Question about tanks and aggro

[greenhor]

<DIV>I have never played a tank character before so I don't really know what they do to be able to keep aggro off others (other than the vague "taunt").  My question is, should a lvl 25 guardian have problems keeping aggro off me as a lvl 25 wizard (i have adept III BOF and BOTT)?  Basically i'm wondering if this was poor tanking on his part (not upgraded skills or just not bothering to taunt enough) or if I really need to watch how much damage i'm throwing.  If it was my fault I have serious worries about how we're going to keep from getting killed each fight once the next patch hits and our damage output skyrockets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Supafroi]

<DIV>If the guardians is using his power pool for dmg abilities instead of taunt abilities, that could create a problem.  Normally I can chain nuke/dot my butt off and a good tank can hold aggro.</DIV>

[Bannon]

<DIV>Mages have enough hitting power right now to pull groups of multiple mobs off the tanks.  I see it alot as a tank.  With the upcoming changes you are going to have to understand how to control your power in order to not pull agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a single ^^ mob...tank shouldnt have a problem.  But with groups for 3 or more you will have to control your power.  Save the heavy hits for the middle of the fight...not the begining...let the tank bust a few taunts before letting go.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most tanks around your level are only going to have 2 taunts.  One single target, and one area target...and even at app4...they arent great.  Specially against mobs like owlbears that break agro when the first one dies regardless of how much you taunt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically...drops dots and such at the start...but save the heavy hitters for at least the last 75% of the fight.  And NO buffs during combat....those make so much agro...</DIV>

[Stavenh]

Tanks get buffs, damage abilities and taunting abilites. In a group, they should use buff and taunt more then attacking. This isn't the holy word on aggro, but generally I find that the order goes from high to lowHealingBuffingTaunting/Damage.There is some question to the last two. Everything I see about taunting abilities is that it increases the tanks hate. But by how much? Then there are buffs that increase hate each hit. So big amounts of instant damage can creat alot of aggro for that player, which may take a while to catch up on. Taunting and damage often go hand in gloveA tank should not be worried about doing high DPS in a group. The more they worry about thier DPS the less they are about holding aggro. A well placed buff can often give a tank lots of aggro. If you've every buffed a tank after the pull, and got agro, you know what I mean.

[Anad]

<DIV>If you are nuking too soon, yes the tank will have trouble getting aggro off of you.  For example, if you nuke on incoming you are nuking before the tank builds up enough hate with the mob and his taunt is not going to do jack to get the mob to forget you now.  Additionally, in multiple mob encounters if you don't stay on the same mob as the tank it will also be very difficult to get aggro back from you.</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Right now, mages should NEVER pull a wiz.Post update I am sure it changes. Right now I would commit suicide if a caster peeled me with nukes. (Still possibly with certain buffs but not usually).

[greenhor]

<DIV>What I usually do (and please offer suggestions if this is poor strategy) is wait until the tank brings the mob back to the group, or until they are obviously engaged in combat.  About 1-2 seconds after that i will (always assisting the tank rather than directly attacking mob) cast frozen whorl and incinerate.  after that i start nuking with ball of fire and then alternating BOTT and Blaze until BOF is ready again, recasting frozen whorl when necessary.   should i wait longer after casting the DOTs before starting in with the nukes?  and if so what should i cast while waiting or should i just stand there doing nothing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tanit]

A chaincasting wizard shouldnt get aggro with a good tank.

[Stavenh]

Greenhorn, thats fine, but work in your HOs. Free damage, with no extra time cost save maybe .5 of a second. Make a hot key.Line one: /useability arcane augurline two: /useability (spell name to advance the HO, in our case it is a lighting symbol spell).This will basically cause you to start an HO, and move right to casting the spell to advance, it, then onto completing it. Then depending on the HO you get, cast the right spell to do extra damage. My damage has taken a good easy 20-25% increase this way.

[Widgetblaster]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanith_ wrote:<BR>A chaincasting wizard shouldnt get aggro with a good tank.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Pure high-aggro chaincasting will and should get you killed...dancing the aggro line is part of the fun of playing a wizard.

[Bannon]

<DIV>Always wait for the tank to bust a taunt based HO at the start of the fight.  If the tank is smart, he's doing this already.  After the HO is complete, wait about 1 second before you start casting.  The average tank will then use his second , single target taunt on the mob he's targetting.  If you assist the tank, then you shouldnt be pulling agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, with the new changes, some testing will need to go in to see if it is possible to still over nuke in the middle of the fight.  It's usually area attacking nukes that cause problems with me.  Orc mastery strike fro example.  As soon as the wizard in my group uses it...he peels the whole group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[greenhor]

<DIV>and it just gets more confusing.  is orc mastery an AOE spell?  I chose gnoll, skeleton and giant for my mastery spells but they are all DD not AOE.</DIV>

[Tyrant Invict]

<DIV>All mastery spells are single target spells.  Also they all fall under the same HO icon.  At least so far.</DIV>

[papabear0]

<DIV>its not about the tanks or any class, its about the person behind the charater.  some are really good and you can chain cast and have no problems, while theres also some that you have to wait till mob is about 50% health before you can start nuking.  best thing to do is watch how much agro a tank has and adjust your play style towards that. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is also not totally about tanks either, its also bout wizzys.  this is what separates the good ones (the ones who understand agro) and the bad ones( button mashers).</DIV>

[greenhor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> papabear005 wrote:<BR> <DIV> best thing to do is watch how much agro a tank has and adjust your play style towards that. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I think this gets to the heart of the matter.  How do you tell how much aggro a tank has built up?  Is there any visual indication to relay this info?<BR> <DIV> </DIV>

[Kestrill]

<blockquote><hr>greenhorn1 wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>papabear005 wrote:<BR><DIV> best thing to do is watch how much agro a tank has and adjust your play style towards that. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV><HR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I think this gets to the heart of the matter. How do you tell how much aggro a tank has built up? Is there any visual indication to relay this info?<BR><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>While you cannot see a "number" for the hate level, when the tank taunts the mob, the mob will breifly turn red under most performance settings.I am currently level 39, and I have found that after just one taunt I can usually chain cast without pulling the mob away. If the tank is doing his job correctly, however, he will taunt continusly throughout the fight whenever his taunt recycles.

[isthisana]

<blockquote><hr>Kestrill wrote:<blockquote><hr>greenhorn1 wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>papabear005 wrote:<BR><DIV> best thing to do is watch how much agro a tank has and adjust your play style towards that. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV><HR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I think this gets to the heart of the matter. How do you tell how much aggro a tank has built up? Is there any visual indication to relay this info?<BR><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>While you cannot see a "number" for the hate level, when the tank taunts the mob, the mob will breifly turn red under most performance settings.I am currently level 39, and I have found that after just one taunt I can usually chain cast without pulling the mob away. If the tank is doing his job correctly, however, he will taunt continusly throughout the fight whenever his taunt recycles.<hr></blockquote>Kestril really hit on the key. Watch for the mobs to briefly turn red, this is when the taunt has landed. You can also see if it was a single target or AE taunt by if only one mob turns red and not the others. DO NOT USE AOE spells until the tank had landed an AE Taunt - this is a sure fire recipe for death. When farming greys or low greens I have had many occasions where the tank stops AE taunting (because the power costs and timers) and if I use an AE spells the mobs are coming straight to me.Occasionally taunts seem to get resisted - they will flash red but you will do the same thing you have done 100 times before and the mob will be on you like white on rice. I do not know if this is because of a partial or full resist of the taunt, but don't run. Perhaps cast a stun to let the tank retaunt and stay where you are so the cleric can cast a heal.Anywho.Saerin

[TunaBoo]

Nah you guys are playing too safe, at least for the current DPS situation. Throw a dot up on the way back.. the tank will taunt before your dot lands, and 1 taunt is the aggro of like 20 dots at once.. not gonna be a problem.

[Klu]

Well with any other tank I would say you need to control your agro better, but with a Guardian it just sounds like poor tanking. With the "Hold the Line" line of spells a Guardian should have no problem keeping agro off a nuke happy wizard, I sure havnt. Using that and creating many HO's which all end in a taunt I have never had anyone steal agro from me except either a Bard or Priest with multiple mobs.

[Tanit]

<blockquote><hr>Marcalus wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Tanith_ wrote:<BR>A chaincasting wizard shouldnt get aggro with a good tank.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Pure high-aggro chaincasting will and should get you killed...dancing the aggro line is part of the fun of playing a wizard.<hr></blockquote>No it doesnt. I always chaincast as much as possible and never get aggro because of that.

[Raminicus]

<blockquote><hr>Tanith_ wrote:A chaincasting wizard shouldnt get aggro with a good tank.<hr></blockquote>I know this has been talked about alot in here, but I've never seen anyone articulate it exactly the way I'm going to.-It's a caster's job not to get aggro.-It's a tank's job to build hate and not do DPS-It's a healer's job to heal the tank, if someone else gets aggro and dies it's not the healer's or the tank's fault. Yes, the healer SHOULD heal whoever pulled aggro if he/she can, but you set up who's tanking prior to engaging in a fight for a reason other than just because he/she can take the hits better than anyone else.If you have a "bad" tank and pull aggro, well in my opinion it's still the caster's fault. Your job is to not get aggro, therefore you have to take many things into consideration, including keeping an eye on how well the tank is doing. If you notice the tank's not doing what he/she is supposed to, then don't over-do it on nukes. And after the fight, offer some words of advice in a kind manner.I didn't mean to say this is the way it HAS to be, this is just a system I like to stick to because it's easy and makes sense.

[DeathKnight]

tanks have different abilities that allow them to gain high aggro (taunts), especially some of the better aoe ones. a good tank will let you be able to cast quite a bit, but you have to make sure that you don't get nuke happy at the beginning. At the start of the fight the tank will usually throw a taunt or two to get high aggro. Wait a sec or two and let the dots fly by this time the rest of the group and mostly the tank should have built up enough aggro for you not to get hit. By now you start off with the nukes, i prefer starting off slow then throwing everything in by the middle of the fight. If you get hit stop casting right away and sit there like a punching bag, it sucks but it will allow the tank to taunt (overcome your aggro) a lot easier and pull the mob back. Some tanks are better than others, but you have to adjust your style of play also otherwise you'll be spreading your debt around to your group. After the first fight or two you can see whats going on and figure out your strategy. As tanks lvl up they get better taunts so they should be able to hold aggro better. We will see what happens with the upcoming patch. If the adjustments to tank taunts will overcome the buff to wizards and keep the mobs off of us.

[Tanit]

<blockquote><hr>Raminicus wrote:<blockquote><hr>Tanith_ wrote:A chaincasting wizard shouldnt get aggro with a good tank.<hr></blockquote>I know this has been talked about alot in here, but I've never seen anyone articulate it exactly the way I'm going to.-It's a caster's job not to get aggro.-It's a tank's job to build hate and not do DPS-It's a healer's job to heal the tank, if someone else gets aggro and dies it's not the healer's or the tank's fault. Yes, the healer SHOULD heal whoever pulled aggro if he/she can, but you set up who's tanking prior to engaging in a fight for a reason other than just because he/she can take the hits better than anyone else.If you have a "bad" tank and pull aggro, well in my opinion it's still the caster's fault. Your job is to not get aggro, therefore you have to take many things into consideration, including keeping an eye on how well the tank is doing. If you notice the tank's not doing what he/she is supposed to, then don't over-do it on nukes. And after the fight, offer some words of advice in a kind manner.I didn't mean to say this is the way it HAS to be, this is just a system I like to stick to because it's easy and makes sense.<hr></blockquote>My point was that if a tank is doing his job a wizard wont get aggro. We just dont do enough dmg for that, even when chaincasting. I assume this will change after the patch, it would be nice to have to care about not gaining too much aggro as a mage.

[Kestrill]

<blockquote><hr>Tanith_ wrote:<blockquote><hr>Raminicus wrote:<blockquote><hr>Tanith_ wrote:A chaincasting wizard shouldnt get aggro with a good tank.<hr></blockquote>I know this has been talked about alot in here, but I've never seen anyone articulate it exactly the way I'm going to.-It's a caster's job not to get aggro.-It's a tank's job to build hate and not do DPS-It's a healer's job to heal the tank, if someone else gets aggro and dies it's not the healer's or the tank's fault. Yes, the healer SHOULD heal whoever pulled aggro if he/she can, but you set up who's tanking prior to engaging in a fight for a reason other than just because he/she can take the hits better than anyone else.If you have a "bad" tank and pull aggro, well in my opinion it's still the caster's fault. Your job is to not get aggro, therefore you have to take many things into consideration, including keeping an eye on how well the tank is doing. If you notice the tank's not doing what he/she is supposed to, then don't over-do it on nukes. And after the fight, offer some words of advice in a kind manner.I didn't mean to say this is the way it HAS to be, this is just a system I like to stick to because it's easy and makes sense.<hr></blockquote>My point was that if a tank is doing his job a wizard wont get aggro. We just dont do enough dmg for that, even when chaincasting. I assume this will change after the patch, it would be nice to have to care about not gaining too much aggro as a mage.<hr></blockquote>It is sad, but at the level I am (lvl 40) I can chain cast with an assassin tanking (who has no taunts) after that assassin makes his initial strike. I do between 70 - 120 dps, and it is still not enough.I, for one, am looking forward to being able to taking agg after the next big patch. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />