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Old 04-09-2009, 05:03 PM   #31
Traldan Omegafyre

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Aeralik wrote:

With a single version it would be pretty easy to update the spell to remove any existing hearts and then replace them with the new version.  Right now there are just so many different hearts and shards to keep track of for each tier and the system has to check your inventory each cast for all the different types as well.  This just adds unnecessary complexity to things when the spell really has a simple purpose to summon an item which people then use when desired.

That's all well and good, but the issue remains that these items are BARELY desired.  They're nearly completely deprecated with all the power-proccing gear, etc.  If you're going to make them easier to use, consider also making them useful.

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Old 04-09-2009, 06:24 PM   #32
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My question on this whole thing is there are 2 versions for T8... Single and Group/Raid spells. If you combine "the summoner heart and shard spells into just one spell for each class" will it then become a group only cast? Or a single target only cast? If its group only, and the current restrictions remain, it will be a complete hassle to summoners to have to drain almost all their power every time one person needs a new heart/shard. If its single target, the hassle of having to recast over and over and over for the people that want them is back again.

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Old 04-09-2009, 06:43 PM   #33
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What if he made it so you spend the amount of power based on how many players get hearts -- if you cast the spell and 4 people get hearts, you lose x4 power.  If 24 people get hearts you lose x24 power which would be the max, similar to how much power is spent on the raid version currently.

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Old 04-09-2009, 06:51 PM   #34
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Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:

What if he made it so you spend the amount of power based on how many players get hearts -- if you cast the spell and 4 people get hearts, you lose x4 power.  If 24 people get hearts you lose x24 power which would be the max, similar to how much power is spent on the raid version currently.

Here's the problem with that:

Aeralik wrote:

With a single version it would be pretty easy to update the spell to remove any existing hearts and then replace them with the new version.  Right now there are just so many different hearts and shards to keep track of for each tier and the system has to check your inventory each cast for all the different types as well.  This just adds unnecessary complexity to things when the spell really has a simple purpose to summon an item which people then use when desired.

So you would always be losing the max amount of power if it casts for everyone in the group/raid, because it would check everyone's inventory, delete all the hearts they already had, and give everyone brand new ones.

I say keep the raid-wide separate from the single-target.

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Old 04-09-2009, 06:52 PM   #35
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Ok. My understanding and a few questions I dont see answered...For demonstration and discussion lets deal with the conj so we will say the spell is now called "SHARDS".

  1. All previous versions of the spell would now be called "SHARDS"
  2. All varying tiers of the spell (App, Adept, Master) would be converted to the highest tier obtained thus far?? If you have anything lower than the 71-80 masters, when you reach the 71-80 you would automatically get the Master version for those? If this is the case, what would be the point of ever looking for this spell again if you have 1 of any mastered version of it? Doesnt this devalue the future versions of this spell thus making an argument for not adding to its usefulness? IE - its a freebie, it cant be really all that useful?
  3. With the SOE propensity to not reimburse players for previous actions, I personally get a little miffed at this because I have spent quite a bit of farming time and coin on trying to acquire every master at every level. How are those going to be handeld if they are now to be deleted from the game?
  4. With the 2 71-80 spells be the same spell with differerent casting requirements. 1 for single target direct cast that can be used in-combat and a 2nd one for group/raidwide that can only be cast out of combat?
  5. If separate tiers (App/Adept/Master) of the spell will still exist how does this help with the statement of allowing the casting procedure to evaluate the inventory and replace the items with current items? Seems it will still be looking for Shards App1, App2, App4, Adept1, Adept 3, Master1 or am I missing something?

It would seem that if #5 is true then going with the simple solution of renaming the output item to "SHARDS (tier)" could adeuqately solve the problem and allow for the casting procedure to replace the inventory without having to re-tool the entire spell line with regards to naming and upgrades.

On another note, I think this spell is relatively useless as it is now and provides more inconvenience for summoners than actual value. We become candy dispensers for these little "when all else fails" items to get enough power for 1-2 spells casts. There just seems to be little return on the investment IMO but I am trying to keep an open mind for the sake of discussion. Look forward to getting your answers to these questions.

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Old 04-09-2009, 07:02 PM   #36
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Lodrelhai wrote:

Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:

What if he made it so you spend the amount of power based on how many players get hearts -- if you cast the spell and 4 people get hearts, you lose x4 power.  If 24 people get hearts you lose x24 power which would be the max, similar to how much power is spent on the raid version currently.

Here's the problem with that:

Aeralik wrote:

With a single version it would be pretty easy to update the spell to remove any existing hearts and then replace them with the new version.  Right now there are just so many different hearts and shards to keep track of for each tier and the system has to check your inventory each cast for all the different types as well.  This just adds unnecessary complexity to things when the spell really has a simple purpose to summon an item which people then use when desired.

So you would always be losing the max amount of power if it casts for everyone in the group/raid, because it would check everyone's inventory, delete all the hearts they already had, and give everyone brand new ones.

I say keep the raid-wide separate from the single-target.

You're not getting what I was saying.  For every heart/shard cast it would cost x amount of power.  If you have a full raid, you replace all 24 and lose the associated power for casting it.  That's the same as it works now, you still lose max power for casting to a raid of 24, except nobody has to remember to delete their old ones.  If you're in a group, you still use the one and only shard spell, but now it only costs power to cast for 6.  If you're solo, you cast that same spell and it costs the same as single shards cost now power-wise.

(PS: If you are referring to casting a single shard while in a raid formation, you would just target that person.  Casting without a target would do the whole raid/group.  Maybe that's where I was unclear.)

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Old 04-09-2009, 07:30 PM   #37
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Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:

(PS: If you are referring to casting a single shard while in a raid formation, you would just target that person.  Casting without a target would do the whole raid/group.  Maybe that's where I was unclear.)

That's what I was getting at.  If I'm in a raid and one person is out of shards but everyone else still has a couple, I don't want to lose 80% of my power just to restock that one person.

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Old 04-09-2009, 07:45 PM   #38
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What is the purpose of the outrageous power cost on the raid-wide shards/hearts anyway?  It's an out-of-combat spell only, so why not make it cost the same power as casting the single target version?  I don't see anything grossly overpowering with a change like that. 

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Old 04-09-2009, 08:29 PM   #39
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Sedenten wrote:

What is the purpose of the outrageous power cost on the raid-wide shards/hearts anyway?  It's an out-of-combat spell only, so why not make it cost the same power as casting the single target version?  I don't see anything grossly overpowering with a change like that. 

Because it discourages you from casting it immediately before pulling an encounter. And at least in theory it's a powerful thing to give everyone clickable mana like that. To be honest, it's largely a non-issue.

For the record, single-target hearts and shards currently cost HP to summon, not Power. And no one complains about the HP cost of shards because it doesn't affect us to summon them (unlike EQ1, where it did cost Mana to summon them).

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Old 04-09-2009, 08:56 PM   #40
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To me the 80% power cost to cast raid wide shards as always been far out of balance with the quality of the item casted.  To lose that much power casting an item with such a low benefit to anyone is ridiculous.  If they are going to have us use that much power then at least upgrade the item so it's worth something.  Better yet since SOE wants to "fix" the shards, how about doing away with them all toghether and giving us something to make us more raid viable?  As it is now, Conjurors have a tough time getting raid slots, why doesn't SOE help fix that?

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Old 04-09-2009, 09:39 PM   #41
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I agree you would need two spells, one single target the other MGB. You wouldn't even need to run a check for 2 types of heart/shards just have them cast the same kind. Now for the upgrades people QQ about having to mentor down to get. Just have any move of equal lvl to the spell or grater capable of dropping the spell. Thinking about it, this mechanics should be applied to all spells/ca. Always found it redundant having to learn the same spell over but just for a new level.
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Old 04-10-2009, 08:05 AM   #42
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Lantis@Antonia Bayle wrote:

This game already has mechanics involving level-based scaling

If that system worked, the fighter revamp would not have been needed.

With a percentage based system, it does the same thing reguardless of level. Its hard to say what is going to happen in T9 or T10, but one thing is certian, 10% power will always be 10% power.

The other factor in this, instead of the quality/usefulness of the heart or shard beaing in the spell cast, if they were made percentage based, the quality of it (the amount of power returned) is based on the users group setup, buffs and gear. Some will see that as a good thing, some will see it as a negative.

The only thing I would add to anything like this is that the cost and heal should be slightly altered for each archtype (fighters should use less HP etc).

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Old 04-10-2009, 08:46 AM   #43
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Honestly, how often does anyone even USE the hearts and shards anymore?  Really in the big scheme of things, if the hearts and shards are making/breaking your character, then you need more power regen.  I don't see anything wrong with popping the manastone and maybe a couple potions, but if you are constantly burning your manastone, potions, hearts and shards just to keep your power, there is something else that is wrong that needs to be addressed more than whether or not you get an ample supply of hearts and shards because every class in a "decent" group or raid setup should have absolutely no problem with power even without power procing gear on.

As for the usefullness of the shards, why not do something really grand and give the summoner's a new set of AAs in their next tree or something that allows them to chose certain buffs to add to the heart/shard as a temp buff for the user?  Maybe 1 point in this AA gives another 1% heal/melee/ or spell crit chance, and 1 point into this AA gives the user +25 spell/heal/combat art bonus all of which lasts for say 30 seconds.  You could have an entire sub category in an AA tree that gives options of things that could be added to the hearts/shards and certain ones do not allow you to mix other ones so that they don't become too stacked.  That coupled with the power regenerated (if it's made a little higher amount so that it actually is worth using for power reasons) would make the hearts and shards VERY desired and would make at minimum a spot on the raid open for each of the summoners.  Seeing as nothings going to change about the minimum number of tanks desired on raids, I don't see why you can't at least contribute that tiny little incentive and make use of one of those other slots that was supposed to be occupied by one of the total 6 fighters (assuming you wanted one of each class in the raid).  Most raids run with multiples of the same class because the variety of buffs/utility that a class brings just cannot compete to the damage rates that the more chosen classes can do, and you end up with some raids so rediculously stacked that they have 4+ coercers/assassins/brigands/w.e. each.  At least give a physical reason for the summoners to be desired and let them have a little bit of their cake.

As a side note, I can fully understand why you would want to condense the hearts/shards into the single/raid wide shard to reduce the number of calls to check inventory for each player to determine if they can get the shards, but seriously it really is not THAT needed purely because there are many other ways that the system's resource consumption could be reduced without affecting things that much.  Making hallmark quests deletable for example would surely reduce the number of quest calls made each time someone zones.  How many of those things do you think people carry around purely because they can't be deleted?  As for the checking for the hearts/shards if the player has them or not, I'm sure it is not too terribly hard to insert a tag boolean onto the player that (upon successful summon IF NOT inventory full returned) tags them as "containing a shard" until "shard" is used 3 times, destroyed, or character logs out, then delete tag AND THEN delete (list all shards/hearts spells and qualities respectively).  That in itself would do effectively the same thing and would reduce the number of spell calls.  The only task then is to see if it works with the client or not.  Assuming that the mission quests don't get their code changed every day to check themselves upon zoning to see if they are still in the same day and thus shareable, it would logically imply that the missions already function on something similar in principle that you could use for shard/heart detection and if not, then I'm sure that you could come up with SOMETHING similar function wise to that because it is increadibly unlikely that you can't insert some form of basic "if/then/tag until triggered x times/then delete tag" command string into the game.

Consolidating all of the hearts/shards into one is just the lazy way out of something that there otherwise is more than likely a way to program around to the same effect.  If you can't do that, then seriously the client is way to restrictive and you should just scap the hearts/shards all together and just give the summoner's a short durration buff that increases group member's power regeneration or something of the like that does what the hearts/shards were intended to allow summoners to do and call it good because that would be much better than butchering something of marginal usefullness and creating more confusion and layers of programing bureaucracy to muddle through.

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Old 04-10-2009, 12:42 PM   #44
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Noaani wrote:

Lantis@Antonia Bayle wrote:

This game already has mechanics involving level-based scaling

If that system worked, the fighter revamp would not have been needed.

With a percentage based system, it does the same thing reguardless of level. Its hard to say what is going to happen in T9 or T10, but one thing is certian, 10% power will always be 10% power.

The other factor in this, instead of the quality/usefulness of the heart or shard beaing in the spell cast, if they were made percentage based, the quality of it (the amount of power returned) is based on the users group setup, buffs and gear. Some will see that as a good thing, some will see it as a negative.

The only thing I would add to anything like this is that the cost and heal should be slightly altered for each archtype (fighters should use less HP etc).

A percentage-based cost would be a pain for tanks, or for anyone who just got temporary HP buffs.  And starting to take into account the class would make the spell pretty complex.  You would end up with something like:

When used:

If archtype is a figther, . Consumes 4% Health . Increases power by 10% of total health

If archtype is a mage,

 . Consumes 8% health, . Increases power by 10% of total health

If archtype is ...

You get the idea.  And then you won't solve the case where the character has had temporary buffs placed on it.

Making this linear would be fine.  That's pretty much how it's working right now, except that you have "milestones" placed by the various tiers of the spells.  You can use those milestones to achieve your efficiency curve, boosting it a bit to compensate the fact that right now this spell is no longer potent enough to deal with T8's crazy amounts of power people can get.

Fighter revamp?  I don't see what the fighter revamp has to do with level scaling.  That revamp was about (re)defining tank roles and how aggro is gained.

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Old 04-10-2009, 12:43 PM   #45
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They should also be somewhat improved IMO, summoners need all the help they can get.

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Old 04-12-2009, 09:05 AM   #46
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My experience with shards is this.  Groups:  I give everyone a shard.  We run a zone or more.  By the time we are done with the zones.  Guess what not one person used the shard.

Raids:  I cast raid wide shard.  Guess what 90% of the time I never get a tell asking for a shard.  The only raid zone I will ever get a tell for a shard is Levi.  That's it.

Back when I had single fabled shard, and raid wide adept 3.  I put Fabled, or adept in the marco when I casted it.  Only time I ever got a spam for shards after I casted them one, was that they didnt read it.  That's thier fault.

I dont need my shards that arent used anyway, changed into something that I might end up with a lesser spell level.

Sorry I worked to [Removed for Content] hard to get them both mastered. 

If you really want to do something with hearts and shards, then make them do something.  But the way the shards are, they dont need anything happening to them.

It really ticks me off to be honest, with all the other issues we have, SOE chooses to look into a spell that is not only a waste of a spell, not used, and just dont do a good job at all on giving back power.  That you (SOE) would waste are time with changing this.

Thanks alot, for nothing.

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Old 04-12-2009, 09:43 AM   #47
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Lantis@Antonia Bayle wrote:

When used:

If archtype is a figther, . Consumes 4% Health . Increases power by 10% of total health

If archtype is a mage,

 . Consumes 8% health, . Increases power by 10% of total health

If archtype is ...

You get the idea.  And then you won't solve the case where the character has had temporary buffs placed on it.

It could easily be done with 5 lines in the discription

Increases power of caster by 10%Reduces Health of caster by 20%   If Mage or PriestReduces Health of caster by 10%   If Fighter or Scout

Quite simple really.

And as to the "issue" of being used on players with buffs, nothing needs to be done to address that, because its not an issue. If a player uses a heart with temporary buffs, it still takes a percentage of his HP, and gives him a percentage of his power.

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Old 04-12-2009, 09:57 AM   #48
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(( Nothing is broken with the way things are implemented now, as seperate spells in seperate teirs. It is not complicated, difficult to understand or hard to use. There is no compelling reason to change something to something else just to "merge things". I would suggest SOE stop seeking to find things that are not actually broken to "fix", possibly introducing more bugs into the process, and instead LEAVE THINGS AS THEY ARE.

A clear "No thank you" from me. ))

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Old 04-12-2009, 10:13 AM   #49
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I think many of you are missing the point.

1. All spell names are being reworked, so reworking this one as an automatically scaling spell is not that much more work than renaming it anyway.  So it has nothing to do with priorities about what your classes need the most.  It's just a general cleaning up of the spell book.

2.  Read up about the Research Assistants.  They are coming.  If they make this a level 20ish spell that scales up to level 80 it means you can have your research assistant research this spell for you and you won't have to mentor for it.  Aquiring a level 20 master using the research assistant will take a lot less time than aquiring a level 80 master by using the research assistant.  They are practically giving away free master heart/shard spells to every summoner.

The only legitimate complaint remaining is about the effort some people put in to obtain the current masters, while other players will now be able to aquire it for free.  That's the way these games work though, and maybe non summoners will start using them more often if they only have to make one hotbar for it and that same hotbar doesn't have to be adjusted depending on the level and/or quality of the spell.

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Old 04-12-2009, 11:44 AM   #50
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Combining the hearts and shards is a great idea. My necromancer always casts them and although not everyone uses them, there are always a few that do, and who ask for more. I like my healers to receive them from others and, although I don't always use them, it's nice to know that there's a little backup there if needed. Of course there will always be those who say they shouldn't be needed because there are other ways of increasing mana. However, that's no reason to denigrate this method.

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Old 04-12-2009, 03:10 PM   #51
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Im not really understanding this. If I give a heart to a lvl 79 and a lvl 80 are they going to get a lvl 79 and lvl 80 heart? Or are they going to get a heart that is tier 72-80?

If they are going to base the % of regen X level these should be getting an upgrade since I heard our fabled hearts at lvl 80 were still only like level 40 something.

If you are not going to improve the regen, then you're basically just going to clean up the interface and trying to pretend you're actually doing something to benefit our lack of utility.

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Old 04-12-2009, 03:53 PM   #52
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Germs666 wrote:

Im not really understanding this. If I give a heart to a lvl 79 and a lvl 80 are they going to get a lvl 79 and lvl 80 heart? Or are they going to get a heart that is tier 72-80?

If they are going to base the % of regen X level these should be getting an upgrade since I heard our fabled hearts at lvl 80 were still only like level 40 something.

If you are not going to improve the regen, then you're basically just going to clean up the interface and trying to pretend you're actually doing something to benefit our lack of utility.

This particular change has nothing to do with your utility or lack of utility.   It's just something that they are considering changing since they are in the process of renaming all of the spells to a new format.  The discussion wasn't brought up to address class balance.  It's a completely different topic.

This change would either make it percentage based, or it would make the shard you cast base its effect on the level of the person recieving the shard.

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Old 04-13-2009, 03:33 AM   #53
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The reason they're doing the spell renaming is because they are trying to make life as a developer fixing/modifying spells easier and in certain cases increase the server to player connection efficiency.  Naturally, spells that leave an item in the player's inventory is a great place to start since it will send a request to see if that player has the item already, and with multiple versions, thats multiple checks, and with multiple people receiving hearts/shards for example in a raid wide cast, it's sending multiple checks for multiple types of mutliple items in multiple inventories.  Thats all that this merging is about.

The unfortunate side of it is that the developers still have not figured out that players overall don't really care about the changes ONLY if those changes are not effectively nerfing something that doesn't need to be nerfed or wasting time for something trivial.  If the developers would simply stop doing those 2 things, they would most likely find a remarkable amount of support from the playerbase.  But then again, that would be entirely way to efficient to do something worth while and there would have to be something inserted or a new layer or system created in order to complicate it and reduce it's efficiency.  God forbid logic be injected into the scenario.

Heres a fantastic idea.  Make updates from previous tier quests alot more common to obtain when its something like randomly obtained npc kill updates or mob drops.  If the quests that required you to farm npcs for silly updates on mobs that never drop where easier to obtain the updates for and if hallmark quests were deletable, there would be alot less requests to the server in relation to quests and it would vastly make up for the momentary spike in server requests when someone casts those silly shards that no one uses anymore because they've trivialized them to the point that you're hurting yourself more than helping when you use them.

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Old 04-13-2009, 07:01 AM   #54
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Personally I couldn't care less what you are doing with shards/hearts. If you asked me, just take them out of our spellbook completly and give us something useful for it.

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Old 04-13-2009, 08:01 AM   #55
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right... there is no power issue.  Make it a raidwide buff (shorttime whatever) which gives either heat/poisen resistance buff or a heat/poison dmg proc.. whatever but make it useful.

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Old 04-13-2009, 08:09 AM   #56
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these spells need so much work it seems foolhardy to make them a scaling spell.... before you have really worked out the best way to make them functional utility.

personally....chance to proc a dispersion trigger when clicked....there ya go...useful again.....at 20% chance when clicked....thats like 1 proc every 5min...hardly over the top.

could take that useless TSO AA and mebe have it increase the trigger chance.

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Old 04-14-2009, 09:07 PM   #57
Kriptini
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Aeralik wrote:

It seems redundant to have 5 versions plus a raidwide summon when you really only need one. 

Where is the logic behind getting rid of raidwide heart and shard spells?


"Okay, Conjuror, can we get shards?"

"Single target shard to Guardian!"

Thirty seconds.

"Single target shard to Templar!"

Thirty seconds.


Get the point? Keep these spells the way they are. If you DO choose to combine them, make two seperate spells for single-target and raidwide, but have the same Master upgrade them.

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Old 04-14-2009, 11:34 PM   #58
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Allie@Everfrost wrote:

Personally I couldn't care less what you are doing with shards/hearts. If you asked me, just take them out of our spellbook completly and give us something useful for it.

Amen!

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Old 04-15-2009, 12:15 PM   #59
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Tried to read up as much as possible on this before posting.  I have an 80 conjuror in mid to high end raiding.  Shards right now= almost useless.  If you guys want to change shards, start by simply fixing them.  If you had a Illy and a trouby in your group both running a power song, it would take them 3 to 4 tiks to make up the power that you would get from a shard, and guess what? you dont lose health!! 

Shards should be more effective on a longer re-use timer in my opinion.  Why not go in and change the shards to % based like earlier suggested?  You could even leave the spell having apps, adepts, and master. 

What i propose is along the lines of what someone stated earlier:

Recast 3 minutes

App I shard:

Restores 7% power;

Consumes 10% health;

   If fighter

Consumes 20% health;

  If mage or scout.

App II: 8%

App III: 9%

...

Adept III: 13%

Master I shard: Restores 15% power

Necro hearts could be the exact same as shards cept the health decrease and mana decrease done over time like its done now. 

I believe an upgrade of that will actually cause shards to be used as intended and will more than likely actually make us somewhat useful.  If you think its overpowered.. make the reuse longer!!!

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Old 04-15-2009, 02:22 PM   #60
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Aeralik wrote:

While we are doing the consistant naming conventions, I was thinking of combining the summoner heart and shard spells into just one spell for each class. It seems redundant to have 5 versions plus a raidwide summon when you really only need one.  The summoned shard would then scale in relation to the level of the player using it.  Overall it would be low impact I think and remove some levels of unnecessary redundancy.

Obviously, the new spell would pick up the name players choose.  It would also pick up the highest version of the line so if you had one mastered out then the resulting merged spell would be a master spell as well.  It's a small change overall but seems to fit in with the scope of going to consistant naming only in this case you really don't need all of the upgrades.

a.) If you already have a master version of the spell under the old naming convention it seems you would retain not loose a master version of the new one.  Likewise if your ad1, ad3, or app1 then your new naming convention spell retains that quality - you ahve lost no plat.

b.) I support the idea of the convention - as a MT I have my hot bars maxed with clickys and gear and resit macro gear changes and a ton of other things I need on the fly - I don't have time to keep switching between m1 and ad3 grp and raid hearts/shards based on the necro/conjys we have avail to us on any odd given night (yes - we use 2 summoners, as a former necro I make sure summoners always have a spot or two on any raid I am tanking).

c.) In regards to raid wide heart using to much mana - please, you can practically be at max mana within 20 seconds of casting that shard w/o needing a mana dump.  Also, even if your not, your lich is gonna be regenning you like crazy, as a necro you ave no need to be at full mana cause we are so [Removed for Content] power efficient we will get theri during the fight and maintain our parse.  Cast raid wide hearts, eat pet power, eat heart power, eat potion power, eat a signet if your really really feel you must, let bard and enchater pwer regen do its job while you rinse and repeat pet, heart, pot power consumption.  Non issue on the power of raid wide hearts.

d.) /Agree that hearts could provide slightly more utility but I would vote keep as is and give us back MANA WRACK.

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