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Old 08-08-2012, 11:55 PM   #31
Novusod

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Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:

Novusod wrote:

- I am refering to raid buffed stats (priest buff + bard specced for defensive songs) and in that regard most geared raid plate tanks will hit the mitigation cap but brawlers cannot.

Brawlers shouldn't be hitting mit cap anyway. What's even the point of having leather? In theory, even scouts should have more mit.

I am not saying brawlers should be hitting the mitigation cap. The point I am trying to make here is how do you justify plate tanks having superior mitigation and avoidance that equals or surpasses a brawlers. Tanking is set up in two ways: avoidance tanking and mitigation tanking. Plate tanks are gaining a monopoly on both. The current situation is not ballanced. Plate tanks are just straight up superior atm.

- Every tank has equal access to dodge chance (see 3% dodge food and drink + over cap defense turns into dodge chance). Defection no longer exists since it was merged with block chance a few years ago.

So we're equal here.

It is a small part of the problem but not the main point.

- Shields have trade offs this much is true. Shields have just as much stats as an offhand so you don't lose too much considering there is a swing penalty for dual wielding.

Yea, ok.

Shields also get the added bonus of being able to keep your uncontested avoidance in offensive stance while brawlers if they want to use their base avoidance have to stay in defensive stance.

Anything tanked in o-stance is pharm and doesn't matter. I never even use o-stance when I tank anymore, I stay in D and pull more mobs.

Are you pulling multiple names or tanking all the adds + the named in you all powerful D-stance? I certainly can't do that on my brawler. Trash mobs are irelevent if that is what you are talking about.

Disarm only lasts a few seconds and if you are good with positioning a mob should never end up behind you.

A few seconds with no block sucks balls. No matter how good you are at this game, mobs can, do, and will end up behind you.

Before plate tanks started getting brawler like avoidance this did not used to be a big deal. Plate tanks are supposed to mitigate damage. Avoidance is secondary to a plate tank and should not make or break you over a few seconds. Brawlers on the other hand use avoidance as their primary defense. This is why brawlers were given 360 degree avoid + disarmed avoidance because it is their primary way of defending themselves.

- The point about increasing levels is that brawler's base avoidance does not change with the better gear. Base avoidance for brawlers always remains at 24% while plate tanks will just keep getting better and better shields which will give them higher and higher avoidance. Brawlers can get +block chance on gear but this is not as good as base block.

So far this hasn't happened and isn't a problem, but thanks for your concern.

It already has happened with Mythical shield update. There are already some plate tanks with more avoidance than brawlers. That is what this thread is about.

Just checking but I am sure I got all the ducks in a row on this one.

It seems like you are argueing from the standpoint that plate tanks entitled to having both superior mitigation and avoidance. Having your cake and eating it too is not ballance. There is no point to having avoidance tanks in the game if the brawlers are not given an avoidance advantage over the mitigation tanks.

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Old 08-09-2012, 12:00 AM   #32
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If you want to complain about itemization giving plates an advantage. It's definately not because brawlers still can get two 30% + Block Weapons. SMILEY

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Old 08-09-2012, 12:27 AM   #33
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Corydonn wrote:

If you want to complain about itemization giving plates an advantage. It's definately not because brawlers still can get two 30% + Block Weapons.

Are these 30+% weapons even dropping in game any more?  I know of some that are old HM drunder, and think the new ones have it as an ability so it will not stack.  Am i wrong... please tell me i am wrong? does any one have in game links for the new brawler deffensive HM drunder weapons?

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Old 08-09-2012, 01:35 AM   #34
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Corydonn wrote:

If you want to complain about itemization giving plates an advantage. It's definately not because brawlers still can get two 30% + Block Weapons.

You do realize there is a difference between protection base block chance and + block mod. These are not interchanageable where 30% + block mod does not equal 30% block chance. The block mod is 30% of 24% which works out as a 7.2% real avoidance gain. Plate tanks get + block mod their shields as well. The Mythical Shield has 39% block mod on it. Lets not forget all the shield effectiveness AA that plate tanks also recieve is basically the same thing as + block. Geared plate tanks don't have trouble getting over 60% + block mod. All in all a fully geared plate tank with a mythical shield will have more avoidance than a brawler with +block weapons.

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Old 08-09-2012, 02:14 AM   #35
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Novusod wrote:

Corydonn wrote:

If you want to complain about itemization giving plates an advantage. It's definately not because brawlers still can get two 30% + Block Weapons.

You do realize there is a difference between protection base block chance and + block mod. These are not interchanageable where 30% + block mod does not equal 30% block chance. The block mod is 30% of 24% which works out as a 7.2% real avoidance gain. Plate tanks get + block mod their shields as well. The Mythical Shield has 39% block mod on it. Lets not forget all the shield effectiveness AA that plate tanks also recieve is basically the same thing as + block. Geared plate tanks don't have trouble getting over 60% + block mod. All in all a fully geared plate tank with a mythical shield will have more avoidance than a brawler with +block weapons.

I'm fairly sure the only thing a bigger protection value shield just lowers the block chance a plate tank needs to cap out. Since before brawlers did at 179% block and a plate tank needed 259% or something. Which was imbalanced as it wsa.

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Old 08-09-2012, 04:32 AM   #36
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Corydonn wrote:

Novusod wrote:

Corydonn wrote:

If you want to complain about itemization giving plates an advantage. It's definately not because brawlers still can get two 30% + Block Weapons.

You do realize there is a difference between protection base block chance and + block mod. These are not interchanageable where 30% + block mod does not equal 30% block chance. The block mod is 30% of 24% which works out as a 7.2% real avoidance gain. Plate tanks get + block mod their shields as well. The Mythical Shield has 39% block mod on it. Lets not forget all the shield effectiveness AA that plate tanks also recieve is basically the same thing as + block. Geared plate tanks don't have trouble getting over 60% + block mod. All in all a fully geared plate tank with a mythical shield will have more avoidance than a brawler with +block weapons.

I'm fairly sure the only thing a bigger protection value shield just lowers the block chance a plate tank needs to cap out. Since before brawlers did at 179% block and a plate tank needed 259% or something. Which was imbalanced as it wsa.

Really Corydonn you seem to have trouble putting two and two together here. If you say that was imbalanced when plate tanks needed more + block to cap out than a brawler then the new paradigm must be even more imbalanced now that the situation is reversed.

You see with a mythical shield a plate now has a greater base protection value than the bralwer shield.

Brawler has a static 24% avoidance that is roughly equal to 2200 protection. If a brawler has 179% + block mod they cap out at 66.9% real avoidance.

With a mythical sheild 2230 protection equalling 24.24% base avoidance the same 66.9% real avoidance cap can be reached with just  176% +block mod now.

Is it fair? Is it ballanced? I am going to say NO WAY especially considering the brawler is supposed to be the avoidance tank here. This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt I am correct here in saying that plate tanks have surpased brawlers in terms of avoidance.

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Old 08-09-2012, 04:38 AM   #37
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Yes because brawlers have options to 30% block chance items. For both hands.

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Old 08-09-2012, 05:13 AM   #38
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Novusod wrote:

Are you pulling multiple names or tanking all the adds + the named in you all powerful D-stance? I certainly can't do that on my brawler.

Often I end up temporarily tanking the named and multiple adds, yea.

Trash mobs are irelevent if that is what you are talking about.

O-stance is irrelevant.

Brawlers on the other hand use avoidance as their primary defense. This is why brawlers were given 360 degree avoid + disarmed avoidance because it is their primary way of defending themselves.

So then brawlers have superior avoidance as I agree they should.

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Old 08-09-2012, 05:56 AM   #39
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Corydonn wrote:

Yes because brawlers have options to 30% block chance items. For both hands.

Please reread my earlier post:

Novusod wrote:

You do realize there is a difference between protection base block chance and + block mod. These are not interchanageable where 30% + block mod does not equal 30% block chance. The block mod is 30% of 24% which works out as a 7.2% real avoidance gain. Plate tanks get + block mod their shields as well. The Mythical Shield has 39% block mod on it. Lets not forget all the shield effectiveness AA that plate tanks also recieve is basically the same thing as + block. Geared plate tanks don't have trouble getting over 60% +block mod. All in all a fully geared plate tank with a mythical shield will have more avoidance than a brawler with +block weapons.

Having to get two +30% block items is not an advantage when plate takes can get the same or better avoidacne with just one shield.

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Old 08-09-2012, 06:10 AM   #40
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Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:

Novusod wrote:

Are you pulling multiple names or tanking all the adds + the named in you all powerful D-stance? I certainly can't do that on my brawler.

Often I end up temporarily tanking the named and multiple adds, yea.

Trash mobs are irelevent if that is what you are talking about.

O-stance is irrelevant.

Brawlers on the other hand use avoidance as their primary defense. This is why brawlers were given 360 degree avoid + disarmed avoidance because it is their primary way of defending themselves.

So then brawlers have superior avoidance as I agree they should.

Your conclusion is way off base. So brawlers get to have a few seconds of superior avoidance while being disarmed for a few seconds while 99.5% of the rest of the fight the plate tank has better avoidance. That is not even close to being ballanced. Pop a temp if you are so concerned about being disarmed it will more than cover the 4 or 5 seconds you are disarmed.

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Old 08-09-2012, 06:18 AM   #41
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A mythical shield. Quit trying to get other classes nerfed since this is obviously a plate tank troll topic of being mad.

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Old 08-09-2012, 06:22 AM   #42
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Corydonn wrote:

A mythical shield. Quit trying to get other classes nerfed since this is obviously a plate tank troll topic of being mad.

In other words you conceed the point because you lost the argument on all logical grounds.

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Old 08-09-2012, 07:38 AM   #43
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Novusod wrote:

Corydonn wrote:

A mythical shield. Quit trying to get other classes nerfed since this is obviously a plate tank troll topic of being mad.

In other words you conceed the point because you lost the argument on all logical grounds.

There is no logic behind what you are saying a brawler with block weapons will have more avoidance than a plate tank with myth shield. There is no winning with you, "My ideas are right even ripostes effecting fail effects because I say so."

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Old 08-09-2012, 01:24 PM   #44
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He also continuously ignores the shield is level 90.

A level 1 plate tank with a handcrafted shield has like 60% uncontested block. mad?

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Old 08-10-2012, 12:21 AM   #45
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Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:

He also continuously ignores the shield is level 90.

A level 1 plate tank with a handcrafted shield has like 60% uncontested block. mad?

It is the level of the wearer not the level of the shield that matters. The reason a level 1 plate tank got 60% uncontested block from even the junkiest of shields was because a level 1 character required very little block protection to reach the cap. This was tested quite extensively a few years back. A level 92 player with 2230 protection gains 24.24% block. The level of the shield does not change the conversion. If you have a different formula that proves I wrong I would like to see it.

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Old 08-10-2012, 01:09 AM   #46
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A level 92 player will get more block from a level 92 shield with 2k protection than a level 90 shield with 2k protection.

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Old 08-10-2012, 03:46 AM   #47
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ok, i just did a basic test. a lvl 26 Pally with a shield, had 17.9% Block Chance. leveled to 27 and maxed Defensive skilled. Same shield, block is know 16.6%. so the level of the user does have an effect on the % of block you get from a shield. If there is something wrong with my test let me know.
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Old 08-10-2012, 07:38 AM   #48
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What I believe is that Shield Block Chance is actually contested with Enemy's Level.

What detemines Actuall block chance are 1,Item Level of the Shield 2,Protection of the Shield 3,Block Chance Mod 4,Enemy's Level who attacks you.

What Persona window show us is just X% only when the opponent is at your level.

I can be wrong but at least i believe so.

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Old 08-10-2012, 01:33 PM   #49
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EverDog wrote:

I can be wrong but at least i believe so.

You are wrong, block is uncontested regardless of anyone's level, and it's been this way for YEARS.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=481258

If you don't belive the post from Xelgad himself, make a level 1 tank and pull city guards and marvel as you block 60% of their auto attacks.

And yes, a lower level shield gives less block chance than a higher level shield with the same protection. Want to know a secret? Physical and magical mitigation work the same way and have for YEARS. People need to learn how the game works before they argue about avoidance balance.

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Old 08-10-2012, 06:33 PM   #50
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Novusod wrote:

mythical shield

Novusod wrote:

mythical shield

Novusod wrote:

mythical shield

Novusod wrote:

mythical shield

Novusod wrote:

mythical shield

Novusod wrote:

mythical shield

You have officially said 'Mythical shield" more times in this thread than exist in the game.  If you're worried about future itemization in the fall GU then maybe wait until the GU hits the test server to see what the itemization is going to be.  If your P.O.'ed about 6 plate fighters having a higher avoid/mit than 2600 brawlers than just forget it.

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Old 08-10-2012, 08:49 PM   #51
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The fact still remains a level 92 plate tank with the best sheild in the game will have more avoidance than the best brawlers. There are only a handful of raiding slots a the high end and if there are more of these shields than are slots than brawlers could end up getting shut out of the top tier raid game. They are making the next GU as this debate is going on. Supposedly these mythicals will be needed to defeat Kerafyrm and will be made even better afterward. This thread is to ensure that brawlers get adjusted so they are always top in avoidance and remain viable tanks in raids.

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Old 08-10-2012, 10:24 PM   #52
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Novusod wrote:

brawlers could end up getting shut out of the top tier raid game. 

You make it sound like brawlers are liker zerkers and arent still amazing tanks.. You must be terrible if you feel like brawlers are this close to no longer being viable tank options...

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Old 08-10-2012, 11:20 PM   #53
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I did very well as a tank prior to GU64 but after the great brawler nerf not so well. My bruiser is in pretty much the same boat as my Zerker. The Zerker is actually very under rated right now for some fights because of their passive and temp ability to heal through unwardable damage. Meanwhile the bruiser is incredibly weak against this type of damage. If I dodge I take damage, if I get hit I take damage. Lose - Lose situation. The whole deal has me considering just switching to Zerker. 

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Old 08-10-2012, 11:41 PM   #54
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The game was just cleared by a guild with two bruisers on the roster. Arguement invalid.

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Old 08-11-2012, 12:14 AM   #55
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Wow just wow.. You think every other class doesnt have to deal with the on melee or the on avoid damage?? Ill give you a hint that im sure you knew being the tanking guru you clearly are.. The avoid one? doesnt hit for as much and the on hit one? doesnt hit for much now either.. GL with tanking on a zerker tho, clearly that will solve all your tanking problems.. Im surprised all the other end game raiding zerkers arent doing as well as the brawlers are, oh wait, im not surprised..

Whats hilarious is you are talking about how you are going to switch to your zerker (lol) because your bruiser is so bad (lol) when like cory said the xpac was just cleared using 2 bruisers... You cant make this stuff up man.

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Old 08-11-2012, 01:07 AM   #56
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Novusod wrote:

The fact still remains a level 92 plate tank with the best sheild in the game will have more avoidance than the best brawlers.

Avoidance reports or it didn't happen.

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Old 08-11-2012, 01:47 AM   #57
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Faildozer@Permafrost wrote:

Wow just wow.. You think every other class doesnt have to deal with the on melee or the on avoid damage?? Ill give you a hint that im sure you knew being the tanking guru you clearly are.. The avoid one? doesnt hit for as much and the on hit one? doesnt hit for much now either.. GL with tanking on a zerker tho, clearly that will solve all your tanking problems.. Im surprised all the other end game raiding zerkers arent doing as well as the brawlers are, oh wait, im not surprised..

Whats hilarious is you are talking about how you are going to switch to your zerker (lol) because your bruiser is so bad (lol) when like cory said the xpac was just cleared using 2 bruisers... You cant make this stuff up man.

That is not true. Goreslaughter's on hit damage for my bruiser was between 16k to 18k while the on avoid damage was between 30k and 38k. Guess which one was killing me faster. Bruiser is pretty much junk tank while taking that kind of damage.

Also the Mythical Shield on Eq2wire is reading as level 92 with 2230 protection and there are atleast 15 of them floating around. Probably are 100s of them considering they drop from Sky Shrine instance that can be farmed every 90 minutes. So lets stop with lying about shield level lets get back on topic of plate tanks having more avoidance than brawlers.

Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:

Avoidance reports or it didn't happen.

I will get you an avoidance report as soon as I am done farming my own mythical shield.

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Old 08-11-2012, 02:07 AM   #58
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Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:

If you don't belive the post from Xelgad himself, make a level 1 tank and pull city guards and marvel as you block 60% of their auto attacks

I heard that there is 'protecting lvl 1 chatacter system' which provide a massive avoidance bonus to lvl 1 character.

If this is the case, you can not test anything by using lvl 1 character.

Also, if protections and mitigations are not contested with Enemy's level but your own level,

it will bring a problem like you hit next level and you lose your actual block chance and mitigation

that sounds strange.

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Old 08-11-2012, 02:59 AM   #59
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EverDog wrote:

Also, if protections and mitigations are not contested with Enemy's level but your own level,

it will bring a problem like you hit next level and you lose your actual block chance and mitigation

that sounds strange.

Well... that's exactly how it works. Haven't you ever looked at the percent mitigation you get on a piece of gear? It says right on the gear how much you get and as you level up, it goes down. Ever looked at your block chance after you level up? I have some bad news for ya... it goes down.

Block chance can be tested at any level... if you are level 30 with 20% block chance you should expect to block roughly 20% auto attacks from level 100x4 mobs. Which, a level 30 blocking anything from a 100x4 pretty much proves it's uncontested. I mean, I can prove it to you guys if you want, but it's gonna be a day or two before I have the time and feel like it. As if Xelgad's word isn't proof enough.

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Old 08-11-2012, 05:37 AM   #60
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Novusod wrote:

The fact still remains a level 92 plate tank with the best sheild in the game will have more avoidance than the best brawlers.

Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote:

Avoidance reports or it didn't happen.

I will get you an avoidance report as soon as I am done farming my own mythical shield.

So you have no proof or any way to test/prove it... got it.

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