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Old 09-01-2010, 08:04 PM   #31
Novusod

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Xelgad wrote:

This change if left unchecked could certainly have a very negative effect on raiding Brawlers, which is why we've already taken steps to counter that with the additional mitigation added to their self-buffs.  With the best defensive gear in the game, they will still see their mitigation fall (as each of the fighter classes will), but this does have the positive effect of making the class a bit less dependant on defensive gear.

Even with the self-buff my raid mit has fallen by over a 1000. That is not good considering I am my guild's main tank and will need to depend my defensive gear even more than before.

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Old 09-01-2010, 08:40 PM   #32
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Well crap.  I was pretty excited about the changes on test until this popped up.  Thats a massive nerf to raiding brawlers, even with the mit on our buff (though I do appreciate the effort to make us less gear/stance dependent).

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Old 09-01-2010, 08:59 PM   #33
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aslo defensive stance vs live and vs test

on test i only gain about 1100 physical mitigation

on live i gain 2000 physical mitigation going into defensive.

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Old 09-01-2010, 08:59 PM   #34
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Here's some encounters for you, Vigilant heroic zone AE's and insta target hits are kind of insane.   Even in the easy zone, the mob that randomly teleports to someone hits them for insane amounts, I've seen it do 20k on plate, 1 shots squishies every single time.  

Mob is killable if you have major dps and stuns etc, but for a pug going in there with not the best geared players it's just silly..   Lot of mobs in vig zone are like this.  Even the last mob in conservatory with his random punt proc 1 shots people with not good gear.

I went in there at lvl 88 and didn't get 1 shot with my TSO gear on, but the people who have level 90 mark gear, instance gear and treasured or MC stuff are screwed.

They can be warded of course, but since we are on a pvp server, there's what.. 2 shaman on the whole server? lols

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Old 09-01-2010, 09:20 PM   #35
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From the way i look at it this change will hurt heroic gear and heroic geared tanks. Also this will make bg armor even more superior in group content.

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Old 09-01-2010, 09:33 PM   #36
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I only end up losing roughly 4% mit, which i'm not too worried about. I am sure it effects better geared tanks more than me (i'm only in t1/t2 with some x2 mit jewellry)  However the statement that defensive stance should provide the same bonus is wrong. I get 3% on test and 4% on live. There is something thats messing it up

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Old 09-01-2010, 09:34 PM   #37
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Xelgad wrote:

This change is important because reaching the cap on mitigation causes some abilities, advancements and gear options to become irrelevent. That is obviously detrimental to gameplay and it can be detrimental to balance as well. If some classes have been balanced around having abilities to boost their mitigation and players end up capping out that stat then that element of balance is lost.

Thank you, Xelgad.  Great move! SMILEY

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Old 09-01-2010, 09:41 PM   #38
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As long as raid mobs are balanced as well, then yes great move. Problem is the mitigation boost is something we are used to. Having my mitigation knocked down to 2-3k less than it is now will be pretty big for some fights. Not to say it isn't needed, the % increases were wrong. However, this won't feel like anything but a huge nerf, even to those classes with the mit buffs. Honestly its something that could have waited til next expansion. Has all the potential of irritating the hell out of people even more.

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Old 09-01-2010, 09:49 PM   #39
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Ender has fallen wrote:

I only end up losing roughly 4% mit, which i'm not too worried about. I am sure it effects better geared tanks more than me (i'm only in t1/t2 with some x2 mit jewellry)  However the statement that defensive stance should provide the same bonus is wrong. I get 3% on test and 4% on live. There is something thats messing it up

Remember that a loss in mitigation, any loss, is more substantial than one might know at first.  Say you were at 75% mit on live, and you lost that 4% mit and are now at 71% mit.  

{[(New incoming damage divided by Old incoming damage)] minus 1} times 100 to put into percentage form

{[(100 - 71) / (100 - 75)] - 1} x 100 = 16%

This means you take 16% more physical damage (minus damage reductions from items or buffs) than you would have on live.  Even a 4% change is significant...

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Old 09-01-2010, 11:13 PM   #40
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Xelgad wrote:

ShamusOB wrote:

Brawlers are finnaly where they should be when it comes to tanking.   Your going to make it so brawlers are weak and lame again.  This fix is terribad because all of the Hard encounters this gear was useful for  are now going to be steam rollers with stupidily huge crit double attacks.  Leave it alone or scale back Hardmode auto attack tables because they already have stupidly huge aoes one shotting tanks.

This change if left unchecked could certainly have a very negative effect on raiding Brawlers, which is why we've already taken steps to counter that with the additional mitigation added to their self-buffs.  With the best defensive gear in the game, they will still see their mitigation fall (as each of the fighter classes will), but this does have the positive effect of making the class a bit less dependant on defensive gear.

Brildean wrote:

Are you got balance mobs frontal trauma ae's around this fix ? i mean having a max hit in front of 80k to 100k means that it will kill almost all tanks that stone skin through it.

We'll look into the frontal arcs on trauma AEs before pushing this Live.

1k mit increase on the absolutely crap monk self buff doesn't offset the amount of mit lost on this, you also are completely ruining monks numbing blows AA and monks AA's sucked to begin with.  All you are really doing is forcing monks to get +physical gear instead of mit increase you aren't opening up gear choices at all you are taking away our choices when we finally had enough mit to consider actually not stacking every slot with +mit.

Basically you are screwing over any tanks that don't have damage reduction.  I look forward to being able to buff my mit up to the old levels through station cash though GG.  1 step forward for 2 steps back, great.

This is a disaster in the making.

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Old 09-01-2010, 11:17 PM   #41
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Brildean wrote:

From the way i look at it this change will hurt heroic gear and heroic geared tanks. Also this will make bg armor even more superior in group content.

I really hope this isn't the case in both points. My tank is an alt with mostly heroic gear, doing 90% heroic content when I play her. Now, I raid plenty, just not with the that character. As Brynhild pointed out earlier mobs in Vigilant heroic zones and that last mob in Conservatory can slam you hard already if you're not in top-notch gear, and if this goes into effect I'm concerned about survivability if other factors aren't looked into and balanced properly.

And in regards to BG gear I'm hoping I won't have to PvP just to survive in PvE after this takes effect. I physically can't do BG. I realize very few people are gimpy like myself IRL, but still. Folks should be able to survive decently in heroic PvE content with the drops they get from Heroic PvE instances and not have to go out of PvE to do this.

All that said, I am glad that the bug was caught and looked into. I just hope that by fixing this bug that other issues like frontal arcs, fixing +parry and the like will be tweaked and balanced as necessary.

P.S. My alt tank is a Paladin, but for the first time ever I am actually thinking to dumping her and betraying to SK depending on how this plays out. I'm not after a class that's OP, I'm just concerned her survivability may take too much of a nosedive to be worth me playing her as a Paladin after the fighter heal nerf and this bug fix together. A look into balancing out the class itself would be greatly appreciated.

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Old 09-01-2010, 11:38 PM   #42
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This is absolutely devastating to monks.  It horribly unbalances us as compared even to bruisers.  Our mythical buff was changed at the beginning of the expansion to give +4 mit increase instead of raising our mitigation by a flat amount, and that 4% was balanced under the "bugged" system that currently exists on live.  There is no way that the 4% mit increase monks have on our mythical is balanced against the 10% damage reduction that bruisers have.  You're going to need to tweak us a LOT to keep from destroying monks entirely with this.

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Old 09-02-2010, 12:49 AM   #43
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Well OK so we had the bug for years. Are you going to fix the mobs to where they don't do so much damage.  I'm like nerfing things to balance out certain classes is not good, but then we still got to fight the mobs at the same strength.

So if your going to Nerf this then you need to Nerf the mobs, or you just need to give up on it.

To fighter nerfs in a row is not even funny.

 I lost 915 points of mitigation,  so I calculated it as a 14.5% drop in mitigation. from 6295 to 5380 on my sk.

 Oh can I add another question, how come it is just tanks?

My other toons did not have this bug, I checked my warlock and his mitigation stayed the same, but then is a mear 1800,  so why is it only tanks and not the other classes, if it were a bug wh are my yellow mitigation adornments not being affected?

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Old 09-02-2010, 01:08 AM   #44
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differnce between my monk on live in def gear.. and monk on test in same gear. with this new 1169 mit buff on inner calm... monk on test  in def stance with same gear has 3k lower mit.. about 10% lower mitigation....  and offence and deff stance differnce is only about 800 mit..   now on test.. full dps gear in def stand and full tank gear in def stance.. is only a 600 mit differnce between the two..   oh well..  back to being worst tanks..

ps oooh ya.. our myth buff is now basicly 100 mit.. lols.. compared to brusiers 10% damage reduction.

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Old 09-02-2010, 03:08 AM   #45
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Xelgad wrote:

ShamusOB wrote:

Brawlers are finnaly where they should be when it comes to tanking.   Your going to make it so brawlers are weak and lame again.  This fix is terribad because all of the Hard encounters this gear was useful for  are now going to be steam rollers with stupidily huge crit double attacks.  Leave it alone or scale back Hardmode auto attack tables because they already have stupidly huge aoes one shotting tanks.

This change if left unchecked could certainly have a very negative effect on raiding Brawlers, which is why we've already taken steps to counter that with the additional mitigation added to their self-buffs.  With the best defensive gear in the game, they will still see their mitigation fall (as each of the fighter classes will), but this does have the positive effect of making the class a bit less dependant on defensive gear.

You do know this made the ENTIRE defensive set for brawlers worthless. The amount of mitigation gained from in entire defensive set with these adornments barely equals 2% absorbtion. The AA that increase mit adds no change to absorbtion. 

Honestly brawlers will likely be unable to tank after this change unless the content is already easy farm mode for a raid. We are talking about a ~10% increase in physical damage for brawlers. 

If you make this change the MONK MYTH buff and Numbing blows AA and the bruiser AA hardened skin need to be 5x the amount given and I am totally serious right now it offers NO increase in absorbtion. 

The BRAWLER defensive set needs to have the % ARMOUR mit increaser at least double the amount given to plate. (there was a reason brawlers have 25%mitigation increase on defensive stance compared to plates defensive stances 15%. We received considerably less mitigation from the % buffs)

I would also recommend making BRUISER  Bruising Spirit line of spell PERMANENT duration and have the AA instead decrease the maintained health cost by half. Also REMOVE the DAZE from rockskin to make it usable. 

This change effected every brawler and ~1000 mitigation is no where remotely close to the 10% loss in absorption that brawler lost. 

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Old 09-02-2010, 03:22 AM   #46
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Gungo wrote:

Honestly brawlers will likely be unable to tank after this change unless the content is already easy farm mode for a raid. We are talking about a ~10% increase in physical damage for brawlers. 

As I stated above, its more than a 10% increase in incoming physical damage for a plate tank, so my guess is the incoming damage for Monks is going to be considerably larger.  From what I understand your mitigation was decreased by 10% which assuming that was from say 70% down to 60% mitigation, you are looking at an incoming physical damage increase of over 30%.

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Old 09-02-2010, 03:38 AM   #47
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Yay for double attacks being able to insta-kill brawlers again.
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Old 09-02-2010, 05:00 AM   #48
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All raid mobs and most heroic mobs are over level 90 so displayed mitigation figures are inaccurate unless you take into account the equation / x 100 to get your armor effectiveness as a % against the monster you are fighting. To get the true value of the mitigation of an armor item then multiply the mitigation value with your result of this equation. The user interface values are mostly useless unless you pvp or solo lvl 90 mobs only.

Currently the mitigation cap vs a level 90 monster is approximately 13500 (75%) mitigation. The problem is that the true cap depends on the level of the monster that you fight and since most heroic content and raid monsters are 92-98 you need at least another 3-9% more mitigation than displayed to reach the cap. As you progress into raiding it becomes more and more important to reach higher values of mitigation and in particular when dealing with hard mode encounters.

With the exception of tanks in full defensive t4 sentinel's fate sets (eg Hulking plate set) very few tanks are capable of actually reaching mitigation cap.

When raid mobs can double attack with auto attack on the main tank for approximately18-20k per hit (vigilant x2 end boss) with about 11000 mitigation (T1 defensive plate raid gear and main tank buffs) it becomes very important to have high values of mitigation. Due to this impending bug fix there is no way to make up the physical mitigation to counteract the loss and so it is harder for guilds to progress. Combine this with the loss in survivability to all tanks from the fighter heal crit nerf there is a reduced motivation for people to continue to play tanks.

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Old 09-02-2010, 05:41 AM   #49
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Monk Myth Mitt increaser changed to 10% damage reduction

Numbing blows changed to 1% per rank damage reduction

All the plus Mitt gear changed those 1% and 1.5% are underpowered on raid gear when you can get the same % from herioc zones. Double the % per gear piece

Both brawlers defensive stances change to 30-35% Mitt modifier, the lost mitt on test is pretty huge, losing 3k mitt is significant thats not a small bug thats a huge (beeping) mistake that has been around and was pointed out to you guys a cpl years ago.

Thats a start so we can at least be crappy tanks and not worthless

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Old 09-02-2010, 06:25 AM   #50
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Man - I go out of town for a few days and you all try your hardest to ruin my character class.

Blanka and Gungo have said it very well.  Without considerable other changes to mechanics - most particularly the monk myth buff and numbing blows AA, this change will, once again, make it unviable for monks to raid tank.  If the change to the self buff was intended to make us less dependent on defensive gear, then you have more than reversed that with these changes.

Don't let this go live without fixing it.

Please.

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Old 09-02-2010, 06:45 AM   #51
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Don't worry guys, I'm sure the 10%-more-incoming-damage and useless AAs for brawlers won't go live without suitable compensation.  Just like the 45%-healing-loss for paladins and their invalidated 80+ healing AAs didn't.

(It's all part of the biennial nerf-everyone-so-the-expansion-with-no-level-cap-increase has something to give back... happens every time.)

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Old 09-02-2010, 08:12 AM   #52
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Nice! I like how this is a "bug," because to fix it would be a nerf, when in any other context, you'd call it 'We want to change how this works because it's working too well' mechanics change. Kind of like how no one likes a "tax increase," but when you phrase it as bond, or adjustment for an existing tax no one bats an eye.

There are a lot of things in this game that need fixing or make no sense (i.e. are "bugs") but you can always be assured that the ones that give the players an advantage will always be fixed right away, and the consequences and/or repercusions of the fix..? Eh, maybe in a year if you're lucky. They're busy people and fixing stuff they broke in order to fix other stuff that they want to fix right away is low priority, after all.

Sorry, that came out sounding really bitter, but I was really, really hoping that my monk might finally be considered a tank for once, and this change kind of brings that hope screaming back down to earth in a ball of flames. *sigh*

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Old 09-02-2010, 10:33 AM   #53
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NamaeZero wrote:

Nice! I like how this is a "bug," because to fix it would be a nerf, when in any other context, you'd call it 'We want to change how this works because it's working too well' mechanics change.

If something say it gives you 10% more mitigation and gives you 30% more instead, that's a bug. There's no way around that, it's obviously giving the wrong number. Yes it nerfs your mitigation but now your items will give you the amount they have said they would rather than giving you extra.

Now if it said and gave 10% more mitigation and they changed it to be 5% instead, that would be an outright nerf.

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Old 09-02-2010, 10:42 AM   #54
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headshot !

"brawler viability for raid tanking" is down !

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Old 09-02-2010, 11:10 AM   #55
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lost 3.1k mit on my sk on test ! ouch!  more testing/thoughts to come.

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Old 09-02-2010, 11:19 AM   #56
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Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:

If something say it gives you 10% more mitigation and gives you 30% more instead, that's a bug. There's no way around that, it's obviously giving the wrong number. Yes it nerfs your mitigation but now your items will give you the amount they have said they would rather than giving you extra.

Now if it said and gave 10% more mitigation and they changed it to be 5% instead, that would be an outright nerf.

Ah, but they have changed what that % means and how it is applied. The old system of % mitigation makes sense if you view it in a particular way, and that is the way it has worked for years. However, what they are saying is that it should work in this other way, which makes what currently provides a 30% overall increase into a 10% one, and thus, a nerf. It's a magician's choice trick, you manipulate the perception of the rules to get the outcome you want, and it's impossible to detect the deception because you don't understand the rules themselves. But you can't understand the rules because they are never told to you in advance, or in this case, ever.

What I'm saying is that labeling this as a 'bug' is deceptive. This is a mechanics change, framed in such a way as to be more palatable to people who like them fixing "bugs." What I consider a bug is things like GU57's damaging of the quest book, so you cannot see partial step completions happen in another party member's quest book. This is a bug to me because it's completely transparent how the quest journal should work, but it currently doesn't. It's not clear how much or what formulas they are using or where using to figure or re-figure this change.

Or in another context, Monks have had the ability to cap their haste just with just their class abilities for a very long time, to the point where Haste from anything else is worthless to a monk. Nothing has been done on this front by the Devs, and AFAIK it's not even been openly acknowledged as an issue. However, when it becomes possible and relatively easy for Fighter classes to cap their mitigation suddenly "This change is important because reaching the cap on mitigation causes some abilities, advancements and gear options to become irrelevent. That is obviously detrimental to gameplay and it can be detrimental to balance as well." So Fighter Mitigation capping is a bug, but Monk Haste capping isn't? What about Crit Chance capping, lots of people can cap their Crit Chance. Doesn't that make abilities, advancements and gear with Crit Chance irrelevant when it happens? Why isn't that an issue too, under that logic?

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Old 09-02-2010, 11:23 AM   #57
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why does my warden on live with no +mit pieces have more mit then my sk on test ???

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Old 09-02-2010, 11:44 AM   #58
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oh...you now mean that the Guardian temp mit buffs are worth something?

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Old 09-02-2010, 11:59 AM   #59
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ruehs1 wrote:

oh...you now mean that the Guardian temp mit buffs are worth something?

Hmmm are we thinking that maybe a certain class is getting all the love while other fighter classes get nerfed so that guardians go to be the front line tank.  

Sure starting to look that way,  first a swipe at paladins, now a swipe at monks.  I have to wonder what they are fixing to do to sk's. I know all fighter classes basically took a hit with these fighter nerfs but certain classes seam to be doing quite well.

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Old 09-02-2010, 12:01 PM   #60
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ruehs1 wrote:

oh...you now mean that the Guardian temp mit buffs are worth something?

changed my mind.  Just want to input on one thing.  Warrior group mit buffs should not help other fighters.  and healer group mit buffs should stack properly as opposed to only using the highest value... if your going to fix "bugs" fix all of them please.

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