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Old 07-22-2011, 12:31 PM   #31
ffd700

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The Djinn Master warps like a mad man when trying to maneuver him into the center of the circle of instruments, regardless of what class is tanking it.

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Old 07-23-2011, 12:27 PM   #32
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I have to fully agree with Feldon that this only started as a result of the changes to mob's auto attack range going up to 5 meters and the subsequent changes that were an attempt to fix the dancing issue related to that.

The issue for mob warping and inability to properly place a mob because more evident the larger the creature is. With DoV, all the the raid targets are giants or larger until Drunder came out. The issue isn't game breaking until you reach the size of giant, but it does cause allot of problems and annoyances once the mobs reach this height.

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Old 07-23-2011, 03:23 PM   #33
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The problem is extensive, as are its many negative effects.  Raid AE's being directed forward and blowing people up; spun mobs AE autoattacking and flattening 3 squishies per melee round; fail conditions triggered unfairly; etc etc etc.  Tanking in Velious is a challenge, and it's getting to the point where it's so challenging it's no longer fun.

Concerning the actual warp behavior, Mikill is by far the best guinea pig due to the necessity of keeping him moving.  As posted, I've also noticed that smooth, uninterrupted motion by the tank tends to result in *fewer* warps.  I'm a paladin, so I need to stop in order to cast certain effects; the warp behavior seems to be encouraged by this stop-and-go motion.  The few times I've managed to foist the mob off on a zerker or bruiser, they tend to see a cleaner run, because they don't need to stop to cast.

When Mikill warps, he tends to pop directly onto my head, then run away in some random direction for about 1-2 seconds.  In HM, if he warps and then runs into the middle of the raid, the resulting point-blank AE tends to flatten half the raid.  If he warps and then runs parallel to my line of motion, he will then stop and wait for me to get out of his melee range before he moves again; this encourages the fail condition to trigger.  I have to use Sprint and some very interesting footwork to keep his AE's away from the squishies and keep the mob on the move.

The rest of this post is not specifically related to warping, but is related to the melee range increase which has caused all this trouble:

I imagine most guilds have discovered that the fight with Mikill goes more smoothly when you loop him counterclockwise.  This is because of the behavior mentioned before: mobs like to wiggle their way around the tank in that same CCW direction.  Thus, Mikill tends to keep himself on the outside of the circle, barring aforementioned warps.  This same behavior causes all sorts of mayhem while pulling throughout the entire game, especially pulling large encounters (4+ mobs).  The tank pulls, parks, and the mobs all wiggle around, facing every which direction and scattering AE melee attacks everywhere.  It is nigh impossible to control the heading of a large group- I've given up trying, and just hope my healers aren't among the squishies getting smacked.

Another behavior I've noticed has to do with knockbacks and Z-axis location checking, as posted before.  When a tank is tossed upward, the mob will tend to run underneath you and reverse direction.  Sometimes- but not always- it's possible to jump behind the mob again; this results in a beautiful corner position (until the next fling).  If not, you're stuck tanking with the mob facing outward, dealing bonus AE damage and AE autoattacks.  And you CANNOT re-position the mob without completely destroying the raid's positional stability- the Trinity tank above spelled it out beautifully, you have to run about 50m total to move the mob, and it's likely he'll stop in a position you like even less.  Furthermore, the next fling will, necessarily, kick you out of position all over again.

This gets even more fun on HM Taaltak.  If your tank position is perfect, you fly up the wall and Taaltak moves under you.  If your position is not perfect, you get tossed like a pinball- richocheting off surfaces and flying across the room.  Taaltak then rushes to follow you at hypersonic speeds (literally, runspeed +800% or so).  It takes a miracle to recover this situation in HM; tank and healers are scattered, and tank usually gets squashed before stability can be regained.  This isn't a warp, per se, but it does relate to the entire issue of screwy mob pathing and positioning we've been fighting since Velious release.

The issue of Kael mobs not wanting to climb tiny ledges- that's purely a pathing issue, and not technically related to the warping/circling problems.  Generally speaking, fight the mob on the level he's on to start, and you won't ever see this happen.  The warping problem can exacerbate the pathing problem, and vice versa.

Side note: all these observations are taking place at strong framerates on a reasonably low-lag connection.  Everything I'm seeing, everyone else is seeing too.  The vast majority of the glitches I've described have nothing to do with client lag.  From what I'm hearing here, the newly upgraded servers exhibit the same behaviors, so I think it's safe to rule out server lag as well.  The root of the problem has to do with the melee range extension, and the various patches that "fixed" it, or rather, broke it differently.

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Old 07-23-2011, 07:49 PM   #34
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http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=500958

Mikil is the mob it is most obvious on, if you catch a warp on the hardmode version its pretty much a wipe.  I can see ways of dealing with the warp but TBH I'd just rather wait till the stuff is fixed because those methods are fairly dependant on the timing of the warp which is unpridictable.  I know for a fact this issue has stymied our progression on this mob and to a lesser extent on HM bitelimb (just the fact that we cant position him the way we want) we can kill him just not as cleanly as our strat should allow.  I think the issue is two-fold as previously stated.  The primary being the melee weapon range of the mobs with the z axis tolerances on the mobs being a significant secondary contributing factor. 

There is something to be said for establishing the exact point on the mob that determines it's in game location.  For example on giants is melee range 5m from their feet?  5m from their midesection? or 5m from their head?  This applies to incomming and outgoing.  This ties into the z axis tolerances as well.  Each side room in throne of storms has a raised lip running the perimeter of the room.  We often pull mobs up on top of the lip.  I've noticed, on mordfrost specifically, that I can lose line of sight on another player if they are standing off the lip even though they are right next to me.  I understand that there is a bit of a corner between us (my feet can't see his feet) but the animations do not reflect that.  I certainly have LOS on most of his body.  I could see how this could contribute to the issue with the z axis tolerances, the animation shows that the mob is well within melee range but a groove or a rut in the floor can break LOS thus forcing the mob to close to a much closer distance in order to attack.

Further demonstration of the z axis issue can readily been seen in the Gunnr fight.  Our tank attempts to pull the mob all the way to the wall directly to the mob's  right.  However, Gunnr often gets hung up on the little lip that runs around the room.  Obviously not a huge issue in the fight but a very clear example of something not being quite right.

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Old 07-24-2011, 08:57 PM   #35
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The issue in question has always existed- the Giants and other Mobs who are Enlarged artificially, have always had the issues with positioning and melee range. Since day "one" of EverQuest 2 back in 2004, the Artificially Enlarged Mobs have always been charging forward ontop of the Player (Tank) so that the tank is dead center of the Mob's own "Target Ring"A Simple Fix would to model the Giants so that the target ring is very small around the heels of the Model, and stop increasing the size of the Models artificially. When the Mob is increased in size artificially the Target Ring becomes so extremely large, it defeats the purpose of positioning the Mob because the Mob continuously rushes forward to put the player at the center of it's own ring.   

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Old 07-24-2011, 09:04 PM   #36
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Can anyone say what caused the move of the NPC range out to 5m? What did it actually fix?  The original announcement was silent on the whys, unless I missed it.As best I knew, the melee range for both players and mobs has been 5m since launch.   The recent change just moved how close the mobs could get to you out to 5 from "as close as they could get". We're all aware of the various things it broke, but there seems a stiff but silent SOE resistance to moving it back, so what did it accomplish that I missed the dialog on?

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Old 07-25-2011, 04:23 AM   #37
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Rothgar wrote:

Thank you for the feedback so far.  I'll get this info to QA.  We haven't had any luck reproducing this warping in our own test environment, so I'm not sure if server lag plays a factor or not.

So... 5 pages of posts regarding Mikiil warping in the Zones and Populations forum and zero red responses. Half a page of the EXACT SAME posts here and a response.

I guess what the community is being told is "Stop posting in all other forums regarding problems with the game and post in this forum"?

Thanks for the insightful info. I learned a lot about how to get a red response finally just now SMILEY

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Old 07-25-2011, 04:25 PM   #38
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Just in case it has not been said, Tormax and the staute warp like crazy.  Makes it extremely unfun.

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Old 07-25-2011, 09:11 PM   #39
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You can get some of the mobs to warp in Shard of Love almost all the time.  The dragonfly trash will sometimes form a slow moving circle around my toon.  The fairies will also warp.  They usually on warp around if you are standing on top of the bench in middle of the trees.

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Old 07-25-2011, 09:29 PM   #40
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Something I've been noticing lately A LOT:

I'll tag a mob to pull it and it will instantly start running at super-warp-speed. It will path like crazy and just zoom across the screen. It takes a good 30 seconds for the mob to calm the eff down and act normal, especially if it's on uneven terrain or a ramp. This is REALLY annoying when it happens to raid bosses and casting an AE inside the raid within 1 second of pull. Happens in any zone really. See it with giants more often than not. Seems completely random...

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Old 07-26-2011, 07:52 AM   #41
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Glenolas wrote:

Can anyone say what caused the move of the NPC range out to 5m? What did it actually fix?  The original announcement was silent on the whys, unless I missed it.As best I knew, the melee range for both players and mobs has been 5m since launch.   The recent change just moved how close the mobs could get to you out to 5 from "as close as they could get". We're all aware of the various things it broke, but there seems a stiff but silent SOE resistance to moving it back, so what did it accomplish that I missed the dialog on?

It was never explained (even in Velious beta) exactly why it was changed from 2m to 5m. Rangers (and to a lesser extent Troubadors and Dirges) have sorta filled in the blanks and guessed that it was done so we don't have to kite to use all our combat arts. But again, no reason has ever been officially given. We figure it would have taken the team longer to change all our ranged combat arts to have a minimum range of 2m, or they might not want to have done this on the basis that they may invent a mob down the road that intentionally stays at 2m, preventing ranged DPS.

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Old 07-26-2011, 09:00 PM   #42
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I think a major cause of the current warping was the increase of ground mount speed to 130-150% and mobs are setting their speed to match it at times even in combat. I've had HM Tormax pulls wipe simply because Tormax speeds up to 150% on a move or warps. Then takes two steps out into the raid to get into autoattack range.

I think it's a valid thing to look into because our force uses a majority of ground mounts over the flying ones.

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Old 07-27-2011, 04:14 AM   #43
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We got hm mikill on farm a long time before mob pathing update. We havent killed it since the update. Its broken as far as im concerned. Why should we be trying different ways to pull this mob when we killed it months ago?

Slightly bemused. But not as bemused as members of our raidforce who dont have red slot cloak yet.

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Old 07-27-2011, 05:02 PM   #44
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Re: Karsten's post above...I am MT(Pally) for The Watchers on Guk and that is the exact same behavior I see on Mikill.  He runs smooth, then ports, then truns and runs away, then comes back.  I am at the point where I only cast taunts, which I don't have to stop to do, and shoot arrows at him because if I stop it makes him start porting and its a PITA....We have killed HM Mikill once as well, and it did it too, but as Karsten pointed out...It isn't as bad as long as you don't stop.  The script makes you stop sometimes, even for 1/2 sec while a cure is cast, so that sets up the warp issue as well.  On EM its easy enough to get him moving again, as you have more time.  on HM...if he warps right to you, by the time you get out of range and him moving again its a fail script.  The redcution of melee range would make that simpler as well.  

As stated by others Statue does it too..and I agree...the extended melee range makes positioning any giant or larger mob such as statue a huge PITA.   

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Old 07-28-2011, 08:44 AM   #45
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was soloing around with my necro today and mobs in everfrost where porting

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Old 07-28-2011, 03:02 PM   #46
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It has nothing to do with ground speed, it's entirely in the movement AI on npcs.

Rothgar, I can reproduce this behavior with any epic target in Velious, it is not lag dependent.   It is 100% reproducable. 

Run in a large 30-50 meter circle, but rather than running constantly, start and stop every 15 - 20 meters, possibly add a strafe in on the stop and restart.

I'm happy to fraps this for you guys if you need it.

I suspect there is something in the code that is a check for pathing exploits that when the mob can not path to target and can not maintain melee range, the epic target simply warps to destination waypoint.  For giant models, when this happens the mob reverses direction, runs away from its target, then spins around and resumes auto attack.   If the targets locatoin moves durring this process the entire scenario repeats itself.  The reversing is cause it warps to the exact x,y,z of the target, and cause of the massive difference in model sizes it freaks out since the target is now inside the mob's model due to sizing (negative range to target calculation?).  If you adjust this warp to the x,y,z that represents the minimum engadgement range to the actor instead of the actor's actual location I think some of this will be cleaned up.

A target constantly moving is FAR less likely to cause the issue for whatever reason, probably due to predicted actor working as you expect it to.  I assume your using predicted actor to base the mob's intercept trajectory on.  When we stop and start the predicted actor isn't updated fast enough in the trajectory calculations and it sets off the epic pathing exploit protection.

I could be off base, but that is exactly what it appears to be.

I'm sure others are seeing some warpings that are unrelated to this and probably have everything to do with latency, but the issue with epic targets is not latency driven, it is something in the trajectory/pathing exploit prevention.

Good Luck,

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Old 07-29-2011, 01:59 AM   #47
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Killed hm mikil since last post. Still warped though.

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Old 07-31-2011, 01:57 AM   #48
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Atan@Unrest wrote:

It has nothing to do with ground speed, it's entirely in the movement AI on npcs.

Rothgar, I can reproduce this behavior with any epic target in Velious, it is not lag dependent.   It is 100% reproducable. 

Run in a large 30-50 meter circle, but rather than running constantly, start and stop every 15 - 20 meters, possibly add a strafe in on the stop and restart.

I'm happy to fraps this for you guys if you need it.

I suspect there is something in the code that is a check for pathing exploits that when the mob can not path to target and can not maintain melee range, the epic target simply warps to destination waypoint.  For giant models, when this happens the mob reverses direction, runs away from its target, then spins around and resumes auto attack.   If the targets locatoin moves durring this process the entire scenario repeats itself.  The reversing is cause it warps to the exact x,y,z of the target, and cause of the massive difference in model sizes it freaks out since the target is now inside the mob's model due to sizing (negative range to target calculation?).  If you adjust this warp to the x,y,z that represents the minimum engadgement range to the actor instead of the actor's actual location I think some of this will be cleaned up.

A target constantly moving is FAR less likely to cause the issue for whatever reason, probably due to predicted actor working as you expect it to.  I assume your using predicted actor to base the mob's intercept trajectory on.  When we stop and start the predicted actor isn't updated fast enough in the trajectory calculations and it sets off the epic pathing exploit protection.

I could be off base, but that is exactly what it appears to be.

I'm sure others are seeing some warpings that are unrelated to this and probably have everything to do with latency, but the issue with epic targets is not latency driven, it is something in the trajectory/pathing exploit prevention.

Good Luck,

Atan

This is 100% the answer, I wondered why it kept happening to me over the other tanks! You are the man Atan.

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Old 08-06-2011, 01:46 AM   #49
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Please take a look at this video. Some of the worst warping I have ever seen on Mikill today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcSsiTDaxIA

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Old 08-06-2011, 02:01 AM   #50
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Remove the mechanic that makes epic mobs attune to your current rate of movement and give them a normal rate of movement. Warping problem solved.

*dusts hands off* You don't have to thank me.

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Old 08-06-2011, 12:14 PM   #51
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Atan@Unrest wrote:

It has nothing to do with ground speed, it's entirely in the movement AI on npcs.

Rothgar, I can reproduce this behavior with any epic target in Velious, it is not lag dependent.   It is 100% reproducable. 

Run in a large 30-50 meter circle, but rather than running constantly, start and stop every 15 - 20 meters, possibly add a strafe in on the stop and restart.

I'm happy to fraps this for you guys if you need it.

I suspect there is something in the code that is a check for pathing exploits that when the mob can not path to target and can not maintain melee range, the epic target simply warps to destination waypoint.  For giant models, when this happens the mob reverses direction, runs away from its target, then spins around and resumes auto attack.   If the targets locatoin moves durring this process the entire scenario repeats itself.  The reversing is cause it warps to the exact x,y,z of the target, and cause of the massive difference in model sizes it freaks out since the target is now inside the mob's model due to sizing (negative range to target calculation?).  If you adjust this warp to the x,y,z that represents the minimum engadgement range to the actor instead of the actor's actual location I think some of this will be cleaned up.

A target constantly moving is FAR less likely to cause the issue for whatever reason, probably due to predicted actor working as you expect it to.  I assume your using predicted actor to base the mob's intercept trajectory on.  When we stop and start the predicted actor isn't updated fast enough in the trajectory calculations and it sets off the epic pathing exploit protection.

I could be off base, but that is exactly what it appears to be.

I'm sure others are seeing some warpings that are unrelated to this and probably have everything to do with latency, but the issue with epic targets is not latency driven, it is something in the trajectory/pathing exploit prevention.

Good Luck,

Atan

This affects all mobs to a degree. I've had rooted kobolds warp right in my face repeatedly when I move, and they also do that spinning thing when trying to get into position to melee.

Not denying its annoying but they've been doing it since day one that I remember.

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Old 08-07-2011, 01:52 AM   #52
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Pawbuster does this as well, it makes positioning him on top of his grate all the more frustrating.

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Old 08-07-2011, 03:06 AM   #53
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ffd700 wrote:

Pawbuster does this as well, it makes positioning him on top of his grate all the more frustrating.

Many large mobs have done this for quite some time.

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Old 08-08-2011, 02:02 PM   #54
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Sakiri@Crushbone wrote:

This affects all mobs to a degree. I've had rooted kobolds warp right in my face repeatedly when I move, and they also do that spinning thing when trying to get into position to melee.

Not denying its annoying but they've been doing it since day one that I remember.

Actually, before the 'dancing mob' fixes, and trying to fix how mobs always slide to the left, the behavior I described was not repeatable and was more a fluke when it happened.

Since those changes, and the attempts to fix those changes, the behavior I described is now 100% repeatable and not a fluke.

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Old 08-15-2011, 04:08 PM   #55
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Atan@Unrest wrote:

It has nothing to do with ground speed, it's entirely in the movement AI on npcs.

Rothgar, I can reproduce this behavior with any epic target in Velious, it is not lag dependent.   It is 100% reproducable. 

Run in a large 30-50 meter circle, but rather than running constantly, start and stop every 15 - 20 meters, possibly add a strafe in on the stop and restart.

I'm happy to fraps this for you guys if you need it.

I suspect there is something in the code that is a check for pathing exploits that when the mob can not path to target and can not maintain melee range, the epic target simply warps to destination waypoint.  For giant models, when this happens the mob reverses direction, runs away from its target, then spins around and resumes auto attack.   If the targets locatoin moves durring this process the entire scenario repeats itself.  The reversing is cause it warps to the exact x,y,z of the target, and cause of the massive difference in model sizes it freaks out since the target is now inside the mob's model due to sizing (negative range to target calculation?).  If you adjust this warp to the x,y,z that represents the minimum engadgement range to the actor instead of the actor's actual location I think some of this will be cleaned up.

A target constantly moving is FAR less likely to cause the issue for whatever reason, probably due to predicted actor working as you expect it to.  I assume your using predicted actor to base the mob's intercept trajectory on.  When we stop and start the predicted actor isn't updated fast enough in the trajectory calculations and it sets off the epic pathing exploit protection.

I could be off base, but that is exactly what it appears to be.

I'm sure others are seeing some warpings that are unrelated to this and probably have everything to do with latency, but the issue with epic targets is not latency driven, it is something in the trajectory/pathing exploit prevention.

Good Luck,

Atan

I'm going to guess a lot of it has to do with the side to side movements. I have a huge number of mobs freak out when I am placeing them or when I am constantly moving like Mikil (have tanked both EM and HM and both freak out, Paladin)

I will do a bit of testing tonight to see if I can make it jump by moving side to side when pulling, Thanks

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Old 08-15-2011, 04:54 PM   #56
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Sakiri@Crushbone wrote:

This affects all mobs to a degree. I've had rooted kobolds warp right in my face repeatedly when I move, and they also do that spinning thing when trying to get into position to melee.

Not denying its annoying but they've been doing it since day one that I remember.

Rooted mobs warping may not be related.  That has been going on for a long, long time.

If you root a mob and for whatever reason get close enough, they will Joust you if they are a Crusader.  There are actually a few abilities like this that I've seen NPC's use to "warp" themselves close, some may even be NPC racials.

The spinning is a result of them getting right to the center of your location and not knowing how to melee you.

There was even a raid mob in Underfoot Depths, I want to say it was Regulus (the rock one) who was a Shadowknight and would Joust me all the time coming off an AE cast.  Once I realized what was happening I kind of got a kick out of it.

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Old 08-15-2011, 11:44 PM   #57
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Novusod wrote:

Please take a look at this video. Some of the worst warping I have ever seen on Mikill today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcSsiTDaxIA

Omg, the music is beautiful!  /thumbs up

Yah, we killed Mikill the other night, it was a near replica of what's on the vid.

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Old 08-15-2011, 11:48 PM   #58
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Banditman wrote:

Sakiri@Crushbone wrote:

This affects all mobs to a degree. I've had rooted kobolds warp right in my face repeatedly when I move, and they also do that spinning thing when trying to get into position to melee.

Not denying its annoying but they've been doing it since day one that I remember.

Rooted mobs warping may not be related.  That has been going on for a long, long time.

If you root a mob and for whatever reason get close enough, they will Joust you if they are a Crusader.  There are actually a few abilities like this that I've seen NPC's use to "warp" themselves close, some may even be NPC racials.

The spinning is a result of them getting right to the center of your location and not knowing how to melee you.

There was even a raid mob in Underfoot Depths, I want to say it was Regulus (the rock one) who was a Shadowknight and would Joust me all the time coming off an AE cast.  Once I realized what was happening I kind of got a kick out of it.

There's mobs around Fina's that do that.  I've seen wolves, badgers, felines (any type) do this.

There are many teleporting CAs and since the mobs have what the toons do, figured that is what it was: the mob's version of it.  Still a pain though to root it and it bites your face off in a port.

Most mobs tend to be SK or Bruisers I've noticed, so thinking it's their CAs we're seeing.

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Old 08-16-2011, 01:11 PM   #59
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Novusod wrote:

Please take a look at this video. Some of the worst warping I have ever seen on Mikill today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcSsiTDaxIA

I love how the mob teleports itself right into the center of the raid... the one place you are trying to keep him from standing.  I have seen complete wipes due to this.  Port to center of raid and AE..... Game over.

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Old 08-16-2011, 02:03 PM   #60
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Yeah, we did Mikill again last night and almost wiped because of that very same thing.  Half the raid went kersplat.  Went from the 5% he had left back up to like, 45%.  Was infuriating to say the least. 

Also, haven't heard from Rothgar or any admins in a while on this.  Have you guys found anything yet on your end?

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