u><strong>INFLICT SUFFERING</strong></u> on their enemies."  For Monks it says, "Their natural ability allows them to <strong><u>AVOID</u></strong> their enemies <strong><u>BLOWS</u></strong> and strike back with clean, efficient attacks. Clearly to anyone, this points out that Brusiers are more offensive (DPS) and Monks are more defense.</p> <p>Same with Guardians who are supposed to be defense and Berserkers who are supposed to offense. Just read and try to understand the words in the class descriptions.</p> <p>Thats not to say that Monks are all defense and no offense and Brusiers are all offense and no defense but it clearly states that each is different. The same with Guardian and Berserkers.</p> <p>Now, and try to follow this Ranvier because it gets a bit more difficult to follow but I know you can do it!</p> <p>How all this works out in high end raids has no bearing at all on our issue. If another class has problems, Monks vs Brusiers or Berserkers vs Guardians that is a totally different issue and needs to be addressed in their forum. They each should expect their class to follow SoE's original description.</p> <p>Now to expand on my point in number 3:</p> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <p><font color="#ffff00">3. You should have picked Warlock to begin with.</font></p> <blockquote dir="ltr"> <p><font color="#ffff00">No. The original descriptions of Warlocks AND Wizards both described the classes abitlity to provide "Devistating damage"</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">There was no indication that Warlocks would be better at it and it was reasonable to assume Warlocks and Wizards would  roughly eqivalent.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Thats why we picked Wizards.</font></p> </blockquote></blockquote> <p>Ok to really nail this one down, move your mouse to the Mage section.</p> <p>Look at Warlock, it says, " They are masters to death and decay who deal <font color="#ffff00"><strong><u>DEVISTATING DAMAGE</u></strong></font> and pain to their enemies. Ok so Warlocks are supposed to do devistating damage.</p> <p>Now look at Wizards, it says," Wielding these powerful forces, Wizards can inflict <font color="#ffff00"><u><strong>STARTLING DEVISTATION</strong></u></font> upon their enemies. Hey Wizards do devistation too!</p> <p>Both classes are supposed to do DPS, the only difference mentioned in the complete description is Warlocks are Poison and Disease and Wizards are Fire and Ice. So from this a reasonable person can only conclude that as Moorgard himself said that the two classes DPS is supposed to be "roughly equivalent". </p> <p>Now come on Rav, lets get real and come up with a serious argument for your side and please, just skip the silly ones.</p> <p>You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him think. </p> <p> . </p> </div><p>Message Edited by Alfgand on <span class="date_text">06-07-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:24 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Alfgand on <span class=date_text>06-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:25 PM</span>

[Aadar]

<DIV>I am sure a lot of wizards (at least those at level 50) would probably welcome the removal of their mana transfer (if as a consequence enchanters got better at it) and their evac in order to get identical dps to warlocks, or alternatively, that warlocks receive those abilities as well in return for equal damage, but I dont see that happening. <BR> <BR>In common with all classes, those that have more utility/defense do less damage than their cousins. I know several wizards that chose it over warlock simply because of the evac (it should have rung some alarms back then that better utility will probably mean less dps).<BR> <BR>What wizards can reasonably hope for going forward to level 60 is for them to get an increase on their damage to get parity with warlocks, and for new raid mobs to be more equally divided between noxious and elemental resists.<BR> <BR>I play a Warlock, my wife plays a Wizard, we complement each other well and I would like to see them more balanced for raids, but the world will not end and her wizard will not be deleted/unplayed if it doesnt happen.<BR> <BR>Yes wizards are supposed to do STARTLING DEVISTATION (they do), and warlocks DEVISTATING DAMAGE (they do); its just that, at least at the moment, STARTLING DEVISTATION does not equate to DEVISTATING DAMAGE in many situations.<BR></DIV> <p>Message Edited by Aadarin on <span class=date_text>06-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:14 AM</span>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>Aadarin wrote: <DIV>I am sure a lot of wizards (at least those at level 50) would probably welcome the removal of their mana transfer (if as a consequence enchanters got better at it) and their evac in order to get identical dps to warlocks, or alternatively, that warlocks receive those abilities as well in return for equal damage, but I dont see that happening. <BR> <BR>In common with all classes, those that have more utility/defense do less damage than their cousins. I know several wizards that chose it over warlock simply because of the evac (it should have rung some alarms back then that better utility will probably mean less dps).<BR> <BR>What wizards can reasonably hope for going forward to level 60 is for them to get an increase on their damage to get parity with warlocks, and for new raid mobs to be more equally divided between noxious and elemental resists.<BR> <BR>I play a Warlock, my wife plays a Wizard, we complement each other well and I would like to see them more balanced for raids, but the world will not end and her wizard will not be deleted/unplayed if it doesnt happen.<BR> <BR>Yes wizards are supposed to do STARTLING DEVISTATION (they do), and warlocks DEVISTATING DAMAGE (they do); its just that, at least at the moment, STARTLING DEVISTATION does not equate to DEVISTATING DAMAGE in many situations.<BR></DIV> <p>Message Edited by Aadarin on <span class=date_text>06-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:14 AM</span><hr></blockquote>I would never want that, and I'm a level 50 raiding wizard.Yes, the resists on many higher end mobs are imbalanced, because there are far to many that are set against wizards. Or really heat and cold. Because this also effects summoners, but no one mentions that, because you don't see many of them, because of the issues they face, and people don't see them as DPS, which needs to be fixed.However, wizards aren't useless on raids. If only people would communicate more, and plan better, they could put classes to their best use. Our spells may not work on epic mobs, but they sure do work on the friends surrounding the epic mobs. In fact, we tend to be the worst enemy of those friends of epic mobs that like to heal the mob. We can stop them in mid spell, then stifle them, and then burn them down quick.Yes, yes, I know thats not why you wanted to play a wizard. And yes, I agree the resists on epics is over the top.I'm just working with what I have.

[SalBlu]

<P>Stavenham:</P> <P>Thank you, thank you, thank you.  Finally another Wizard like myself who actually works with what we have in a positive way.</P> <P>Now... as to what you were responding to:</P> <P><STRONG><EM><FONT color=#66ccff>Aadarin wrote:</FONT></EM></STRONG></P> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT color=#66ffff><FONT color=#66ccff>I am sure a lot of wizards (at least those at level 50) would probably welcome the removal of their mana transfer (if as a consequence enchanters got better at it) and their evac in order to get identical dps to warlocks, or alternatively, that warlocks receive those abilities as well in return for equal damage, but I dont see that happening.</FONT> </FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV> <P><FONT color=#66ffff><FONT color=#ffffff>I would never want to give up my power transfers.  Never.  You do know that they work on yourself as well correct?  With the two targetable transfer spells, along with our self power spells, that's FOUR power regain spells at my disposal, not to mention the Golden Efreeti Boots that I wear.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ffff><FONT color=#ffffff>I also dont want identicle DPS to a Warlock.  Why?  Because we dont need to be identical.  Why is it that we HAVE to have equal or better damage?  Not everyone can be the highest damage dealers in the game.  Warlocks are at the moment.  What is the huge issue here?</FONT></FONT></P> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT color=#66ccff>Yes wizards are supposed to do STARTLING DEVISTATION (they do), and warlocks DEVISTATING DAMAGE (they do); its just that, at least at the moment, STARTLING DEVISTATION does not equate to DEVISTATING DAMAGE in many situations.</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>This here is another thing that gets blown out of proportion.  The class descriptions.  IMO, these were not supposed to be direct links to what the classes were capable of in any way.  They were just written up to be a general informational on a classes distinct background.  When describing a Wizard in the conventional sense, what would you say about it?  I think that yes, I would describe them as being masters of the arcane arts that can unleash powerful torrents of energy at their foes, thus obliterating them from existance.</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> <DIV><BR>I think that in the conventional sense, I described what a Wizard is in everyone's mind eye.  Gandalf from Lord of the Rings,  Zedicus Zorander from the Sword of Truth books, Raistlen Majere from Dragonlance... All Wizards.  All throwers of death and destruction.  And that's what we do in EQ2 as well.  Its like I said... just a general description of the class in terms of a classical sense of what a Wizard is.  Take the class descriptions with a grain of salt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess I just dont see how our class is so broken when I work so well in groups.</DIV><p>Message Edited by SalBluee on <span class=date_text>06-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:24 AM</span>

[Cobramaci]

<DIV>I totally agree, in fact i hope that all the fotm people who roled a wizard as soon as they heard about the new damage we were doing would just go and play some other class and irritate some other board with over the top exagerations about our so called "[Removed for Content]" state.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I enjoy my wizard, in fact i do more dps that most of the warlocks i group with, our single target damage is good and if soe sort out the resists i will call our class perfect (aside from a few spells that need fixing) as then we will be fully functional in raids on both dps and mana feed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its all about resistances, i've seen assassins, same lvl as me, tear into mobs 4 levels above me, but most my nukes/ debuffs resist, it gets worse on raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please give the whining a rest, i don't want wizards to be indentical to warlocks any more than i want enchanters to have the same dps as wizards/warlocks.  Fix the resists and then we can talk again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ranvi]

<DIV>Get my name right first <EM>gandalf</EM> and then perhaps we can converse. The name is Ranvier...not Ravier or Raviel or crap like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the posts that other made after your last post said what my reply would have been. Saved me some time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give the incessant whining a rest already...the devs have heard by now, undoubtedly. Constantly pestering them won't help your cause.</DIV>

[Lady Uaelr]

<DIV>Mana transfers are fantastic and I am happy we have them. I just wished they did not stun us for so long.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No use posting anymore about disparity---everyone knows (TRUST ME).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just wait for the changes and if it is not to your liking cancel the account. </DIV>

[Stavenh]

<blockquote><hr>Lady Uaelrea wrote:<DIV>Mana transfers are fantastic and I am happy we have them. I just wished they did not stun us for so long.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No use posting anymore about disparity---everyone knows (TRUST ME).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just wait for the changes and if it is not to your liking cancel the account. </DIV><hr></blockquote>I agree, the fact that they all stun about the same, regardless of what level they are, is silly. It's the same spell, with the same effects. You could simply take the first version of it and have it scale up to the same as the higher version. The stun effect needs to lower as you get the different versions.

[SalBlu]

Get Rashadran's Fiery Efflux.  This power transfer has a 6 second stun, not a 12 or 16.  I took that training choice and love it.

[TheWhiteRaid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SalBluee wrote:<BR>Get Rashadran's Fiery Efflux.  This power transfer has a 6 second stun, not a 12 or 16.  I took that training choice and love it. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>8 second stun.  Still about half of what the normal spell is.</P> <P>It doesn't help you throw in more power heals, but at least it allows you to do more in between casts.</P>

[Rile]

Wow -- Just browsed through these posts.  There really are some people with no life who are that upset over better utility compared to DPS.  Its all this tip for tap crap.  I remember in the beginning of the game when it launched when the Wizards were so much better than Warlocks in DPS.  Now its switched and it will switch again I'm sure.  I think everyone should just calm down instead of crying "unfair!" "nerf"! I would hate to see how most of you people act to real life situations.

[Aadar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cobramacius wrote:<BR> <DIV>Please give the whining a rest, i don't want wizards to be indentical to warlocks any more than i want enchanters to have the same dps as wizards/warlocks.  Fix the resists and then we can talk again.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed, except I would substitute "I don't need" in place of "I don't want", because I certainly wouldnt object if wizards received a bit more dps.<BR><BR>

[Lady Uaelr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SalBluee wrote:<BR>Get Rashadran's Fiery Efflux.  This power transfer has a 6 second stun, not a 12 or 16.  I took that training choice and love it. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Have it but I realized that Fiery Surge at adept 3 transfers more mana.=( Not much more but more none-the-less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Efflux does have shorter stun and it is what I use and then I start cyle over again with essential intro ad3.</DIV>

[TheWhiteRaid]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rilely wrote:<BR> Wow -- Just browsed through these posts.  There really are some people with no life who are that upset over better utility compared to DPS.  Its all this tip for tap crap.  I remember in the beginning of the game when it launched when the Wizards were so much better than Warlocks in DPS.  Now its switched and it will switch again I'm sure.  I think everyone should just calm down instead of crying "unfair!" "nerf"! I would hate to see how most of you people act to real life situations.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>At the time it was like comparing a blind man to a guy without eyes.  It is like saying the blind man had it better because he still had his eyes.</DIV>

[UItimaThu]

<DIV>I disliked the power disparity to the extent that I closed down my two accounts and convinced four other friends to do the same. Good luck wizzies.</DIV>

[Alfgand]

<P>Ranvier</P> <P> </P> <DIV>"Get my name right first <EM>gandalf</EM> and then perhaps we can converse. The name is Ranvier...not Ravier or Raviel or crap like that."</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Sorry about spelling your name wrong. It was not intentional</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>"And the posts that other made after your last post said what my reply would have been. Saved me some time."</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I am glad you see the error in your thinking now</FONT>.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>"Give the incessant whining a rest already...the devs have heard by now, undoubtedly. Constantly pestering them won't help your cause."</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>If Warlocks had these issues you too would be "whining", however, unlike you I would be supporting you!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Alfgand on <span class=date_text>06-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:36 AM</span>

[Alfgand]

<HR> <DIV> <DIV>I disliked the power disparity to the extent that I closed down my two accounts and convinced four other friends to do the same. Good luck wizzies.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gee, that going to help ! ................................................ ...........................   NOT !</DIV></DIV>

[Alfgand]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Wow -- Just browsed through these posts.  There really are some people with no life who are that upset over better utility compared to DPS.  Its all this tip for tap crap. </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>These comments are just as bad as those you are talking about. The majority of those here think there are some problems that need fixing and although we are passionate about it, we are presenting logical, non ranting agruments about it. As a side note, most of us do have lives. lol</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> I remember in the beginning of the game when it launched when the Wizards were so much better than Warlocks in DPS.  Now its switched and it will switch again I'm sure.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV align=left><FONT color=#ffff00>Too bad you are probably right here. Most enlightened Wizards do not want it switch to a DPS advantage to Wizards ! We want balance. Which admittedly is a hard thing for SoE to do, or aleast it seems to be.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> I think everyone should just calm down instead of crying "unfair!" "nerf"! I would hate to see how most of you people act to real life situations.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Sorry we are going to "cry" unfair, although I take issue with that characterization, until the problems are fixed. Its the responsibility of a serious player to do so.</P> <P>Who is calling for a "nerf" to Warlocks? Really, please point out one to me. We don't want that.</P> <P>In real life situations, I normally run around in circles screaming and eventually stop when I get dizzy and bang my head into the wall. That ok with you?</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Sac_jok]

<P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff0000 size=2>Come on now Sorcerers...why are we still fighting amidst ourselves over who has the better this or that? We all know there is a combat change coming somewhere down the line so instead of still trippin about this issue lets just wait and see what happens? Who knows maybe we will be exactly equal then (making some happy and some angry still).</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff0000 size=2>I for one don't think there is a "Massive" disparity between our two classes and I don't think Wizards are "gimped". I think the biggest problem is (according to a guildmate) the Resists and Protoflame. Please Lv50 Wizzy's (<STRONG><U>that play the class correctly</U></STRONG>) tell me, am I wrong to believe him?</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff0000 size=2>Even at my level I have grouped with Wizards before and they are great...I always request a Wizard to group with us for the other DPS slot next to me. I found that we complement each other very well and do crazy damage side-by-side.</FONT></P>

[SalBlu]

<FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff0000 size=2>I think the biggest problem is (according to a guildmate) the Resists and Protoflame. Please Lv50 Wizzy's (<STRONG><U>that play the class correctly</U></STRONG>) tell me, am I wrong to believe him?</FONT> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right on the button.  You've seen my posts before though Sac, so I'm sure you know what my stance is on the situation.</DIV>