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Old 05-26-2010, 03:32 AM   #31
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Sydares wrote:

Gninja wrote:

nope

Then that was the most vague thing ever.

The levers tricked us into thinking we were missing something.

Yeah, we thought the lever there was for that encounter at first as well. That fight seemed characteristically un-SF-like in that it didn't really have that blantant "You need to do X!" instruction. Which is fine (that's how most raidiing was pre-SF), but given that this is supposed to be a low-end raid zone for SF, a buff on the mobs that shows that they need to be separated might be useful for new raiders.

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Old 05-26-2010, 03:41 AM   #32
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On the Ice Maiden fight - the last one before the dragon - there were some warping issues at the beginning where she is supposed to come down from her platform. She would sometimes be under the ground and occasionally she would spawn the shards under ground as well.

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Old 05-26-2010, 10:25 AM   #33
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As a raider the zone is something you do once to find out what it is all about, after that never return to it. The loot is so horrid, even if I was joining a PUG raid I would decline going in there and opt to do Vig X2 for loot that is on par with the harder X4 zones.

I did like most of the encounters, thought the chess board one was kinda buggy.

IMO 3/10 ....

Seriously, even people in PUG's can get better loot from WoE with less time spent.

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Old 05-26-2010, 12:30 PM   #34
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Gninja wrote:

I will look into the Corrival and Vrewwx first thing in the morning

Out of curiosity when the Corrival splits how many copies of himself spawn?

If i remember right we were getting 4 adds + dopple.. and as soon as it all poped, people would crash.  2 pulls we had over half the raid crash, and one pull we had 8 people crash, of coarse 5 of which were healers.  I never crashed on any of the pulls, so not sure if its a buff issue or not.  I am a gaurd.

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Old 05-26-2010, 12:35 PM   #35
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Ok, I was concerned that maybe his script was firing off multiple times causing some people to drop. But if there are only 4 adds there has to be something deeper. I will be looking into it first thing this morning.

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Old 05-26-2010, 12:55 PM   #36
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Odaufe and Kastus need some leeway added to them.  POTM, Coercer mythical buff added to fighter taunts, and other procs were causing the fail condition.  Also, the mem wipe when they are 1% apart from each other, due to one being brought down to the new plateau is a bit unfair, it should happen if they get say 5% apart from each other during the course of the fight at any time.  The fight is doable, and the concept is fun, but casual/pickup raids are going to have some real trouble with this fight.

The only other thing is, the loot is quite poor, worse than the original 3 zones loot on easy mode.  I understand the zone is intended to be easy-moderate, but the loot from the original zones on easy mode is quite a bit better.  I had assumed any armor dropping here would be the armor from the original zones, sadly no.  The weapons seemed to be lower damage than what most easy mode mobs from other zones are dropping and the jewelry was also sub-par.

If it cannot be upgraded, would it be possible to make those patterns or the items created from them transmuteable?  I guess it goes for every pattern created item in the game, but the zone is cool, the scripts are cool, but there really isn't much there for an established raid team, but if we were able to transmute all of the loot to get manas it would be more worth running.

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Old 05-26-2010, 01:30 PM   #37
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Gninja -

First off I do completely understand that this is designed to be an "easy" zone.  We were able to clear the "hard" mode version of it last night without and real issue.  So while there may be a few issues with the scripts it certainly doesn't prevent the zone being cleared.

Now I really do want to like this zone because I absolutely love areas like Everfrost and Permafrost and I of course like the zone look and feel because of those things, but the zone has no replay value for anyone but the most casual of raiding guilds and even they would be better served by going to the x2 or doing easy mode clears in the original 3 raid zones due to the issues with loot.

The loot is very WoEish and once again I understand that it is an easy zone and risk/reward, but I still think it could be at least a little better.

If nothing else I would suggest beefing up the dragon at the end and make it a real hard mode encounter and give it the corresponding loot updates.  That would at least give people reasons to keep going back other than house items which I'm afraid higher-end guilds won't be going back for. 

The more casual guilds can still clear it on easy mode, but it will give a reason for others to go back as well.

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Old 05-26-2010, 01:37 PM   #38
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Undorett wrote:

Odaufe and Kastus need some leeway added to them.  POTM, Coercer mythical buff added to fighter taunts, and other procs were causing the fail condition.  Also, the mem wipe when they are 1% apart from each other, due to one being brought down to the new plateau is a bit unfair, it should happen if they get say 5% apart from each other during the course of the fight at any time.  The fight is doable, and the concept is fun, but casual/pickup raids are going to have some real trouble with this fight.

That is odd, when we finaly found out how to do it we had them maybe 40% apart at most without any memwipes and Kastus got killed while Odaufe was still at 20% or so.

I like the orginality (sp) of this fight.

Never mind it was the wrong fight, i should not post stuff to early in the morning!

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Old 05-26-2010, 01:46 PM   #39
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Ldarax wrote:

Undorett wrote:

Odaufe and Kastus need some leeway added to them.  POTM, Coercer mythical buff added to fighter taunts, and other procs were causing the fail condition.  Also, the mem wipe when they are 1% apart from each other, due to one being brought down to the new plateau is a bit unfair, it should happen if they get say 5% apart from each other during the course of the fight at any time.  The fight is doable, and the concept is fun, but casual/pickup raids are going to have some real trouble with this fight.

That is odd, when we finaly found out how to do it we had them maybe 40% apart at most without any memwipes and Kastus got killed while Odaufe was still at 20% or so.

I like the orginality (sp) of this fight.

Um...was this on test? Because when you actually kill the mob, it has combined into 1 mob, you do not kill them separately.

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Old 05-26-2010, 01:51 PM   #40
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My biggest complaint was that the chess puzzle is solvable by moving the bishop on the 2nd move instead of the knight.  However, if you take this approach you get the fail effect

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Old 05-26-2010, 01:59 PM   #41
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mugn wrote:

My biggest complaint was that the chess puzzle is solvable by moving the bishop on the 2nd move instead of the knight.  However, if you take this approach you get the fail effect

I had the same complaint.  We moved the bishop to put the king in check, and it just caused everything to attack.  IMO anything that keeps the king in check should be a valid move, up until the king gets loose, at which point he could call you names and spawn adds.

I realize that you probably can't actually deal with all possible permutations- and that probably this was lifted from a book of "classic endgame problems" with a specific solution in mind- but the mechanics really should let you either play out the game until you fail (and then spawn everything) or more tightly control what good moves are available, by putting other spots that would let you put the king in check under some sort of threat so that black could respond by doing something other than moving his king.

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Old 05-26-2010, 02:09 PM   #42
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I foolishly put my feedback in Zones and Population, but here it is again:

Just starting a feedback thread on this new raid zone.

We progressed about half the zone last night.  All the fights were really, really easy, the only challenge was figuring out the scripts, but the mobs were so weak, you generally could figure out the scripts without even dieing to failures.  Once you figured out the basic scripts, everything just falls down and dies.  I honestly believe our swash could trivially MT this zone the stuff is so squishy.

Keep in mind, I'm not in a hardcore guild, we're not killing any HM encounters atm, and our gear reflects it.

The mobs were all way too easy, and the loot reflected it.  Server discovery pieces that not even alts of alts needed, just straight to transmute fodder.

I know I read the targeted difficulty was easy Tox, but you failed to even reach that difficulty in the first 5 named, and the loot is significantly behind the quality of  easy tox.  In fact the loot is well behind heroic instances.

Now, beyond the easy kills and crappy loot, here is some additional feedback:

1) Universally of the 24 people zoned in:  Doing quests as a raid sucks, its not fun.  WoE was fine as the quest was basically work the zone.  Icy Keep had points where 24 people are running around in circles trying to fiqure out how to progress a quest.

2) Captain / Lieutenant fight really doesn't have any feedback from the encounter to solve the script.  In fact the items in the room only serve to confuse the issue.

3) Getting 24 people to zip it for a minute to solve chess solution was, um annoying, but some folks thought it was cool, while others went afk to find something else to do.  I'm sure with the solution posted on forums, the annoyance related will drop to nill.

4) The Frozen Corrival - There is a client crash bug when he splits.  About half the raid goes LD when it happens.  His script itself isn't difficult, and we understand exactly how to kill him.  What we don't understand is how to keep the eq2 client from crashing to finish the fight.  I'm assuming it's a spell effect animation, and we'll experiment with client settings to mitigate the client crash.

All in all though, the pattern gear is meh, the loot off the nameds are meh, and 24 people in my opinion are better off running heroic instances for progression than doing this zone.

Note: there are neck drop items with 6 and 2.5 potency dropping where treasured quest items have better stats.

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Old 05-26-2010, 02:16 PM   #43
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Kringus wrote:

I realize that you probably can't actually deal with all possible permutations- and that probably this was lifted from a book of "classic endgame problems" with a specific solution in mind- but the mechanics really should let you either play out the game until you fail (and then spawn everything) or more tightly control what good moves are available, by putting other spots that would let you put the king in check under some sort of threat so that black could respond by doing something other than moving his king.

The challenge was specifically to solve in 3 moves.

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Old 05-26-2010, 02:16 PM   #44
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Two issues with the zone:

1) The twins: Someone said that there is a way to avoid the constant memwipes before they merge. Perhaps that is so, but it is flaky at best. Several times during the fight we had them running around trying to kill people for a good minute before they decided to merge. Seemed to smooth out in the last 30% but still, was annoying.

2) My main issue: There will be virtually no repeatability for this zone. People may do it once or twice, to get everyone their quest completions and AAs, but that's it. The problem is that the zone does not offer any reward that's worthwhile. Even easy-mode loot (from fights which are on-par with Icy Keep's difficulty, if not easier) is significantly better and quicker to get for first-time raiders.

Yes, the zone is very light on (does it even have any?) AEs, so first-timers will not have a hard time if their resists are low. Other than that, it's straight-forward once the strategy for the few encounters that may seem tricky at first is found. At the same time, instead of spending 3 hours doing this zone, a really, really casual raid force could clear Toxxulia (easy mode) in 30-45 minutes, Labs (perhaps skipping the crab if they're really that casual) up to (or even including) Xilaxis in an hour and a half, and kill up to the twins (easy) in Palace, getting 3x the loot and 10x the quality in about 30-45 minutes.

/shrug

My 2c.

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Old 05-26-2010, 02:21 PM   #45
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Haha yeah we moved the bishop and wiped.

Few other things that popped up (some of these have been mentioned before):

We had an issue where our tank got knocked in the air and Corrival broke.  His leash range seems pretty short.

There really weren't any hints on what to do with the 2 nameds that have to be split.

The x2 trash mobs have no loot symbols and seem to have a lot of hp for x2's.  I don't see why they shouldn't be x4 instead, or at least be able to drop loot.

It would be nice if the quest npc(s) were more accessible since you need to talk to him from time to time.  Not sure the best way to do this and keep the storyline going, but it's somewhat tedious as it is now.

The loot is just not good enough to justify the time spent clearing the zone.  I think the stats on the armor items need to be closer to SF T1 gear.  The stats on the jewelry items need to be closer to what you can get in the Vigilant x2.  Some items seemed ok, others needed a tiny bump, and a few were just terrible.

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Old 05-26-2010, 02:28 PM   #46
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mugn wrote:

My biggest complaint was that the chess puzzle is solvable by moving the bishop on the 2nd move instead of the knight.  However, if you take this approach you get the fail effect

Actually, while moving the bishop does put the king in check it does not put him in checkmate and it also leaves him multiple ways to move away from being in check which doesnt allow you to beat him in 3 moves like the Corrival states at the beginning SMILEY

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Old 05-26-2010, 02:29 PM   #47
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Atan@Unrest wrote:

Kringus wrote:

I realize that you probably can't actually deal with all possible permutations- and that probably this was lifted from a book of "classic endgame problems" with a specific solution in mind- but the mechanics really should let you either play out the game until you fail (and then spawn everything) or more tightly control what good moves are available, by putting other spots that would let you put the king in check under some sort of threat so that black could respond by doing something other than moving his king.

The challenge was specifically to solve in 3 moves.

Not just that, but IIRC when we looked at it last night, moving the bishop to put the king in check on the second move does not set you up for a checkmate on the third. It makes sense to me that it would attack then, because you have at that point failed the challenge. (EDIT: Bah, look, sniped by Gninja SMILEY )

It would be nice to see the Corrival's "dark" ice pieces actually appear blackish however. There's some broken ones off to the side that are black, but on the actual board you have to look at the names since most of them look alike. It took us 5-10 minutes before we realized the one rook in the back left corner (when facing the Corrival) was actually our piece.

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Old 05-26-2010, 02:47 PM   #48
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Gninja wrote:

mugn wrote:

My biggest complaint was that the chess puzzle is solvable by moving the bishop on the 2nd move instead of the knight.  However, if you take this approach you get the fail effect

Actually, while moving the bishop does put the king in check it does not put him in checkmate and it also leaves him multiple ways to move away from being in check which doesnt allow you to beat him in 3 moves like the Corrival states at the beginning

Sorry, I should be clear- I am giving feedback on the "feel" of this encounter, not whether it meets the letter of the law. SMILEY

When you move the second piece, and it is not the second piece intended to be moved, the fail condition is met.  IMO this is not right- instead the fail condition should occur when you move a third piece and checkmate is not achieved.  This makes the puzzle MORE challenging, since you have to move at least three pieces before you know if you fail- as is, if you move the wrong piece at any time you know immediately that it was wrong.  That's a switchthrowing process of elimination, not chess.

It would have been really cool to play the game from the start SMILEY as a hard mode option.

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Old 05-26-2010, 02:52 PM   #49
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Due to limitations I wasnt able to have the entire match or have it not check till the 3rd piece was moved. My initial intentions were for the game to be more robust, unfortunately it just didn't work out.

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Old 05-26-2010, 03:35 PM   #50
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Gninja wrote:

Due to limitations I wasnt able to have the entire match or have it not check till the 3rd piece was moved. My initial intentions were for the game to be more robust, unfortunately it just didn't work out.

Well the board room was impressive- I think everyone who was old enough immediately flashed to Archon and/or Battlechess. SMILEY   And the end result once the name died was fun too.

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Old 05-26-2010, 07:00 PM   #51
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We had the same issue with the chessboard boss crashing over half our raid (including our MT and healers) every time he split.  Also, besides a few of the weapons, we didn't really see anything as an upgrade for anyone even as a relatively casual guild, but obviously we haven't seen everything..

Otherwise, awesome zone SMILEY

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Old 05-26-2010, 07:20 PM   #52
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Gave up last night after multiple crashes, many times over, on the Chess Board encounter.

Loot up to that point was a couple joke... I wouldn't of taken any of it LAST expansion.

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Old 05-26-2010, 10:13 PM   #53
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They should tone the mobs in this zone down, make it a x2. There then it would be a WoE type zone with rewards conductive to the challenge.

x4 easy mode is honestly a bad idea. 12 person pick up raid is much easier to get going and to get the classes ya need that was another reason WoE was so popular.

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Old 05-26-2010, 10:37 PM   #54
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Corrival crashed most of us every pull on splits, was dying to get to debitino too

Loot, not too bad for the difficulty, some of could maybe do with a slight tweak

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Old 05-27-2010, 12:27 AM   #55
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every piece of loot in this zone should just be wiped off your database, and redone.

maybe keep vrewwx loot. but other then that....

start over, its so bad, theres nothing worth salvaging. its not even on par with easy mode tox loot.

this zone should be retierd to a X2 or flat out redone.

its really really bad.

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Old 05-27-2010, 12:41 AM   #56
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On the chess fight, if your particals are turned down you cant see peices/named

Also had 1/2 the raid crash when we pulled named on 5/26 10:40pm EDT and again at 10:46pm EDT and again at 11:01.

Also when he splits at 75% I cant see him anymore

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Old 05-27-2010, 01:38 AM   #57
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My room mate was having a really strange bug where when she was in the zone, all of our raid members and attackable npcs appeared to be waiting at the zone entrance. She could not progress past the chimney without falling through the zone. Although she could move and explore other areas, to the rest of us she appeared to be running in place back at the zone entrance.

Could not resolve in-game by camping our or re-zoning. This is the first time it has happened for her. Trying a full-file scan.

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Old 05-27-2010, 01:44 AM   #58
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Oh crap. I have to know chess?

*headdesk*

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Old 05-27-2010, 01:57 AM   #59
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For everyone saying the loot is terrible, duh.

They should have made it a little more clear that the zone was a waste of time for high end guilds, or had a reason beyond AA for running it at least once. A "flawless charm" type raidwide reward for one slot would have been nice, so you don't have to run it repeatedly for one or two decent items.

The zone is easy. Easier than Vigilant x2.

The loot is bad. Worse than the vigilant x2.

I see no problem with those two statements.. more people should mean you get MORE loot, not better loot.

You can take a group capable of clearing the x2 and get through most of this new zone guaranteed.

That being said, it was one of the most fun zones to run through the first time that I have done. Figuring some of those fights out provided a very triumphant feeling, even if the loot didn't support it. 

This zone would do well to have some shiny collections or something in it, it would fit the atmosphere well.

Looking forward to Underfoot Depths.

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Old 05-27-2010, 03:12 AM   #60
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Half of our raid force also crashed on the Corrival fight.

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